Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Thank you!
SGOTM 24 Lurker thread
- Thread starter Zhary
- Start date
LowtherCastle
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Thanks, soundjata. Very stressful, that religious victory is. Right down to the wire. T156 I thought we had screwed it up because I suddenly realized that giving away the AP city (with the Pyramids) meant that we would flip out of Representation IT and I didn't know if we'd suffer the 5t of delay after the revolt before we could revolt to Environmentalism. Turns out you flip to Despotism but can revolt immediately next turn.Amazing finish time by Turbo Ants
Congrats
Quite a challenging scenario. It's well designed when it requires weaving together an entire tapestry of sometimes competing strategies.
I'm curious how many teams attacked Darius. We only had two DoWs the entire game, iirc, both against Stalin.
Fippy
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Amazing planning as always, cg TA 
We attacked Darius first, soon after i somewhat expected that religious will be faster than domination but was too late i think..we bulbed one part of Astro already and teched Engi for our wars.
I would be curious about how many turns we could have saved by using the AP instead, but i also like domination gameplay much more.
How to set priorities, hmm.
We attacked Darius first, soon after i somewhat expected that religious will be faster than domination but was too late i think..we bulbed one part of Astro already and teched Engi for our wars.
I would be curious about how many turns we could have saved by using the AP instead, but i also like domination gameplay much more.
How to set priorities, hmm.
LowtherCastle
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We couldn't decide whether Domination or Religious for a long, long time. We were leaning toward domination, I think, but the warring was so slow and started so late. Also, Stalin built the Pyramids for us, and that was crucial to our specialist/bulb tech strategy. Also, we didn't meet the other AIs for an eternity, so we weren't sure if religious was even viable. We finally decided to just get Astro and went with a lukewarm assumption we'd be able to spread religion to all AIs.
Our basic problem with warring was that we were putting most of our max overflows into failgold rather than units, so domination didn't really fit our tech strategy too well. It was clear from the get-go that our homeland was food-rich but not hammer-rich with no easy targets nearby, so in hindsight, I think it makes sense that warring take second place in this scenario.
Also, Darius was teching like crazy in our game, so we got him to Friendly asap and got many techs from him. Cheaper because his cities really weren't very close.
We settled cows second because we wanted to build Stonehenge. Otherwise Corn was probably much better. SH was favorable because there were so many nice city sites that need quick border pops. Libraries were too slow without chops.
Our basic problem with warring was that we were putting most of our max overflows into failgold rather than units, so domination didn't really fit our tech strategy too well. It was clear from the get-go that our homeland was food-rich but not hammer-rich with no easy targets nearby, so in hindsight, I think it makes sense that warring take second place in this scenario.
Also, Darius was teching like crazy in our game, so we got him to Friendly asap and got many techs from him. Cheaper because his cities really weren't very close.
We settled cows second because we wanted to build Stonehenge. Otherwise Corn was probably much better. SH was favorable because there were so many nice city sites that need quick border pops. Libraries were too slow without chops.
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Fippy
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@LTC yup Darius was teching well in our game too, agree that was the big timesink for domination here..attacking him in lack of close other targets. Us shipping an army all the way thru Gandhi & a fort for Toku, and watching him getting longbows + CI for another 25% defense after 2 cities was funny 
Many compliments to Zhary on his first sgotm map, was a really good one.
Being restricted on chopping gave us different gameplay, and forest preserves were just the right amount imo.
No stress but kept you busy whole game.
+ no easily farmable AIs makes for interesting planning, personally i prefer that over taking good cities from them early with inexpensive units (chariots, Axes with chops helping). Diplo becomes important.
Many compliments to Zhary on his first sgotm map, was a really good one.
Being restricted on chopping gave us different gameplay, and forest preserves were just the right amount imo.
No stress but kept you busy whole game.
+ no easily farmable AIs makes for interesting planning, personally i prefer that over taking good cities from them early with inexpensive units (chariots, Axes with chops helping). Diplo becomes important.
LowtherCastle
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I haven't counted, but couldn't you get domination without Toku? I was concerned that you guys wiping out Darius would give you a great power and tech base to both tech and build units. Then again, it too so long to build up our mainland, building a gazillion wbs. Plus, attacking Darius with horses meant building them all before attacking. Problematic. I agree that Zhary's made a great scenario. Having horses in trade form Darius was another interesting element. Di you tech HBR before DoW?
Issue with Toku was getting him to friendly to change civics. We didn't even consider using EP. In theory 4-5 spies could of done this with EP slider at 100% for 1-2 turns. Also hadn't realised Toku was reachable by sea from the north at this point.
We probably should of attacked Asoka instead. Asoka had LB and mace and this put us off. Asoka was very unlikely to whip units.
Other delay was waiting for our canal city to get ready for Toku. At this point Toku had archers/axes/chariots and swords. We landed to find Toku has got a stack of 14-15 units in first city. Thankfully he suicided on our stack. Few turns later we find he has HA. Then he got CI and LB. Still managed to take him down with 1 unit spare. Lot more effort than needed really. Big danger of leaving Toku alive was we could not control his civics. Without doing 2 civic change switches for him.
We didn't use HA at all really. Persians had quite a few spears and metal units when we finally declared. We rolled up with xbows and pults mainly. Few melee units too. So no HBR at point when we declared.
Yeah maybe we could of shaved some turns off here. Not too many. We were very efficient at many things here. I think the preserves and techs were main slow down. We had 1-2% land over at end.
We probably should of attacked Asoka instead. Asoka had LB and mace and this put us off. Asoka was very unlikely to whip units.
Other delay was waiting for our canal city to get ready for Toku. At this point Toku had archers/axes/chariots and swords. We landed to find Toku has got a stack of 14-15 units in first city. Thankfully he suicided on our stack. Few turns later we find he has HA. Then he got CI and LB. Still managed to take him down with 1 unit spare. Lot more effort than needed really. Big danger of leaving Toku alive was we could not control his civics. Without doing 2 civic change switches for him.
We didn't use HA at all really. Persians had quite a few spears and metal units when we finally declared. We rolled up with xbows and pults mainly. Few melee units too. So no HBR at point when we declared.
Yeah maybe we could of shaved some turns off here. Not too many. We were very efficient at many things here. I think the preserves and techs were main slow down. We had 1-2% land over at end.
LowtherCastle
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Wow, you guys did well for not using espionage on Toku. We never reached Toku. We gifted him a city with five 50% stationary spies and confucianism in it the turn before the AP victory vote. We didn't need to reach him to gift him the city. We had to use spies to revolt Stalin to Environmentalism too. Asoka and Gandhi should have been easy to bribe in caste systems before any DoW to prevent them from whipping units.
Fippy
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Toku was the right target for us imo, canal city + fort only took 2t i think. When we made that decision he lacked Monarchy still, unlucky that he beelined Feuda just then (and even built CI). First city with his main stack of 15 units or so were all chariots, Axes and other old stuff.
He was smaller than Asoka too, 7 vs. i think 10 cities.
We also did not get a forest growth in the last ~20 turns, would have needed just that one
He was smaller than Asoka too, 7 vs. i think 10 cities.
We also did not get a forest growth in the last ~20 turns, would have needed just that one
LowtherCastle
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You guys never got to 50 forests?!? If so, that's horribly bad luck. Did you mine all the Cow CIty and other non-forested hills? We had the apparent bad luck of a barb coastal city spawning east of the 2 corns, killing off a forest. Rather than capture it immediately, we settled our own inland corn city, killing off another forest, so we were down to 46 forests. We also settled near and chopped the pig jungle. Ended up with 50 forests about t140 and got an unused 51st just before winnng.
How did you guys expand borders for your mainland cities? Monuments? Libraries? Is there a screenshot of your developed mainland in your thread?
How did you guys expand borders for your mainland cities? Monuments? Libraries? Is there a screenshot of your developed mainland in your thread?
You can view all the saves now. We used mainly monuments for border pops.
Nostalgia big issue here is forest. They have 39-40 in starting area. I only count about 20 forest/jungle in the rest of their land. They will have to wait for forest spreads here to reach the 50 or so required. They have started on preserves but we waited 10-15 turns before we go any real spreads. They have not built any missionaries yet. Nor do they have galleons to chain them. They can gift Toku a city. Germans will need a mish spread by sea. AP vote is in 2 turns. So 2,10 and 18 turns for votes. They have about 15 turns of tech left here. Not sure they will make silver here. See how good their micro is. You can only have 3 mish at one time. So they need to push now to do this.
US - They have no real army at present. (Not that I could find.) AP looks easiest win route here. They will likely have to attack Gandhi to do this as he has the bulk of the Ap score. They can still switch into Ap religion. Gandhi could easily be bribed into free religion. Maybe spreading AP religion could work. They are teching at 1100 beakers a turn. They have built quite a few farms in main starting area. So forest growths will be limited here. See what happens. They need a big plan here on how to win.
Xteam - Seem to be building an army. They have enough forest in starting area. Probably need to be planning AP. Difficult without a GE. They have many turns left here. See what happens.
I think Nostalgia can snatch bronze laurel here. As eventually those forests will spread. They just need to start on mish sooner than later.
Nostalgia big issue here is forest. They have 39-40 in starting area. I only count about 20 forest/jungle in the rest of their land. They will have to wait for forest spreads here to reach the 50 or so required. They have started on preserves but we waited 10-15 turns before we go any real spreads. They have not built any missionaries yet. Nor do they have galleons to chain them. They can gift Toku a city. Germans will need a mish spread by sea. AP vote is in 2 turns. So 2,10 and 18 turns for votes. They have about 15 turns of tech left here. Not sure they will make silver here. See how good their micro is. You can only have 3 mish at one time. So they need to push now to do this.
US - They have no real army at present. (Not that I could find.) AP looks easiest win route here. They will likely have to attack Gandhi to do this as he has the bulk of the Ap score. They can still switch into Ap religion. Gandhi could easily be bribed into free religion. Maybe spreading AP religion could work. They are teching at 1100 beakers a turn. They have built quite a few farms in main starting area. So forest growths will be limited here. See what happens. They need a big plan here on how to win.
Xteam - Seem to be building an army. They have enough forest in starting area. Probably need to be planning AP. Difficult without a GE. They have many turns left here. See what happens.
I think Nostalgia can snatch bronze laurel here. As eventually those forests will spread. They just need to start on mish sooner than later.
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Fippy
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haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Xteam does look like they have some marathon playing sessions ahead of them to finish by the deadline, especially if they go for conquest or domination. War turns are time consuming. Plus they would need a lot of ships to move everything about.
LowtherCastle
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@Gumbolt: Good analysis, Gumbolt, thanks. That chopping explains a lot. We didn't dare tempt fate like that. The absolute odds for re-growth aren't really that great and we're talking about fastest finish, which shortens the window of opportunity.
We built 2 mines at Cow City because it was to build Stonehenge and workboats, but those mines were on tiles with little chance of spread.
You settled the same sites as us, including where we planned to settle 2corn, but barb city spawning nixed that for us, so we ended up with +1 city. That ended up being crucial for our GP spamming while building spies and confu misses. We also settled Stone CIty and a desert canal city, the latter of which gifted to Darius to get him to Friendly for tech trading fairly early on. He culture-bombed it toward the end and almost stole one of our forest preserves! Wouldn't that have been an unexpected twist...especially being dependent on the AP election cycle.
That's something I forgot to notice. We only DOWed twice, short wars with Stalin, and had a very small naval, 3+3+4 galleys/caravels/galleons iirc, so the turns were quite short right to the end, even with worker MM. We had about 26 workers at the end, iirc, mostly built just for preserves. We only had 7 total I think after our warring with Stalin and until near the end.
Thanks, Fippy. That's interesting. We didn't chop a single forest for hammers on our mainland, only settled over the necessary ones and chopped the pigs jungle. That explains how you got Oracle so early, I guess. We had surmised that from your culture graph. That was a bit scary. Did you take MC?We had mines on the yellow circles (one was sometimes used by doublecorn), i think that was mostly for Pyramids in Cap.
Destroyed the mines with a warrior when we started FPs.
We also chopped 2 forests (orange) for that and maybe Oracle? sadly they never came backSpoiler :
We built 2 mines at Cow City because it was to build Stonehenge and workboats, but those mines were on tiles with little chance of spread.
You settled the same sites as us, including where we planned to settle 2corn, but barb city spawning nixed that for us, so we ended up with +1 city. That ended up being crucial for our GP spamming while building spies and confu misses. We also settled Stone CIty and a desert canal city, the latter of which gifted to Darius to get him to Friendly for tech trading fairly early on. He culture-bombed it toward the end and almost stole one of our forest preserves! Wouldn't that have been an unexpected twist...especially being dependent on the AP election cycle.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
LC, yes, we took Metal Casting with the Oracle. Although we ended up changing our original plans for the GE we got from the forge engineer.
We also put some effort into fog busting to prevent barb city spawns, and also later barb galley spawns from the islands. Not sure how much difference it might have made, but we did not have any issues with either popping up in unwanted spots.
Edit: War turns...yes, we had a lot of long, intense sessions during the heavy fighting portions of the wars. And we had quite a lot of that. Darius, Stalin, Gandhi, and Toku were all exterminated. Stalin built a ton of units -- he had gone into war mode well before we were ready to declare on him, so he had a big army. We never were sure if we were his target, or if he intended to attack Darius or Bismarck. Probably it was us -- we were still very weak when he decided on war, weaker than Darius and Bismarck, but then started our own build up to go after Darius. He never declared on anyone, maybe because he could never catch up to our growing power and reach his threshold for being ready? Eventually we declared on him to get his land and wonders.
Toku had a ton of units as well, and unfortunately much stronger ones as Fippy mentioned. We barely had enough units to take his last cities, our army was down to almost nothing left. Very tense turns for the final battles.
We also put some effort into fog busting to prevent barb city spawns, and also later barb galley spawns from the islands. Not sure how much difference it might have made, but we did not have any issues with either popping up in unwanted spots.
Edit: War turns...yes, we had a lot of long, intense sessions during the heavy fighting portions of the wars. And we had quite a lot of that. Darius, Stalin, Gandhi, and Toku were all exterminated. Stalin built a ton of units -- he had gone into war mode well before we were ready to declare on him, so he had a big army. We never were sure if we were his target, or if he intended to attack Darius or Bismarck. Probably it was us -- we were still very weak when he decided on war, weaker than Darius and Bismarck, but then started our own build up to go after Darius. He never declared on anyone, maybe because he could never catch up to our growing power and reach his threshold for being ready? Eventually we declared on him to get his land and wonders.
Toku had a ton of units as well, and unfortunately much stronger ones as Fippy mentioned. We barely had enough units to take his last cities, our army was down to almost nothing left. Very tense turns for the final battles.
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LowtherCastle
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Our whales city got one seafood net pillaged and we had to whip a trireme. 
You guys settle to include the whales? We did.
You guys settle to include the whales? We did.(No) View the save. This will give you most of your answers. Overall it seems going Ap was the quickest way to play out this game. Less micro for wars. Less builds. Just science, workers, mish and spies. The only query really was about getting the AP built yourselves. That and how late you risked leaving it.
Main advantage of conquest was capturing wonders and land. Capturing Ap would of been interesting here. Albeit the AI were really slow at building this. We had a spare GE for ages this game. Main disadvantage was micro of so many units and time. Also some rather stuborn AI defending.
That being said Mylene loves the micro side and planning side of the game. Albeit we did no late night sessions on this game. Probably could of finished this in 3 months,
Main advantage of conquest was capturing wonders and land. Capturing Ap would of been interesting here. Albeit the AI were really slow at building this. We had a spare GE for ages this game. Main disadvantage was micro of so many units and time. Also some rather stuborn AI defending.
That being said Mylene loves the micro side and planning side of the game. Albeit we did no late night sessions on this game. Probably could of finished this in 3 months,
