[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[Folket]

Christianity in 6R is quite bad. Given how much is spreads automatically it is likely to convert Peter. We will need to bribe him to convert to Judaism. On the other hand we are in no hurry to finish the Moai so we have time to wait for stone for our chops.

Once Sitting Bull converts to Confucianism or someone else founds it we should spread Judaism to Poverty Point to make it cheaper to steal techs there.

For next tech it feels like metal casting or currency are good choices. An option would be to rush optics to meet all AIs. The wb outside of England/Germany could stay there and hope borders expand.

We should probably start generating a GP in 6R for a golden age.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Just now able to get to game. Will look at save and post a plan ASAP.

Does it make any difference whether we spread Judaism to Moscow or will just any Russian city do? Just saw your latest post. Do we still want to try to spread with a missionary?
Do we want to take traded resources away from the Sioux in order to gain points by trading them with any new civs?
At what point are we comfortable trading Theo?

 

[Cactus Pete]

We're looking good, except we can't get to trading partners.

Will sail one worker to the Island Town (IT) immediately, so that it can start the road to the stone, then sail back to pick up a second worker to help complete road and be able to start on quarry just as city expands.

Regarding research: That’s a difficult choice, and I will follow your lead if you have strong feelings. My first choice would be to tech Aesthetics and then immediately Literature, so we are more likely to build the GLib. I realize Peter already has Aesthetics and that it may become available in a trade, but if it does, that would mean at least two civs have it and may well be on their way to Lit, and one may have marble. My second choice would be Compass and Optics, but either Currency or MC would be reasonable too.

Going to put the Christian missionary in the galley with the Jewish one and let him explore the Russian mainland. I don’t believe a coastal vessel like the wkbt or a galley or trireme could sail to the German/British city even if it expands. The foreign civ could sail to Russia, of course, and we probably want the wkbt to be there to meet such a vessel.

Will move spy and Jewish missionary being built in Bib to convert Poverty Point and will eventually get the one being built in BB to 6R. Please explain this: “Once Sitting Bull converts to Confucianism or someone else founds it we should spread Judaism to Poverty Point to make it cheaper to steal techs there.” I’m not certain that I understand the need to wait for Confucianism. Do we need to make sure that PPoint doesn’t have another religion already there, or will have shortly, before we try to convert it and run a spy there?

Will build the AP in Bib after missionary, then perhaps GLib

T of A in BB after missionary

Mids in TC and will complete chop and create a mine on the plains hill as soon as stone is accessed.

Produce research in 6R after wkbt and run 1 scientists next turn and a second after expansion

Granary and then lighthouse in 6W

Moai and then AP in CC

Granary and then Lighthouse in IT

 

[Folket]

I can't believe I forgot about worker. Good that I stopped playing when I did. You should probably take both workers from TC. Pre chopping there is way less important. It looks like we can start road to stone in 6 turns.

My intuition says that commerce is the way to go. 14 commerce improves our economy by more than 20%. But I do not have any strong feelings. We need MC if we are going for optics. Do you want to research compass for harbours? As you are active player I'm fine if you decide on Literature.

I would prefer if we can keep Sitting Bull diplomatically isolated. And 13 turns is not that long wait. Spy have to wait 5 turns before it's mission anyway, so we should steal in 14 turns it looks like. If you believe it is better to bring Sitting Bull into the Jewish community that may be better. I find such a thing hard to estimate. My goal is to bring Peter up to Friendly as soon as possible. If they have the same religion Peter may be upset when we declare on Sitting Bull.

I suggest giving in to any demand from Peter except for Theology.

It may be better to build on AP before we have stone and then chop moai once we get stone.

We need to get a Christian missionary to CC as otherwise we can't finish the AP. There is an excess chariot that may explore Russia.

In BB I suggest you cottage the two riverside tundras and leave all the forests from chopping the Eiffel Tower.

It seems like when 6R grew it started working a tundra forest. I do not think we want to do that. Much better to work coasts.

You are good to play. any comment you do not agree with just think it over and do what you think is best.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Was about to give up on you. Appreciate the comments.

I can't believe I forgot about worker. Good that I stopped playing when I did. You should probably take both workers from TC. Pre chopping there is way less important. It looks like we can start road to stone in 6 turns. Concur.

My intuition says that commerce is the way to go. 14 commerce improves our economy by more than 20%. But I do not have any strong feelings. We need MC if we are going for optics. Do you want to research compass for harbours? As you are active player I'm fine if you decide on Literature. I'm taking you at your word that you don't have strong feelings and going my intuition and Lit.

I would prefer if we can keep Sitting Bull diplomatically isolated. And 13 turns is not that long wait. Spy have to wait 5 turns before it's mission anyway, so we should steal in 14 turns it looks like. So, you're suggesting I wait for 9 tuns before moving spy into PP? If you believe it is better to bring Sitting Bull into the Jewish community that may be better. If you don't, why are you building the missionary in Bib?I find such a thing hard to estimate. My goal is to bring Peter up to Friendly as soon as possible. If they have the same religion Peter may be upset when we declare on Sitting Bull. Well, that suggests you definitely want me to try and convert a Russian city, which I will certainly try to do.
I suggest giving in to any demand from Peter except for Theology. Will do, and appreciate that heads up.

It may be better to build on AP before we have stone and then chop moai once we get stone. That's subtle.

We need to get a Christian missionary to CC as otherwise we can't finish the AP. I have no idea why this would be true, but I will use the chariot to explore. I read nothing about a second religion being needed for the AP. Please explain. There is an excess chariot that may explore Russia.

In BB I suggest you cottage the two riverside tundras and leave all the forests from chopping the Eiffel Tower. OK

It seems like when 6R grew it started working a tundra forest. I do not think we want to do that. Much better to work coasts. Had caught that.

You are good to play. any comment you do not agree with just think it over and do what you think is best.

Thanks. Playing . . .

 

[Folket]

No, it will take 9 turn to move to Poverty point, there is no reason to wait. But missionary is faster so he can wait for spy.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played to turn 105 (250 BC)

Great Profit born in a far away land on turn 97 (450 BC), and Sioux galley approaches CC from the south, just west of Sioux territory.

T98: Christianity spreads to 6W.
T99: Galley sails into CC (and then out without incident)
T100: Research Aesthetics and discover that Peter already has Lit, so take worker off of building second tundra cottage in BB and move it to chop Bib forests into GLib.
T103: GS created in TC and sent to Bib for academy; pre-chop forest 1NW of IT as workers wait one turn for expansion
T104: Confucianism founded in Mound City.

For discussion:

May want to go ahead and get Currency, but need to meet other civs soon

Have built granary in 6W to almost 30 hammers and then switched to lighthouse – plan would be to build lighthouse until we have pop 4 in 6R and the food bin is almost half full before whipping granary into lighthouse. Have refrained from chopping (done some pre-chopping) in 6W in order to save forests for later required buildings.

Please explain your earlier comments on the potential issue with converting a Sioux city to Judaism and what you want to do with the Christian missionary that I have left in 6R out of ignorance.


Save is posted at Central. Do you want to post the next plan?

 

[Folket]

Well, my original plan was to build the AP in Christianity as it usually spreads less. An option would be to build the AP in Judaism and then convert to Christianity. Does not matter but we need the AP to be of a religion noone has converted to. Having Judaism in a Sioux city will make stealing techs cheaper.

Do you know when Peter got Literature?

I like the idea of national epic on 6R.

Need to think if Jewish or Christian AP is better. What do you think?

 

[Folket]

I can make a plan after you give your ideas about whether to have a Christian or a Jewish AP.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well, my original plan was to build the AP in Christianity as it usually spreads less. An option would be to build the AP in Judaism and then convert to Christianity. Does not matter but we need the AP to be of a religion noone has converted to. Having Judaism in a Sioux city will make stealing techs cheaper. Sorry, but I have no experience and next to no knowledge of the use of the AP to draw on here. I'm confused: If you want to take a Jewish missionary to convert a Russian city (which i made progress on), is that to get Russia Jewish so we can build the AP in Christianity and have no civ be Christian or is it to convert Russia to Judaism so we can build the AP in Judaism?

Do you know when Peter got Literature? I do not, but he had it when I teched Aesthetics, so you should be able to look at the log to learn at least that.

I like the idea of national epic on 6R.

Need to think if Jewish or Christian AP is better. What do you think?

No opinion. I don't even know what to consider.

Got RL now but will be back at computer in a few hours.

 

[Folket]

A must would be to make sure the AP religion is not adopted by anyone at the time of voting. But we need it spread to all players.

If we do a Jewish AP we will be fine if Christianity spreads to Peter before we are able to convert him, but we will need to convert to Christianity after we built the AP. We will have the AP religion more spread in our cities. We can take earlier use of building temples and monasteries with +2 hammer if we want to, but will loose happiness from missing state religion in several cities.

At the moment I think we should aim for a Christian AP but if Christianity spreads to Peter before we can convert him we may want to reconsider. Either way we will want to spread both Judaism and Christianity to all our cities.

 

[Cactus Pete]

A must would be to make sure the AP religion is not adopted by anyone at the time of voting. But we need it spread to all players.

If we do a Jewish AP we will be fine if Christianity spreads to Peter before we are able to convert him, but we will need to convert to Christianity after we built the AP. And if Christianity hasn't spread before we are ready to complete the AP? We will have the AP religion more spread in our cities. We can take earlier use of building temples and monasteries with +2 hammer [From what do we get +2 hammers?] if we want to, but will loose happiness from missing state religion in several cities.

At the moment I think we should aim for a Christian AP but if Christianity spreads to Peter before we can convert him we may want to reconsider. Either way we will want to spread both Judaism and Christianity to all our cities.

I know you're trying to explain, but I'm still confused. If we convert Peter to Judaism before he converts to Christianity, then he will likely adopt Judaism. So, why are we trying to spread Judaism to Russia right now?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Wish I could contribute to the AP decision, but I'm fine with your making it and going ahead and playing.

Some concerns before you begin:

I don't think I paused the game before saving and posting at Central.

I'm afraid that worker 1 2SE of Bib will chop that forest into mids next turn (before we have stone) if you don't tell him to skip a turn before hitting enter. He can then be sent next turn to chop the forest 1S of Bib.

One turn before the workers are finished quarrying the stone, suggest you move the galley 1E, then the workers can board the galley the following turn and be sailed two tiles per turn getting into TC one turn earlier than if you don't move the galley that 1 tile east. (The galley then can be sent to BB to pick up missionary for 6R.)

 

[Folket]

I know you're trying to explain, but I'm still confused. If we convert Peter to Judaism before he converts to Christianity, then he will likely adopt Judaism. So, why are we trying to spread Judaism to Russia right now?

We are trying to spread Judaism to make sure Peter does not adopt Christianity. As long as we build an AP in a religion Peter does not convert to we should be fine. Let us try to convert him to Judaism, but if he adopts Christianity I will just decide on the spot if it would be better to build a Jewish AP or not. If we can make sure Peter does not found Islam or Taoism I think our victory is secure.

AP makes buildings of that religion give +2 hammers.

 

[Folket]

Wish I could contribute to the AP decision, but I'm fine with your making it and going ahead and playing.

Some concerns before you begin:

I don't think I paused the game before saving and posting at Central.

I'm afraid that worker 1 2SE of Bib will chop that forest into mids next turn (before we have stone) if you don't tell him to skip a turn before hitting enter. He can then be sent next turn to chop the forest 1S of Bib.

One turn before the workers are finished quarrying the stone, suggest you move the galley 1E, then the workers can board the galley the following turn and be sailed two tiles per turn getting into TC one turn earlier than if you don't move the galley that 1 tile east. (The galley then can be sent to BB to pick up missionary for 6R.)

That makes sense. I'm at work now but I will try to get a plan together tonight and could play tomorrow.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We are trying to spread Judaism to make sure Peter does not adopt Christianity. As long as we build an AP in a religion Peter does not convert to we should be fine. Let us try to convert him to Judaism, but if he adopts Christianity I will just decide on the spot if it would be better to build a Jewish AP or not. If we can make sure Peter does not found Islam or Taoism I think our victory is secure. That i think I follow. Thanks.

AP makes buildings of that religion give +2 hammers.

Sorry, my ignorance.

 

[Cactus Pete]

That makes sense. I'm at work now but I will try to get a plan together tonight and could play tomorrow.

. Good. I will make comments on plan and have it up for you in the morning. One thing that has occurred to me is that we can probably speed the GLib by a turn or two by whipping Dun into it. That will cost us a citizen in Bib but may be worth it to eliminate the risk of Peter completing it after we will have invested so many hammers.

The best research path is unclear. I'm anxious to meet the other civs, and we could do that by teching Compass and then Optics, building a caravel (like producing it in CC and sailing ESE with a missionary to also gain circumnavigation very quickly) and perhaps a second produced elsewhere to sail SW. That would also allow our excess wkbt in IT to net the whales and give us another happy face (two with a market). There's Currency, with its immediate commerce value and access to building markets, and MC for forges. There's Calendar allowing M of M, which is going to take a while to build. Also, Peter may get the GA from Music if we don't go there immediately. What is most critical?

Do you know how many spy points we will need to steal C of L? If the Sioux's next tech is one we have, do we gift it to him? Do we want to think about switching spy points to a newly met civ? Caravels can transport spies too.

I will either have all day free on Wednesday or will be out of town and out of touch that day. Will let you know when I know.

 

[Folket]

That day went past faster then I expected. I will post my plan tomorrow morning.

 

[Cactus Pete]

That day went past faster then I expected. I will post my plan tomorrow morning.

Understood.

I will certainly comment on your plan tomorrow. When will you be able to play? I do have Wednesday free. Hoping that you can play sooner than later, so I can look at your save and post a plan, adjust to your comments, and be able to play sometime on Wednesday. Let me know if that seems feasible. Understand if not. Matters are getting more complicated, so we shouldn't rush.

 

[Folket]

Using Hammers = (Sabotage Production / City Revolt) * (650/6) I can see that Peter has 313 hammers in Moscow. Probably building the Pyramids. How much cheaper are wonders for AIs on Emperor? It seems like we should decide to gamble for Pyramid or just start hanging gardens.

My estimate for Stealing code of laws is about 450 espionage. One turn of espionage should be good. One turn 4 of our spy resting in Poverty point I will do that.

We have 443 hammers in forest that we can chop into the Pyramids using 16 worker turns. It looks like we can get it done in 10 turns. As far as I can tell the AI pay full cost for wonders. Peter has no stone and at least 1 forest. I think chances are pretty good that we can get the wonder built. If we send worker from Bibracte to help we can get it built in 8 turns.

PPP
Use 4 workers to chop the Pyramids. After Pyramids send one worker to chop Moai. Two workers to chop The Great Library. One worker build cottages in TC.

Spread Judaism to Peter. If Christianity auto spreads I will reconsider. Spread Christianity to CC.

Cities
5W (renamed from 6W)
Will work silver and chop granary. Whip Lighthouse at size 5.

Island
Whip Granary at size 2. Then whip Lighthouse when available.

6R
Whip Christian Missionary into National Epic and repeat.

CC
Change to Moai once stone is available.

Bibracte
Build the Great Library. Then build for fail gold.

BB
Build Missionaries and fail gold.

TC
Build Pyramids

Tech
Research order Currency, Civil Service(after tech steal), MC, Compass, Machinery, Optics