[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

[kcd_swede]

I think its a good plan. Make sure to pause if anything gamechanging or otherwise unusual shows up.

 

[Deckhand]

Green.

Except it is unclear to me which tile fur-wheat is settling on.
Blue circle SW of wheat: fresh water, immediate fur
S of wheat: gains two forests
E of wheat: only if this gets seafood that I hope for in the fog but very much doubt

thanks for much for all the playtesting

 

[SittinDown]

@Deckhand - I had been settling W of Wheat, because it could improve all 3 tiles without a border pop. SW isn't bad either - but needs a monument for 2nd fur. I'll defer the exact settling spot until T-7 and scouting turns up anything, so we can all agree on the specific spot.

 

[SittinDown]

Write up:

• T-3
  • Founded E in place. I did some testing between T-3, and T-5, and T-3 was better.
• T-4
  • Met SITTING BULL to the EAST ...no tech help there.
  • Found a Clam within range of the Wheat and Furs.
    
  • Found more silver and furs to the far-north.
• T-5
  • East exploration reveals a 3-food site with 2 clams and a crab.
  • Start Myst
• T-6,7
  • More explore. Nothing big going on. No religion founded yet.
  • Demographics:
    • Nothing crazy someone has a 2-pop city already. Most just have 1-pop, so nobody started with an extra settler or anything weird.
    • In production, Celtia is #1.
    • In food, Celtia is #1.
    • In approval rating, Celtia is #1.

Going to wait on options for settling the 3rd city. I like the Wheat/Clam/Fur site, with the double-water access and 3 plains hills. Seems like a strong Prophet candidate.

 

[Deckhand]

Keep an eye on that Sitting Bull fellow. If he is coughing but not wearing a mask, then he isn't a good neighbor.
How did we meet him? I have had some games where he was a willing tech trader initially.

Spoiler Sitting Bull :

Philosophical - +100% birth rate
Double production speed of University
Protective - Free Drill I and City Garrison I promotions for Archery and Gunpowder units
Double production speed of Walls and Castle

Dog Soldier - Axeman with 4 instead of 5. +100% vs. Melee units instead of 50%. Doesn't need Copper or Iron to build
Totem Pole - Monument that gives +3 XP to Archery units built in the city

Favorite Civic - Environmentalism

We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced appears after he sees you receive 8 techs from AIs on Emperor Difficulty (Varies based on difficulty, Tech steals don't count)
Will trade techs that don't unlock units or buildings to human when 80% of the other AIs also know the tech


Builds Wonders 0/10
Builds Units 8/10
Espionage Spending 7/10
Resists Capitulating 10/10

Asks for Help 0/10
Demands Tribute 10/10
Demands You Convert To His Religion 2/10
Demands Civic Change 1/10

Declares Wars of Conquest on Neighbors whom He is Annoyed With 4.3/10

Flavor Military (Medium) + Growth (Low)
Faction (Peace Weight) Good (+8)
Base Attitude towards Human Player (+0)
Possible Diplo Bonuses
Different Religion Penalty - Up to -1 Relations (or -2 if Sitting Bull owns the Holy City)
Shared Religion Bonus - Up to +3 Relations (or +4 if Sitting Bull owns the Holy City)
Shared War Bonus - Up to +4 Relations (or +5 while human and Sitting Bull share a war)
Shared Civic Bonus - Up to +3 Relations
Tech trades required to receive +1 "shared your technological discoveries with us" - 20

Attitude Thresholds
Will open borders: Cautious
Will trade techs: Cautious
Will trade extra happy resources: Annoyed
Will trade extra health resources: Annoyed
Will trade extra strategic resources: Cautious
Will trade map: Annoyed
Can plot war at pleased: Nope
Can be bribed to war against AI: Friendly (If he is annoyed or lower with target AI)
Will sign trade embargoes: Pleased (If he is annoyed or below with target civ)
Will adopt religion: Pleased
Will adopt civic: Pleased
Will possibly peace vassal to human player: Friendly
Will form defense pact: Friendly
Will form permanent alliance: Friendly

Favorite Tile Improvement: Nothing specific

War Behavior: Sitting Bull builds a lot of units and always has highly promoted archery units due to his traits and unique building. His units have high courage and will regularly attack when they have the opportunity. The Dog Soldier makes it more likely he can declare on you early if you have border tensions and reject his numerous demands for resources/gold/techs. Once he takes one of your cities it is rather hard to take it back, so try not to get into that position.

The "Pain in the Neck" Factor: Medium. He makes a lot of demands for tribute until you get him to pleased. If you reject his demands and make him annoyed you will eventually have a problem.

Analysis: Sitting Bull is the most peaceful civ in the game if he is cautious with you, but once he becomes annoyed you can consider him a moderate threat.

He likes to spam City Garrison III archers to sit in his cities and lots of dog soldiers to roam around. The only civ capable of rushing him early is Egypt with War Chariots. If those aren't available, then it is best to wait until catapults if you want to conquer him. Getting him as a vassal requires administering a beating that would shock even the Romans so don't say you weren't warned!

Don't underestimate the dog soldier as they can counter even macemen if they are sitting in a forest or city. It requires no resource to build but is highly vulnerable to chariots if it is by itself.

You will often find one of your cities being poisoned over and over and over again. Well, that is probably Sitting Bull . Besides spamming units he likes to spend a lot of resources on espionage and poisoning your cities is one of his favorite activities. The best counter is to put one of your own spies in the city to make the mission -20% less likely to succeed and to close your borders with him if you can maintain "pleased" without the diplo bonus.

He is a pain to get techs out of and quickly reaches ""We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced", so don't plan on him being a teching partner.

Strategy: No matter what your strategy for victory is, Sitting Bull is probably just in the way. He is a bad vassal, won't trade techs, pesters you with spies, and generally dies hard. If you don't take him out with siege before he gets longbows and castles, he will stick around until the gunpowder era easily. His high peaceweight and stubbornness makes him a good target to try and direct the more dangerous warmongers to attack, so "punching bag" might be the best use to put him towards.

We have bad enough land, we don't want him around to poison our wells in the mid game.

Current open question is where and when to settle city 3.
I leave when to settle up to SittinDown (Hey are you related to SittinBull!!!? ) to determine.
I like E of Wheat with two food, three PHs, etc (so happy I was wrong to be skeptical about Clams). But takes one of the foods from the 3 food city. Either place would be a decent Moai.
Alternatively, settling SW of wheat gets a 3-food lake tile and allows the 3 food spot (lousy city, we would need to whip everything until had Statues).

In the NW, S of silvers with two food and 2 silver seems best at the moment.
Assuming we eventually settle there, that would be four cities on starting continent (assuming don't take both wheat and 3 food spots). Leaving 3 for better land and AI capitals; that seems about right.

 

[SittinDown]

I leave when to settle up to SittinDown (Hey are you related to SittinBull!!!? ) to determine

....I don't think so. .....I would favor settle ASAP for 3, and more testing for 4.

SB is certainly a harder one to rush.

....I like the same sites you do DH. I'm not sure about how to optimize all the food. I worry if we over-emphasize grabbing food resources, we won't get enough land, and might find iron in some annoying corner we can't get to in forever.

 

[SittinDown]

Definitely:

• Ottoman - Mehmed - (Org, Exp)

Some of the following:

• Arabia - Saladin (Spi, Pro)
  
• Byzantine - Justin (Spi, Imp)
  
• Mongolia Genghis - (Agg, Imp)
• Mongolia - Kublai - (Agg, Cre)
  
• Japan - Toko - (Agg, Pro)
  
• Egypt - Rams - (Ind, Spi)
  
• Egypt - Hatty - (Cre, Spi)
• French - Louie - (Cre, Ind)
• Ottoman - Suleiman - (Phi, Imp)
  
• Sumeria - Giggles - (Cre, Pro)

Definitely not

• Anyone else. Not De Gaulle, not Mansa, not Ghandi, etc...

Sitting Bull is not on my list. I'll take another look and see if I can figure out what I did wrong.

 

[kcd_swede]

I like the wheat/clam/fur site right away. Would wait on any other sites.

 

[SittinDown]

Let's get a vote started to settle

T-8 (or as soon as possible)

• Settle 1E of Wheat.

If that's green, I'll play until T-10.

 

[Deckhand]

Green.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Good luck guys. Happened to poke my head in here and noticed this had started. I'll be rooting for you.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Good luck guys. Happened to poke my head in here and noticed this had started. I'll be rooting for you.

Seconded!

 

[Deckhand]

Hi Guys! nice to hear from you

Not too late to join!

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Sadly, I have no device on which to play Windows games. I haven't looked at any of the other threads, so if you are willing to have me as a kibitzer, I'm game. Does an admin need to approve before I can talk about the game?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I haven't looked at any of the other threads

That's fine, welcome! @AlanH will add you officially to the roster but you can join in immediately.

 

[SittinDown]

Hey - sorry, I didn't get a chance to play tonight - I will play the turns tomorrow night.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I like settling 1E of Wheat. I do think that means the mountain crab just east of there is lost, the two seafood tundra city would be unattractive.

 

[SittinDown]

I think you're right - but the Wheat / Clam / Fur + PH mine potential seemed good.

I tend to think we should not found city 3 until we have myst, or we're going to really slow down our tech pace.

 

[AlanH]

I’ve added ChrisShaffer as a non playing adviser

 

[SittinDown]

I just play tested a test game, and found that Sitting Bull starts with 14,000 soldiers normally. So in our game, he was given *something* that got him to 18,000.

Which means, we know a lot less than I hoped about who is in the game. Though we still can feel pretty safe in knowing who is EXP (1 AI) and who is CHA (nobody).

• Cahokia has 21 culture on turn 7, which means he was gifted a TOTEM pole at turn 0. That accounts for 1,000 soldiers.

He has 3,000 unaccounted for soldiers, which sounds a lot like a free extra Archer.