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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    OK, then on with Plan A for now. When deciding where/when to place cities, we need to be thinking about what gets a big stack onto galleys fastest, without too much sacrifice on the long game.

    "The question to me is whether we can get to a "ready-to-conquer" state faster with E SIP or E 1-E. Yes, this is the question."
    OK, I'm all caught up now. I guess A will drive the economy/tech, and E should be a high production city. Not sure... my guess is SIP for E gives more hammers.
     
  2. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    Wine E actually has more pure hammers from 2 plain hills instead of 0 for SIP. One of them is shared with cap but if we focus that city on commerce its doesn't matter.

    Im a little curious about conq victory because the lack of trading partners. However a tactic idea would be to have 2-3 civs that we pillage the countryside and lay siege on their cities. But don't raize the cities until we got tired of our trading partner so our fried does not get to big.
     
  3. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    I am happy to move forward either way.

    Neither option is great - SIP gets 2 food tiles, but is real slow, forces an early myst / monument, and we have to hope to find better land for city-3 than the rice-clam. 1-E is only a 1-food tile city, so mid-late game it'll grow slow and be poor for whipping units, but it starts fast and the Rice/Clam/Gem city isn't too lousy, and could even be an Oracle site, and an ok Maoi spot.
    • As for victories - even if we don't ultimately win with Conquest, we need to attack at some point.
      • We need a level 4 unit. {Heroic Epic}
      • ...but we need to found all cities before gunpowder. {Dun}.
      • ...so if we want to use an enemy capital site, we need to attack pretty early.
      • ...but we need friends to tech fast.
    • Hopefully the map makers are not so evil that we don't have any metal at all. Conquering with archers and cats across the sea sounds awful.
    • Getting BW / IW should be a priority, most likely BW self-tech, and IW through alpha. Heading right for IW is a really unorthodox move, hmmm, sounds like a terrible plan.
    I am wondering if TGL really isn't that good anyway if you can only have 6 cities that use it. Seems better of you're rexing coastal, so I would avoid TGL, and leave UN as backup plan - plus there are plenty of Merchant options later in the game that aren't too expensive, so the merchant city should be a low priority.
     
  4. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Yeah, ok. 1E is fine.

    With limited number of cities, we need to get them all big to reach the techs. So granaries are a priority more than usual; same for biology, and even Sushi.
    • We need a level 4 unit. {Heroic Epic} With a Dun and the UU that shouldn't be difficult.
    • ...but we need to found all cities before gunpowder. {Dun}. Amphibious war elephants. Or something.
    • ...so if we want to use an enemy capital site, we need to attack pretty early. Gunpowder isn't early. Axe rush, gallic warrior rush... are par for the sgotm course!
    • ...but we need friends to tech fast. It will be a while before we even get OB due to agg ai setting.
    Also, we need sailing for galleys, most likely, so we should have good options if we change our minds and want TGL.
     
  5. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    So is the vote 3 fore E 1E of wine against 2 for SIP E? Or did I misscount? We should get this game going soon.
     
  6. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    I think this is correct. I'm not changing my vote. But I am saying proceed, with settling 1E.

    Speed vs Quality. And (just like Quantity) Speed has a Quality of its own. ;)
    If we don't find something better, then three proposed cities would probably be better than having just the two.
     
    kcd_swede likes this.
  7. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Allow me to take the opposite side for a moment:
    • We only get 7 cities. We need to maximize land-holdings to get resources. Every city should be STRONG. 1E of wine is a 1-food city. It's not a good city after ~T-100.
    • We don't know what's East of the clams and we might orphan good food over there because we're committing ourselves to settling the Rice/Clam spot now, lest we ignore 2 more food spots.
    • Commerce will be hard to come by and losing the gems is not a good idea.

    I tend to think we should try our best to avoid settling 1-Food cities, even if this first one is the exception to the rule. This will ideally be our worst city spot in the whole game, but hopefully it pays off for itself by getting us out of the gate quick enough to take some capitals.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  8. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    I dunno - does this constitute a "move forward" split-decision, majority-vote-wins situation? This is only my second SGOTM, so I'm not sure how these things go.
     
  9. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    I would say yes.
    Every team is different. I don't think we should move forward if there are any Vetoes/Noes (e.g. my post #109). But without unanimity, we still need to move forward, so I think a vote of the active posters is a good way to do it.
    This is a tough one as the SIP votes are saying OK, settle 1E; and the let's-get-going-quickly votes aren't adamant and see the advantages of SIP. It will be interesting to read the discussions in the other threads when we are done. Some teams may already have all 7 cities planned along with tech and bulbing path.
    Spoiler Ike in Civ5 :
    "In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable."
     
  10. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    OK, let's wait** 12 hours from this post. To give anyone a chance to change their vote.
    Settle 2nd city now 1E of wine - Zhary, SD, kcd
    Settle 2nd city now in place on plains hill - DS, DH

    Spoiler ** If there is one thing I'm good at :
    It is Waiting.
     
  11. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    SD's latest post convinced me to go with my first impulse, and I'll change my vote to E SIP. Anybody else wanna change? PS-I don't feel strongly as I doubt this is a critical decision.
     
  12. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    I'm willing to switch to SIP-E as well. Also don't feel strongly about it.
     
  13. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    What about waiting to turn 5 with the settling decision? We should definitely know if there's anything more to the east and west by then.
     
  14. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    Decide later instead of now! That's my kind of approach! :thumbsup:

    Turn 5 because that is when we have to commit to a tech being researched?

    But a wise Swede once said
    :mischief:
     
  15. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    The main argument for it now is that a 2 city start never catch up with a 3 city start. With what we know now Sip E kills the clam spot ie only a 2 city start.
    It's hard to imagine that we won't find anything more before but who knows how evil the map maker is?

    Also comparing t0 and t5 settling for wine E revealed only a 11 beaker loss. With Sip E it's almost no difference since its really slow to build a worker on a plain and we can't build a monument until we have myst. So there is not really anything to put the hammers for SIP E into now.
     
  16. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Sounds like Zhary is a strong veto on [Immediately SIP E].

    I am fine to wait a couple of turns to finish scouting by the clams - the maintenance on SIP E does slow down myst, and make it tricky to get AH teched in time for the first worker out of Bibracte. Waiting a few turns is probably good.

    If people are green - I can scout until T-4, or post sooner if I see something particularly interesting, and post images tonight. Let me know.
     
  17. Zhary

    Zhary Skalman

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    I'm green on scouting
     
  18. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    Green for scouting to end of turn 3.
    Can we pick a tech on turn 5 or do we need to pick one on turn 4?
     
  19. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    5.

    If we're super lucky, we'll meet someone who already researched MYST.
     
  20. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    I'm with Deckhand... scout to t3 and re-evaluate.
     

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