SGOTM 23 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
turn 57
moved warrior spoted 1 spearman and 1 warrior.
traded for iron working which gave us -3 with Alexander but not with Joao. I see Iron next to Orleans.
Gifted alphabet to England. +3 in relations.
Gifted masonry to Joao, relations improve from +1 to +2.
turn 58
spoted a German axeman.
turn 59
Joao is moving out a settler and a warrior.
turn 60
Egypt wanted open borders. I declined.
Joao is moving to settle on top of iron.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC1600_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
moved warrior spoted 1 spearman and 1 warrior.
traded for iron working which gave us -3 with Alexander but not with Joao. I see Iron next to Orleans.
Gifted alphabet to England. +3 in relations.
Gifted masonry to Joao, relations improve from +1 to +2.
turn 58
spoted a German axeman.
turn 59
Joao is moving out a settler and a warrior.
turn 60
Egypt wanted open borders. I declined.
Joao is moving to settle on top of iron.
Spoiler :
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC1600_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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Nice work, Folket!
Horse Archers are still good against Protective Archers, since Horse Archers ignore First Strikes, meaning that they are not likely to do zero damage to the Archers.
Swordsmen are vulnerable to Axemen if Churchill were to get Copper and build some Axemen of his own. Of course, Horse Archers are vulnerable to Spearmen.
I'd probably stick with a mix of Axemen and Horse Archers, filling up our Galley space with Chariots, if necessary.
Ideally, we'll find a way to 2-pop-whip a Galley out of Orleans, then Chop, then 1-pop-whip another Galley, and be able to fill 4 Galleys with Units for the attack. I haven't checked to see exactly when Orleans can get to Size 4 to see when that approach would be feasible.
One thing still worth checking out is teleportation with our Galleys... if we can afford to delay whipping our second Galley out of XO Cognac by 1 turn and still teleport to 2 SE of London with 1 movement point remaining, then it would be worth delaying that whipping action for that second Galley by 1 turn.
Where exactly is it? Should we be considering changing our Worker micro?
How soon can we get our Iron online?
Horse Archers are still good against Protective Archers, since Horse Archers ignore First Strikes, meaning that they are not likely to do zero damage to the Archers.
Swordsmen are vulnerable to Axemen if Churchill were to get Copper and build some Axemen of his own. Of course, Horse Archers are vulnerable to Spearmen.
I'd probably stick with a mix of Axemen and Horse Archers, filling up our Galley space with Chariots, if necessary.
Ideally, we'll find a way to 2-pop-whip a Galley out of Orleans, then Chop, then 1-pop-whip another Galley, and be able to fill 4 Galleys with Units for the attack. I haven't checked to see exactly when Orleans can get to Size 4 to see when that approach would be feasible.
One thing still worth checking out is teleportation with our Galleys... if we can afford to delay whipping our second Galley out of XO Cognac by 1 turn and still teleport to 2 SE of London with 1 movement point remaining, then it would be worth delaying that whipping action for that second Galley by 1 turn.
That's interesting. If we have surplus Resources, we could consider getting it in trade (it will probably take 2 Resources) just to block her from trading it to another AI, which could earn her, say, Iron, or some other Resource that we wouldn't want her getting, plus possibly earning her an ally from the extra Diplo, plus possibly helping another AI to build more City Walls.
Do we know where that City got founded? What has our Warrior 1 been doing?
Whoops, never mind. I suppose that she has already traded that Resource with someone.
Dhoomstriker
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Well, it will be another 5 turns before it will be within our Cultural Borders, so I don't see us changing our Worker micro for the next 2 actions (Mining the GH and then Chopping a Forest).
After that, we may or may not be better off Mining the Iron versus Chopping, although I assume that Chopping for another Galley will be the way that we'll play.
Churchill has a Galley, a Settler, and 2 Archers inside of London, plus whatever Units are on the Galley, if any.
Understood. With Munich having been founded, perhaps it will be safest just to retreat back 1 NW and stay there for several turns, seeing as how Frederick has assembled a "mini stack" consisting of an Axeman, a Spearman, and a Warrior, and we don't want to incur its wrath by being close to his Cultural Borders in a way that might lure his stack to come our way.
There are 111 population points in the world, 10 of which are ours.
EP Values
Stalin 17 / 0
Hatty 0 / 0
Frederick 156 / 0
Churchill 322 / 236
Joao 34 / 0
Alex 1 / 0
Alex has Mined his Gems Resource, but doesn't seem to have one available for trade, which is unfortunate.
Frederick has learned Masonry, but no other AI has learned a tech yet.
Alex is back down to -2 for Trading with his Worst Enemy.
Worst Enemy statuses have not changed.
We can't tell to whom Hatty traded her Stone (unless we believe that a Barb Pillaged it).
Churchill has a Fur connected and Hatty has a Horse connected (although these facts were true on Turn 57, as well).
Teleportation Testing:
Unfortunately, a Galley being 1 SW of London or 1 SW + 1 S of London will teleport to the west. So, we do need to whip our Galley 2 out of XO Cognac on Turn 67 if we want a shot at a Turn 73 attack on London.
Orleans grows to Size 4 on Turn 72, meaning a Turn 73 Galley 3, which could only unload Units on Turn 74. So, a Turn 73 attack would only mean going in with 4 Military Units. Of course, that's assuming that we wait to grow to Size 4 before getting Galley 3. If, instead, we 1-pop-whip a Galley on Turn 71, then Units could load onto it on Turn 72, allowing for 3 Galleys to exist which could hold Units that could attack on Turn 73. But, I'm not sure if we'll have enough production power from the other Cities to get 6 Military Units onboard by that time--perhaps if we aggressively Whip Chariots out of Lyons, and maybe an Axeman before Chariots if it can walk there in time. More testing will be needed to get the exact details, and I have just run out of time to do testing at the moment.
EDIT: Here are some pictures.
Spoiler :
Looks good, Folket.
With iron, Portugal will be much less vulnerable, so I'm on board with going after London.
Question whether whipping a barracks on T62 is optimal. That will start a serious unhappiness build up, that is not necessary. If we switch to a HA on T62 and wait until it is nearly complete before whipping the barracks into it and into the next one, unhappiness will be minimized. If we coordinate a chop, then we'll get HAs (or we could substitute an axe next) on successive turns.
Once we know where J's second city is founded, suggest we move scout east to check out Alex, his actions against Fred, and the map. BTW, Folket, have you instructed Alex to attack Berlin this turn?
Other suggestion I would make is to try to get a unit into England to scout before attacking, while we are completing the production of our attacking forces.
With iron, Portugal will be much less vulnerable, so I'm on board with going after London.
Question whether whipping a barracks on T62 is optimal. That will start a serious unhappiness build up, that is not necessary. If we switch to a HA on T62 and wait until it is nearly complete before whipping the barracks into it and into the next one, unhappiness will be minimized. If we coordinate a chop, then we'll get HAs (or we could substitute an axe next) on successive turns.
Once we know where J's second city is founded, suggest we move scout east to check out Alex, his actions against Fred, and the map. BTW, Folket, have you instructed Alex to attack Berlin this turn?
Other suggestion I would make is to try to get a unit into England to scout before attacking, while we are completing the production of our attacking forces.
Dhoomstriker
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I am very open to alternative micro if it can be shown to be better. Folket came up with at least 3 optimizations that all made sense to implement.
On Turn 62, we have 27 / 32 Food in Paris at Size 6 and will grow into Unhappiness in 1 turn due to earning 5 Food. If we didn't whip, we'd lose 2 Food per turn on Turn 63 onward from the Unhappy citizen at Size 7.
By whipping on Turn 63, traditional calculations show that we would lose 3 Food due to whipping just after growth instead of before growth. If we had, say, 5 squares/Scientists that we HAD to work to the point that doing so would be worth the price of 3 Food, we'd wait until Turn 63 to whip, so that after whipping, we'd have 5 citizens still working squares, but at the cost of that 3 extra Food. I don't see 5 strong enough squares that we'd want to do so.
One alternative worth considering, although it requires very attentive micro, is to switch to our Spy on Turn 62, to avoid turning the Barracks from a 2-pop-whipping action into a 1-pop-whipping action, as we already have 19 / 50 Food in the Barracks at the start of Turn 62. Then, on Turn 62, we turn on Avoid Growth for 1 turn only, earning exactly 32 / 32 Food at Size 6 without growing.
For that approach to work, we would have to remember to turn off Avoid Growth on Turn 63, otherwise what would be a minor efficiency gain would turn into a relatively major loss.
But, sure, then we can delay whipping for 1 more turn without losing any Food, so that's an approach worth implementing, if we're very attentive about turning off Avoid Growth on Turn 63, then also switching back to the Barracks on Turn 63 before clicking on the Whipping icon.
It can also be done without needing to learn Horseback Riding earlier than by learning it at a 0% Science Rate, as it would have to be our Spy that Paris switched to building on Turn 62, as we need to whip it on Turn 65, meaning that on a turn prior, we need to put some Hammer amount less than 10 Hammers into it, and Turn 63 will have Paris whipping (and therefore building) the Barracks, and Turn 64 will have us completing our Axeman with overflow Hammers from the Barracks.
It's some extra micro for a small efficiency gain, but it is a gain nonetheless!
EDIT: However, this idea sets off a chain reaction where we ALSO must turn ON Avoid Growth on Turn 64 when we are in the exact same situation (about to grow into Unhappiness while earning precisely enough Food to grow) and turn OFF Avoid Growth on Turn 65. That's a lot of extra micro to get absolutely precise. Are we willing to have that micro-intensive of a turnset?
That part I don't see happening without sacrificing elsewhere. Our Workers are already tasked with Chopping into our City 3 Granary, our City 4 Granary, and our Great Lighthouse.
It's certainly arguable that in the short term, if we didn't get Granaries, we could get another Military Unit out in place of a Granary, but overall, we'd lose a lot of production from lost Granary Food that I would find it a dubious practice, as we'd very quickly fall behind--with losing 12 Food here and 13 Food there, that's already roughly 1 lost Horse Archer (25 Food becoming roughly 50 Hammers).
Delaying The Great Lighthouse would also mean a heavy penalty in lost Commerce and a greater chance of not being the ones to even build that Wonder.
Since we're going to be attacking England instead of Greece, how about sending the Scout to England instead of to Greece?
Working on the micro. The whole mine thing outside of Orleans seems to be a waste of time. That mine contributed nothing. I think we should be better off to chop forests and mine the iron.
It seems like a turn 75 invasion of London is more likely. A 2 axeman, 2 HA attack on London was more or less 50/50.
It seems like a turn 75 invasion of London is more likely. A 2 axeman, 2 HA attack on London was more or less 50/50.
Appreciate the effort to check all these things out, Folket. Fine with your conclusions. Not to nag, but have you made our desires known to Alex?
"Since we're going to be attacking England instead of Greece, how about sending the Scout to England instead of to Greece? " Was thinking we could do both by putting our first HA on a galley to London. Value map knowledge.
"Since we're going to be attacking England instead of Greece, how about sending the Scout to England instead of to Greece? " Was thinking we could do both by putting our first HA on a galley to London. Value map knowledge.
PPP
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say yes.
If an AI asks for a tech, more often then not I will give the tech.
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no.
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" will prevent 10 turns of war,
but doesn't really anger other AIs, so it's free positive Diplo if we don't want to go to war with that AI soon. If we do nbot have excess resources I do not think this can happen.
Multiple turn items
Keep our Warrior 1 on the G Riv For that is 2 NE of Orleans (1 E of the Fish) for two turns then spend one turn SE.
Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
We meet a new AI
We want to declare war on an AI
Something unexpected happens
Turn 60, 1600 BC
Move forest NNE of XO Cognac to XO Cognac (not to forget when we chop it. )
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For
Science Rate 0%
Double-checking: Paris at Size 5 earns +9 Food, Horseback Riding won't get completed yet
Turn 61, 1560 BC
Paris switches G For to Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 2 Sci
On the F4 ACTIVE screen, cancel Open Borders with Stalin
Worker 1 Roads the G Copper Mine
Worker 2 completes the Chop at 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of the Wheat)
Worker 3 moves NE to chop forest
Scout moves to XO Cognac
Turn 62, 1520 BC
Paris 2-pop whips Barracks
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur and 1 Sci
Paris changes to spy
XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper
Orleans switches G Riv For -> GH Mine
Lyons nets its Fish and should automatically work it
Lyons starts granary.
Worker 2 moves into Lyons (NE G Riv > SE Lyons)
Turn 63, 1480 BC
Paris starts axeman.
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac completes Lighthouse -> Galley
Worker 1 moves to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 moves 1 E GH For (1 E of Lyons)
Turn 64, 1440 BC
30% research. 0.22 + 0.2 research lost and 0.8 gold lost. But researchiung more will make us loose more gold as we will have an acadamy later.
60% was loosing 0.7 + 0.4 research and 0.6 gold.
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary
2 pop whip in XO Cognac,
Paris gets to work copper.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci
Lyon works wine and fish.
Turn off growth in Lyon.
Paris starts spy.
Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish
Turn 65, 1400 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Espionage Rate 100%, start researching currency.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper and Horse
XO cognac builds teh great lighthouse.
Paris 2-pop whips spy.
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow
Science Rate 100% in order to learn Horseback Riding this turn
Load scout on Galley 1.
Galley 1 moves to London, (scouting on the way to 2SE of london.
Worker 3 moves to iron.
Turn 66, 1360 BC
Espionage Rate 0%
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Paris starts axeman.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper
Orleans work fish, cow and iron.
Lyon work fur and fish.
Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 mines iron.
Double-checking: XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse
spy moves NW
Turn 67, 1320 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Orleans works cow and fish
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary
turn on avoid growth in Lyons.
Lyon works fish.
Paris starts HA.
XO Cognac starts Galley.
Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
spy moves NW
turn 68
Load spy into Galley
Unload scout W of london.
XO Cognac starts HA.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, fur, cow and fish.
2 pop whip HA in Paris
Paris works deer, wheat and scientist.
Build HA in Lyons
Build Galley in Orleans
worker 2 moves to fur
turn 69
turn off avoid growth in Lyon.
Unload spy in London.
Paris works wheat, fur, deer and scientist.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, cow and fish.
2-pop whip galley in XO Cognac.
Orleans starts a HA.
turn 70
Paris starts a HA.
Paris works deer, fur and wheat.
XO Cognac builds the great lighthouse.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, cow and fish.
Orleans work cow, fish and iron.
Lyon works fish and fur.
worker 3 moves SW to chop fores SSE of Orleans.
worker 2 camps fur.
turn 71
Paris starts swordman.
Paris works fur, deer, wheat and copper.
XO Cognac 2-pop whip the HA.
XO Cognac works cow, fish and horse.
worker 1 moves to forest NNE of XO Cognac.
worker 3 chops.
turn 72
Orleans 2-pop whip galley.
Orleans work cow and fish.
Paris works wheat, deer copper and fur.
XO Cognac works horse, copper and cow.
XO Cognac starts a HA.
worker 1 chops.
turn 73
2-pop whip HA in Paris.
Start a HA in Cognac.
turn 74
worker 3?
Orleans start a swordman?
2-pop whip Cognac.
worker 2 road the fur.
turn 75.
Galley 2 will teleport from 2 S of London to SSEE if we close borders.
If we capture London We will have 3 happy citizen in XO Cognac and 4 of them in Paris.
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say yes.
If an AI asks for a tech, more often then not I will give the tech.
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no.
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" will prevent 10 turns of war,
but doesn't really anger other AIs, so it's free positive Diplo if we don't want to go to war with that AI soon. If we do nbot have excess resources I do not think this can happen.
Multiple turn items
Keep our Warrior 1 on the G Riv For that is 2 NE of Orleans (1 E of the Fish) for two turns then spend one turn SE.
Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
We meet a new AI
We want to declare war on an AI
Something unexpected happens
Turn 60, 1600 BC
Move forest NNE of XO Cognac to XO Cognac (not to forget when we chop it. )
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For
Science Rate 0%
Double-checking: Paris at Size 5 earns +9 Food, Horseback Riding won't get completed yet
Turn 61, 1560 BC
Paris switches G For to Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 2 Sci
On the F4 ACTIVE screen, cancel Open Borders with Stalin
Worker 1 Roads the G Copper Mine
Worker 2 completes the Chop at 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of the Wheat)
Worker 3 moves NE to chop forest
Scout moves to XO Cognac
Turn 62, 1520 BC
Paris 2-pop whips Barracks
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur and 1 Sci
Paris changes to spy
XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper
Orleans switches G Riv For -> GH Mine
Lyons nets its Fish and should automatically work it
Lyons starts granary.
Worker 2 moves into Lyons (NE G Riv > SE Lyons)
Turn 63, 1480 BC
Paris starts axeman.
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac completes Lighthouse -> Galley
Worker 1 moves to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 moves 1 E GH For (1 E of Lyons)
Turn 64, 1440 BC
30% research. 0.22 + 0.2 research lost and 0.8 gold lost. But researchiung more will make us loose more gold as we will have an acadamy later.
60% was loosing 0.7 + 0.4 research and 0.6 gold.
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary
2 pop whip in XO Cognac,
Paris gets to work copper.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci
Lyon works wine and fish.
Turn off growth in Lyon.
Paris starts spy.
Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish
Turn 65, 1400 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Espionage Rate 100%, start researching currency.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper and Horse
XO cognac builds teh great lighthouse.
Paris 2-pop whips spy.
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow
Science Rate 100% in order to learn Horseback Riding this turn
Load scout on Galley 1.
Galley 1 moves to London, (scouting on the way to 2SE of london.
Worker 3 moves to iron.
Turn 66, 1360 BC
Espionage Rate 0%
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Paris starts axeman.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper
Orleans work fish, cow and iron.
Lyon work fur and fish.
Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 mines iron.
Double-checking: XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse
spy moves NW
Turn 67, 1320 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Orleans works cow and fish
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary
turn on avoid growth in Lyons.
Lyon works fish.
Paris starts HA.
XO Cognac starts Galley.
Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
spy moves NW
turn 68
Load spy into Galley
Unload scout W of london.
XO Cognac starts HA.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, fur, cow and fish.
2 pop whip HA in Paris
Paris works deer, wheat and scientist.
Build HA in Lyons
Build Galley in Orleans
worker 2 moves to fur
turn 69
turn off avoid growth in Lyon.
Unload spy in London.
Paris works wheat, fur, deer and scientist.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, cow and fish.
2-pop whip galley in XO Cognac.
Orleans starts a HA.
turn 70
Paris starts a HA.
Paris works deer, fur and wheat.
XO Cognac builds the great lighthouse.
XO Cognac works horse, copper, cow and fish.
Orleans work cow, fish and iron.
Lyon works fish and fur.
worker 3 moves SW to chop fores SSE of Orleans.
worker 2 camps fur.
turn 71
Paris starts swordman.
Paris works fur, deer, wheat and copper.
XO Cognac 2-pop whip the HA.
XO Cognac works cow, fish and horse.
worker 1 moves to forest NNE of XO Cognac.
worker 3 chops.
turn 72
Orleans 2-pop whip galley.
Orleans work cow and fish.
Paris works wheat, deer copper and fur.
XO Cognac works horse, copper and cow.
XO Cognac starts a HA.
worker 1 chops.
turn 73
2-pop whip HA in Paris.
Start a HA in Cognac.
turn 74
worker 3?
Orleans start a swordman?
2-pop whip Cognac.
worker 2 road the fur.
turn 75.
Galley 2 will teleport from 2 S of London to SSEE if we close borders.
If we capture London We will have 3 happy citizen in XO Cognac and 4 of them in Paris.
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