[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Why did you edit the seafood out of the pictures? 
Did we get the wrong save? 
Now we need to discuss how soon to send a workboat exploring! Maybe we need two: one north and one south.
Did we get the wrong save? Now we need to discuss how soon to send a workboat exploring! Maybe we need two: one north and one south.
Wow... lush like the Garden of Eden.
Nothing that alters the initial plan. At least good we can reach/scout other landmasses with wb('s). No barb galleys to worry us.
Looks good, or rather grey-brownish as expected. In my long run tests I get a exploring wb out from bib at turn 29 after crab wb and a worker.
Im in for settling E by the wine this turn but if someone wants to explore the NW coast for seafood first it's OK for me.
Im in for settling E by the wine this turn but if someone wants to explore the NW coast for seafood first it's OK for me.
SittinDown
King
It's looking like the 3 city approach is wise - and that we'll be using the Sheep / Fur site above in some way, but not for a while.
I'm definitely on board for WB's.
PPP -
Gets us to our first tech choice. With E on 1-E of wine, AH is a pretty obvious choice.
At least with the cows, it'll be easy to build a few work boats to explore.
I'm definitely on board for WB's.
PPP -
- Tun 1 - Settle E 1-E of wine, and build a worker.
- Turns 2 - 5 - Explore.
Gets us to our first tech choice. With E on 1-E of wine, AH is a pretty obvious choice.
At least with the cows, it'll be easy to build a few work boats to explore.
SittinDown
King
Hm - I dunno. It makes sense even if it's not a phrase.
I have a friend who fish and he talks about catching Skunk Fish. which means 'nothing'.
I have a friend who fish and he talks about catching Skunk Fish. which means 'nothing'.
Green.
I want to say green, because I trust your testing.
And these questions were probably all answered previously, but:
1E of wine loses the gems. We can get one but not both with a clam city. Also three tiles overlap with capital. With only seven cities doesn't seem wise. It might get us going faster, but looks like poor use of the land to me.
So, Red until I understand.
And these questions were probably all answered previously, but:
1E of wine loses the gems. We can get one but not both with a clam city. Also three tiles overlap with capital. With only seven cities doesn't seem wise. It might get us going faster, but looks like poor use of the land to me.
So, Red until I understand.
Spoiler :
SittinDown
King
@Deckhand - Sounds good. I was a little on the fence about 1E vs SIP anyway.
Here was the general analysis:
Here was the general analysis:
- 1E
- Can work sheep quickly.
- Makes the clam site pretty good.
- Overlapped tiles are a PH, and 2 river tundras.
- Connects +2 trade route on T-5.
- Loses the rice and the gems.
- Can work sheep quickly.
- SIP
- Slower start. Requires myst + monument to be useful at all.
- Makes the clam site pretty useless.
- Becomes a stronger city ~ T-100+.
- Definitely a stronger end-game city.
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I generally agree with the general analysis.
Is plan to settle NW of clam for rice and 1 gem sometime as third city?
This is going to be a fairly long game going deep into tech tree and we are limited to seven total cities. I am uncomfortable trading a long term really good city for two mediocre cities.
My gut says No. But you are all better players than me. So, OK - but I'd like to hear from DS first.
SittinDown
King
Please don't mistake how active I am for me being a good player
I think you raise a really valid point. And who knows, maybe next turn we'll find another food tile over by the far-side of the clam? I tend to generally think in this game that settling 2-food sites, and taking rival capital sites will be our best pathway. The question to me is whether we can get to a "ready-to-conquer" state faster with E SIP or E 1-E.
And to be honest, I have no idea which is better - cause I'm not remotely good enough to see 50+ turns into the future.
SittinDown
King
I'm not sure how critical that really is though.
Louis is the only Industrious AI in the game - and in the play testing I saw, he was more interested in Henge / GW. He seemed slow to get to Priesthood. I didn't miss Oracle once.
I need to look at the "Know Thy Enemy" more, but this isn't a builder-heavy set of AI's.
- With this much sea, we should thinking about Great Lighthouse, and Sailing sooner than later. That probably is worth more than the other stuff, since we're likely to get overseas routes early.
- With this much bad land, Mids is interesting - REP scientists are way better than brown cottages, but without Stone or Math, it's really expensive.
- What are our conquest options?
- We can't wait until Gunpowder - because we have to build a DUN everywhere, so we have to have founded every city before gunpowder. No drafting. No Curs.
- We aren't likely to see Horses or Elephants. No HB, no elephants, no Knights, no Curs.
- Sword / Mace - A - Pults or X-bows? Seems like our main option. But we don't know where the metal is yet.
- I'm wondering if getting earlier metals and Sailing is better for better land. The good thing is I think the AI's will be pretty slow.
For me it is wine E=safer oracle, because more commerce sooner for faster teching?
faster exploring wb (from earlier cow) , because earlier worker from city two to improve the cow while capital is building workboat?
and hopefully faster resource rich Ai cap site to settle. I'm concerned about our production! And we will most likely need to transport the army by galley.
But like I said before waiting until turn 5 to settle E would cost us to much. This would be waiting to settle until Mysticism learned? I agree, we don't want to wait.
In my personal games, I don't get the Oracle unless low difficulty. I'm always amazed that my SGOTM teams always manage it. With this lousy land, I'm not confident. Bibracte isn't great place for Moai.
But Better is the enemy of Good Enough (paraphrase). So safer oracle is a powerful argument.
--
The question to me is whether we can get to a "ready-to-conquer" state faster with E SIP or E 1-E. Yes, this is the question.
Here's another question: How will we generate the great people we need for fast teching? Two food per city seems very important.
DS - you there?
Edit - cross post
Edit2 - SD brings up good point. GLH might be best. I gotta go now, maybe back later tonight.
faster exploring wb (from earlier cow) , because earlier worker from city two to improve the cow while capital is building workboat?
and hopefully faster resource rich Ai cap site to settle. I'm concerned about our production! And we will most likely need to transport the army by galley.
But like I said before waiting until turn 5 to settle E would cost us to much. This would be waiting to settle until Mysticism learned? I agree, we don't want to wait.
In my personal games, I don't get the Oracle unless low difficulty. I'm always amazed that my SGOTM teams always manage it. With this lousy land, I'm not confident. Bibracte isn't great place for Moai.
But Better is the enemy of Good Enough (paraphrase). So safer oracle is a powerful argument.
--
The question to me is whether we can get to a "ready-to-conquer" state faster with E SIP or E 1-E. Yes, this is the question.
Here's another question: How will we generate the great people we need for fast teching? Two food per city seems very important.
DS - you there?
Edit - cross post
Edit2 - SD brings up good point. GLH might be best. I gotta go now, maybe back later tonight.
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My vote is still for E SIP and wait to explore more before founding a 3rd city - for pretty much exactly the reasons Deckhand mentioned.
However if I'm the only person still voting that way, then you can ignore me and carry on - we're not going to get unanimity for every decision
However if I'm the only person still voting that way, then you can ignore me and carry on - we're not going to get unanimity for every decision
SittinDown
King
Side note:
Just noticed the demographics - GNP.
Wonder if they have an already improved commerce tile? Will have to play around on a test game, though I don't have time tonight.
Just noticed the demographics - GNP.
- T-0 22/20/18
- T-1 22/22/22
Wonder if they have an already improved commerce tile? Will have to play around on a test game, though I don't have time tonight.
My vote is still for E SIP and wait to explore more before founding a 3rd city - for pretty much exactly the reasons Deckhand mentioned.
However if I'm the only person still voting that way, then you can ignore me and carry on - we're not going to get unanimity for every decision
I'm good either way.
I think these tactical decisions take up a lot more time and energy than they are worth. Strategy for victory is more important and will determine the victors. Strategy can only be tentative at this stage... but are we decided that Conq>Culture? If we instead believe culture is the way, then we know that 3 very good cities is a lot more critical than several "good enough" cities.
An agreed strategy tends to make these tactical decisions simple, too. The decision is difficult because without a strategy we are trying to optimize everything at once, which is impossible.
@Deckhand
Your assumption regarding my post is correct. The argument about earlier wb is however weak it's just 1 turn.
@kcd_swede
Good point, our argument is about long term strategy even if the decision is now. So here is my view:
When it comes to classic culture, the name of the game is every religion is welcome. The more cathedrals the better. Unfortunately here we cannot conquer them all, but have to rely on spread. With aggressive AI it feels unsafe to have it as a strategy.
That leaves diplo or conquer, since we've gonna get labs and broadcast towers a is more or less worthless so UN or war it is. With war if we want their capsize as our own we have to make an early purge against them all to not have one of the go near dom. This would leave us with no trading partners and slow tech rate.
UN seems to me to be the best but it has the drawback of rely of which Ai's are there. And very important:
TGL blocks the UN!
Your assumption regarding my post is correct. The argument about earlier wb is however weak it's just 1 turn.
@kcd_swede
Good point, our argument is about long term strategy even if the decision is now. So here is my view:
When it comes to classic culture, the name of the game is every religion is welcome. The more cathedrals the better. Unfortunately here we cannot conquer them all, but have to rely on spread. With aggressive AI it feels unsafe to have it as a strategy.
That leaves diplo or conquer, since we've gonna get labs and broadcast towers a is more or less worthless so UN or war it is. With war if we want their capsize as our own we have to make an early purge against them all to not have one of the go near dom. This would leave us with no trading partners and slow tech rate.
UN seems to me to be the best but it has the drawback of rely of which Ai's are there. And very important:
TGL blocks the UN!
SittinDown
King
- Good point.
I think we all agree it's Conquest / Culture / UN.
[I'm not certain, but I do not think AP win is possible - it obsoletes with Mass Media, and we need to build a Broadcast tower to win.] Plus AP rules out Oracle.
My gut says:.
- Favor Conquest for Plan A. Get the rivals down to one city, and then build all our buildings, and kill them when needed. I'm not that worried about AI domination. ...but crippling the AI's reduces the tech pace. Self-tech everything is slow.
- Diplo - Plan B if we have to bail out from Conquest due to lack of metals - or something similar. Ideally we grab a few capital sites.
- Space -
Too many hammers for 7 cities, too much tech. - Culture - We have to research too much to run the Culture slider to take advantage of cathedrals, and GA farms might be hard with poor food.
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