[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

@Zhary - did you play test E SIP with myst start? I was trying that out to see if I wasn't missing something. A is a little stronger without the monument than E is. I couldn't quite get it so that AH was available in time for the first workers when tech Myst first.
  • I don't see a good reason to move E, because of tile-sharing, and orphaning the gems, et cetera. The start in place is slow, but moving it will be worse later.
  • I've come around on the idea of settling both on turn 1. I had originally thought of settling the 2nd city on turn 5 to maximize the early tech.
  • I see the concern with making A the GP city. I think if we do E SIP, then E can be a science city. Sort of agree on the Moai getting used in a future location - but really, that's quite a ways off. It doesn't take much of a city to be able to chop / whip Oracle. The clam spot has some rivers in view, maybe there's something decent over there.
 
@SittinDown I tested E SIP with myst start to, it was sligthly better than A SIP for a 2 city approch. But in my view a 3 city approach is superior and then myst before AH is worthless because of the time it takes to get the cows herded.

Settling E as City 2 by turn 1 and clams city 3 at turn 10( if we don't find anything better) is also ok and would give us some time to scout.

This start is realy complex nightmare for optimization when it comes to settle multiple cities and find best worker moves.:hammer2:

I bet the different teampaths will split up from turn 1.
 
Good to know. I couldn't help notice the graphs posted on the save-submission page last night, and spotted a few details that show there's already a divergence. Seems a little unsportsmanlike to analyze those much though.
 
SittinDown said:
Good to know. I couldn't help notice the graphs posted on the save-submission page last night, and spotted a few details that show there's already a divergence. Seems a little unsportsmanlike to analyze those much though.
Click to expand...
It's part of the fun.
I read almost all of the posts one SG that I moderated. Lots of speculation about what others were doing, but no decisions made based on other team activity.
 
OK - I tested some more. Tried A cap, and E cap. I liked A cap better - but I could be wrong. It just seemed like it got a lot more commerce going early from A than I could with E because of the crab, and then furs were up much sooner.

I vote for SIP A - produce work boat, then SIP E. (Correction: settle E.)

I am finished debating turn 0 - happy to go forward with whatever we decide though! I think @Zhary raised a lot of good points and I appreciate the play testing.
 
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SittinDown said:
I vote for SIP A - produce work boat, then SIP E.
Click to expand...
Green from me.
Is E being settled the turn the workboat completes? What turn is that and what tech path?
If both settled turn 0, Is E building worker?
 
SittinDown said:
Good to know. I couldn't help notice the graphs posted on the save-submission page last night, and spotted a few details that show there's already a divergence. Seems a little unsportsmanlike to analyze those much though.
Click to expand...

I see it more like a marathon, the leader always carries the second runner. It's fun to look and think what other are doing. even if we could guess what path they took nothing says that its the right path.


Anyway onward with the discussion. Settling E on turn 0 or turn 5(cap border pop for trade routes) doesn't make much difference. Turn 0 gives us faster worker but worse commerce and the workers almost always struggle to find things to do around turn 50.

For wheter E should SIP or move to 1E of wine I've made some calculations for the situation at turn 80:

Plus with sip(assuming myst first and monument at turn 19)
Ph start +1h/turn=80h

Plus with 1E wine:
traderoutes turn 5-29: +2c
working sheep from turn +1f for 29/turns
working past sheep turn 20-34: +2f/turn +1c/turn
no need for monument:+30h

Total at turn 80:
food
-61 for sip
hammer
+50 for sip
commerce
-64 for sip

Assuming we work the 2 gems mine insted of 2 riversside plainfarms from turn 80 we get:
-2f +2h +10c
Just counting commerce sip is better from turn 86. On the other hand counting with the 5f/2h/1c rule sip takes 67 turns to pay of ie turn 147.

Then we should also include the fact that sip E generates an oracle approx. 5 turns later. If a missed oracle means no CS but fail gold we should add 1000 beakers to the equation and we get an upperhand on SIP after 200-300 turns!
 
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Deckhand said:
Green from me.
Is E being settled the turn the workboat completes? What turn is that and what tech path?
If both settled turn 0, Is E building worker?
Click to expand...

I should clarify - SIP A on turn T-0, start work boat. Defer tech (until T-5). Next turn. Settle E (somewhere) on T-1, after scouting. If clam site gets better by scouting F west, then we can reassess city placement of E and F. Otherwise, we go with the 1E wine, and settle city 3 ~ turn 10, barring any major scouting findings before T-10. My guess is we'll either explore our entire land island, or find we're on a bigger land mass by then. If we SIP E, we'll tech myst first, otherwise, tech AH first.

@Zhary - I'm completely open to settling E one east of the Wine - I had pretty good success with that too in my testing. I don't have a strong intuition about what'll be going on by turns 50-80. You make good points, and conventional wisdom is usually to go for the faster start than optimize the finish. as for workers, I'm not too super worried about workers running out of stuff to do by T-50, since hopefully by then we will have founded some other cities, and we can move idle workers.
 
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@SittinDown
I thought you like E at wine if I remember correctly it was your idea from the beginning. The numbers are for the other team members to get a clearer picture.

I'm always build oracle in A, it just that sip E in the long run slows down tech rate.


Some notes on the micro of A: we could either build the wb on the cows or some faster at the plain forest. If we choose cow we should change the cows for crab one turn to get the city at size 2 the same turn the wb is finished and we don't need to waste hammers on something if the worker should be built after the growth. At the same time forest wb gives us a size 1 worker or some waste hammers. We don't really get a warrior out before size 2.
 
@Zhary - it's not clear to me what you want to see us do with the remainder of Turn 0.

Are there any red votes for "make A the capital, start a work boat", and then next turn? If so, what would make your vote a 'GO'?
 
SittinDown said:
@kcd_swede @DynamicSpirit - any thoughts?
Click to expand...
"SIP A on turn T-0, start work boat. Defer tech (until T-5). Next turn. Settle E (somewhere) on T-1, after scouting. If clam site gets better by scouting F west, then we can reassess city placement of E and F. Otherwise, we go with the 1E wine, and settle city 3 ~ turn 10, barring any major scouting findings before T-10. My guess is we'll either explore our entire land island, or find we're on a bigger land mass by then. If we SIP E, we'll tech myst first, otherwise, tech AH first."
I'm good with all that in principle. Since E isn't established fully, from me you are a GO up to the decision point on T1 before settling E.
 
SittinDown said:
@Zhary - it's not clear to me what you want to see us do with the remainder of Turn 0.

Are there any red votes for "make A the capital, start a work boat", and then next turn? If so, what would make your vote a 'GO'?
Click to expand...

I still had the idea of settling E on turn 0. Comparing at turn 25 settling on 0 instead of 5 generate us 11 extra gold and a warrior. However it seems like everyone vote for exploring and it's not much so go on.

When it comes to A optimization and building wb on cow or forest, cow is definitely better on every front at turn 25.
 
Pre-Play-Plan:

T-0
  • A - settle in place. Work the cows. Start on a [WorkBoat]
  • E - wait.
  • Defer tech choice.
  • Next turn.
T-1
  • Scout with all settlers except E.
  • Pause.

I can play in about ~8-12 hours, or if we're all green, someone else can play now.
 
Green.

I'm really glad Zhary and SittinDown are on the team and doing extensive testing! :D
I don't have time for that now and it's not really my thing. I happily defer to those with the time and aptitude. :wavey:
 
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