SGOTM 9 - Bede
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
crazybeard
Warlord
Apparently, declaring war on a country with whom you hold an RoP will cost you an attitude point with all other AI civs, two if you have units inside their borders at the time you declare (RoP rape). Naturally, these numbers are higher for the target (Spain in this case), but at this point we really don't care about Izzy's attitude toward us, do we?
IIRC, the only Viking unit within Spanish borders was the VSS Crazybeard up by Salamanca.
IIRC, the only Viking unit within Spanish borders was the VSS Crazybeard up by Salamanca.
Here's the save http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Bede_SG009_AD1350_01.SAV
Turnlog
Turn 0/1300AD
Everything checks, press enter.
IBT: I.C. builds something forget what -> courthouse(try and get back some shields from corruption) Lost our supply of Spices so I Renegotiate the deal
Turn 1/1305AD
Found Oslo -> courthouse(can be changed by next player)
IBT: Meat Shield#3 settler -> courthouse
Vitoria Spearman -< library
Turn 2/1310AD
Moving troops around and working the workers.
IBT: CCC Cavalry -> Musket, Birka Cavalry -> Musket, EII Caravel -> Courthouse.
Celts and Ottomans conclude the following deal between themselves:
Turn 3/1315AD
Move more troops and work more workers
IBT: Bahzville Caravel -> Cavalry
Turn 4/1320AD
Change some Cav Production to Muskets
Upgrade Pikes to Muskets in Madville, CCC, Aarhus and Bahzville
IBT: Bedeville Musket -> Caravel, Mason Canal Musket -> Musket
Turn 5 1325AD
Dial up Issy and tell her I've had it with the cold shoulder treatment and Declare War!!!
Caravel S-SE(Unload)
Berserker loses 1 hp while killing def musket in Logrono
Caravel S-SE(Unload)
Berserker dies while RLing a def Musket in Logrono
Berserker kills def Musket in Logrono thus:
finish unloading the Army where Logrono use to be, for the March on Madrid.
IBT: Spanish LB loses 1 hp and promotes while killing a def knight
Physics comes in, set research to Magnetism in 8, Aarhus Musket -> Canon
Keansburg Caravel -> Courthouse, set Lux to 10%(population grows)
Turn 6/1330AD
Treb E and Bombards LB to the S(-1hp on LB)
Treb E and Bombards LB to the S(misses)
Knight E-S kills LB -N to defend Trebs
Knight S kills LB -SE onto Mountain N of Madrid
Move Troops onto Mountain N of Madrid and Hill NW of Madrid for final fight.
IBT: Spanish LB RL's Knight on Hill NW of Madrid(Knight Retreats NW)
Madville Musket -> Musket, Risor Cavalry -> Cavalry
Turn 7/1335AD
AC retreats after taking 1hp off of def Musket in Madrid
AC kills def Musket in Madrid and produces MGL Inwaaer
Inwaaer N
AC kills def Musket in Madrid
AC dies while RLing def Musket in Madrid
Cavalry loses 1hp while killing def Musket in Madrid -moves north to Defend MGL
Cavalry kills def LB in Madrid, captures Spanish Canon while
Move rest of Units to Reykjavik in preparation for Celtic fight.
IBT: Gandhi comes Calling. I give him a cup of Joe and send him on his way.
Bedeville Caravel -> Cavalry, Crackie's Lake Musket -> Cavalry, Helsinki Settler -> Courthouse
Turn 8/1340AD
Switch Reyjavik MDI to Barracks
Found Stockholm -> Pikeman
Cavalry Army started in Stockholm
Found Valhalla -> Pikeman
Cavalry kills Barb Warrior S of former Madrid
IBT: Birka Musket -> Canon, Tromso Musket -> Cavalry, Vadso Musket -> Cavalry
Turn 9/1345AD
Found New Bedeville where Madrid use to be -> Musket
IBT: Trondheim Barracks-> Canon, Mason Canal Musket -> Cavalry
Aarhus Canon -> Canon, Ch's Hideout Aqueduct -> Cavalry
Santanders Spearman -> Courthouse
Turn 10/1350AD
Upgrade Pike in Tormso to Musket
Notes: We have a Deal for Dye's with the Celts that lasts 2 more turns after you hit enter. Soon as Magnetism comes in we need to build some Frigates to combat what little navy Brennus has(3 to 5 Frigates and 1 or 2 Galleons from what I've seen) Celt city N of Coppenhagen has at least 1 Crusader, 1 LB and 1 or 2 Rifleman defending it.(not sure on the Riflemen though)
Our Units for the attack on Izmit
Our Units for the attack on Curovernum
Got 2 more cities producing Muskets to fill out last 2 Caravels with Muskets for Defense of our new lands or for Diversion on Celtic Lands. 2 Caravels west of our Continent are already loaded with Muskets. So that will give you 12 muskets for Defense of our new lands or for the Diversion on Celtic Lands. Cav Army is on Mountain SW of Coppenhagen for the Assault on the Celts to the North. Got a few Knights in route to help. All the empty Caravels near Trondheim are for the transporting of our units across to the Celtic Lands. Moved Trebs to Trondheim for Upgrade to Canon's.
Gandhi just wouldn't take the bait of undefended cities or culture flip them from me while I was playing. Guess our Capital is to close to him.
Go give Brennus a
Bede.
Turnlog
Turn 0/1300AD
Everything checks, press enter.
IBT: I.C. builds something forget what -> courthouse(try and get back some shields from corruption) Lost our supply of Spices so I Renegotiate the deal
Turn 1/1305AD
Found Oslo -> courthouse(can be changed by next player)
IBT: Meat Shield#3 settler -> courthouse
Vitoria Spearman -< library
Turn 2/1310AD
Moving troops around and working the workers.
IBT: CCC Cavalry -> Musket, Birka Cavalry -> Musket, EII Caravel -> Courthouse.
Celts and Ottomans conclude the following deal between themselves:
Turn 3/1315AD
Move more troops and work more workers
IBT: Bahzville Caravel -> Cavalry
Turn 4/1320AD
Change some Cav Production to Muskets
Upgrade Pikes to Muskets in Madville, CCC, Aarhus and Bahzville
IBT: Bedeville Musket -> Caravel, Mason Canal Musket -> Musket
Turn 5 1325AD
Dial up Issy and tell her I've had it with the cold shoulder treatment and Declare War!!!
Caravel S-SE(Unload)
Berserker loses 1 hp while killing def musket in Logrono
Caravel S-SE(Unload)
Berserker dies while RLing a def Musket in Logrono
Berserker kills def Musket in Logrono thus:
finish unloading the Army where Logrono use to be, for the March on Madrid.
IBT: Spanish LB loses 1 hp and promotes while killing a def knight
Physics comes in, set research to Magnetism in 8, Aarhus Musket -> Canon
Keansburg Caravel -> Courthouse, set Lux to 10%(population grows)
Turn 6/1330AD
Treb E and Bombards LB to the S(-1hp on LB)
Treb E and Bombards LB to the S(misses)
Knight E-S kills LB -N to defend Trebs
Knight S kills LB -SE onto Mountain N of Madrid
Move Troops onto Mountain N of Madrid and Hill NW of Madrid for final fight.
IBT: Spanish LB RL's Knight on Hill NW of Madrid(Knight Retreats NW)
Madville Musket -> Musket, Risor Cavalry -> Cavalry
Turn 7/1335AD
AC retreats after taking 1hp off of def Musket in Madrid
AC kills def Musket in Madrid and produces MGL Inwaaer
Inwaaer N
AC kills def Musket in Madrid
AC dies while RLing def Musket in Madrid
Cavalry loses 1hp while killing def Musket in Madrid -moves north to Defend MGL
Cavalry kills def LB in Madrid, captures Spanish Canon while
Move rest of Units to Reykjavik in preparation for Celtic fight.
IBT: Gandhi comes Calling. I give him a cup of Joe and send him on his way.
Bedeville Caravel -> Cavalry, Crackie's Lake Musket -> Cavalry, Helsinki Settler -> Courthouse
Turn 8/1340AD
Switch Reyjavik MDI to Barracks
Found Stockholm -> Pikeman
Cavalry Army started in Stockholm
Found Valhalla -> Pikeman
Cavalry kills Barb Warrior S of former Madrid
IBT: Birka Musket -> Canon, Tromso Musket -> Cavalry, Vadso Musket -> Cavalry
Turn 9/1345AD
Found New Bedeville where Madrid use to be -> Musket
IBT: Trondheim Barracks-> Canon, Mason Canal Musket -> Cavalry
Aarhus Canon -> Canon, Ch's Hideout Aqueduct -> Cavalry
Santanders Spearman -> Courthouse
Turn 10/1350AD
Upgrade Pike in Tormso to Musket
Notes: We have a Deal for Dye's with the Celts that lasts 2 more turns after you hit enter. Soon as Magnetism comes in we need to build some Frigates to combat what little navy Brennus has(3 to 5 Frigates and 1 or 2 Galleons from what I've seen) Celt city N of Coppenhagen has at least 1 Crusader, 1 LB and 1 or 2 Rifleman defending it.(not sure on the Riflemen though)
Our Units for the attack on Izmit
Our Units for the attack on Curovernum
Got 2 more cities producing Muskets to fill out last 2 Caravels with Muskets for Defense of our new lands or for Diversion on Celtic Lands. 2 Caravels west of our Continent are already loaded with Muskets. So that will give you 12 muskets for Defense of our new lands or for the Diversion on Celtic Lands. Cav Army is on Mountain SW of Coppenhagen for the Assault on the Celts to the North. Got a few Knights in route to help. All the empty Caravels near Trondheim are for the transporting of our units across to the Celtic Lands. Moved Trebs to Trondheim for Upgrade to Canon's.
Gandhi just wouldn't take the bait of undefended cities or culture flip them from me while I was playing. Guess our Capital is to close to him.
Go give Brennus a
Bede.
Whafo? I don't think we built any temples and it is probably obsolete anyway and the tourist trade won't be worth all that much. The Witch is dead, long live the Witch.
Edit:
And then RL reared her ugly head and I spent the rest of the day in the shop selling calendars to little old ladies. Will play tomorrow, Monday, late evening. Sorry for messing around like this but 'tis the season for retail slavery!
Edit:
And then RL reared her ugly head and I spent the rest of the day in the shop selling calendars to little old ladies. Will play tomorrow, Monday, late evening. Sorry for messing around like this but 'tis the season for retail slavery!
The Vikings in 1400AD
The roster check comes early:
Roster check
Marc Aurel - if you're back you're up
classical_hero - on the deck
Crakie - ready to burn Karakorum
madviking - with the leash - skipped
crazybeard - made some progress
Bahzel - so much for Isabella
Bede - played Monday and parlayed us into the IA
Looks like we are going to have to live with the Celts for a while. Zerks against infantry are a sure recipe for a losing battle since we have no ships capable of bombardment.
Have to take some steps to get Gandhi off his island so I pull all the garrisons out of the west wing of towns, then realize that there are no garrisons in the northern towns to speak of. If the Mongol sneezed he could blow us into the deep weeds. And muskets are only marginal defenders against cavalry anyway.
We need to rethink our strategy here. India is not taking the bait and Brennus is turning into the monster we anticipated and were just too late in getting to. Abe hasn't the guts or the gumption to take him on. It is time to remove the celtic blights from our islands, and buy tech for peace after burning the two towns and dealing with his landings. The Spanish island is going to need a lot more cannon to make that work but it will. We will probably be dealing with tanks and aeroplanes though. For some ideas on how to handle that kind of warfare take a look at Bede02 or any of the Handy series of AW games. Once the last deal the Mongol runs out move on him, by then the deal with Osman will be done and so move on him, then start getting Abe into the IA so he can put up some resistance to the Celt.
Much of the navy is is port in the western cove getting upgraded. There are a couple of galleons on the east coast of Espana for ferry duty if needed.
There is a 'zerk army and some elites heading to an Inland Sea town to support the removal of Izmit from the Celtic Empire. Use the land troops to trap any Celtic counter attack and hit Izmit from the sea, first with the army then with elite zerks if there any wounded defenders showing. Use the cavalry from the east side to soften the defenders further if needed. Once the battle is joined you can count on rifle to infantry upgrades so if the first assault does not succeed you will need to use cannon support to finish the job.
Most of the production was oriented towards siege and defense (cannons and muskets) and the workers were getting water across the northern half of our holdings as well as in Espana. With the specialists assigned as they are, and any new population in the corrupt towns can be assigned as scientists, you should be able to do 10-12 turn research at 40-60% science. There is no need for the luxury slider at all right now if you can keep an eye on citizen assignments. We have lots of coal and can start getting a productivity boost by running rails to the high shield fields.Don't bother with the west arm, buit across the north and down the east should be the railed targets.
I shouldn't have acquiesced in the Spanish adventure as that has put us too far behind the Celt to make a real dent in him until we get some more frigates and some heavier attackers. We need to work with what we got, though.
The roster check comes early:
Roster check
Marc Aurel - if you're back you're up
classical_hero - on the deck
Crakie - ready to burn Karakorum
madviking - with the leash - skipped
crazybeard - made some progress
Bahzel - so much for Isabella
Bede - played Monday and parlayed us into the IA
Looks like we are going to have to live with the Celts for a while. Zerks against infantry are a sure recipe for a losing battle since we have no ships capable of bombardment.
Have to take some steps to get Gandhi off his island so I pull all the garrisons out of the west wing of towns, then realize that there are no garrisons in the northern towns to speak of. If the Mongol sneezed he could blow us into the deep weeds. And muskets are only marginal defenders against cavalry anyway.
We need to rethink our strategy here. India is not taking the bait and Brennus is turning into the monster we anticipated and were just too late in getting to. Abe hasn't the guts or the gumption to take him on. It is time to remove the celtic blights from our islands, and buy tech for peace after burning the two towns and dealing with his landings. The Spanish island is going to need a lot more cannon to make that work but it will. We will probably be dealing with tanks and aeroplanes though. For some ideas on how to handle that kind of warfare take a look at Bede02 or any of the Handy series of AW games. Once the last deal the Mongol runs out move on him, by then the deal with Osman will be done and so move on him, then start getting Abe into the IA so he can put up some resistance to the Celt.
Much of the navy is is port in the western cove getting upgraded. There are a couple of galleons on the east coast of Espana for ferry duty if needed.
There is a 'zerk army and some elites heading to an Inland Sea town to support the removal of Izmit from the Celtic Empire. Use the land troops to trap any Celtic counter attack and hit Izmit from the sea, first with the army then with elite zerks if there any wounded defenders showing. Use the cavalry from the east side to soften the defenders further if needed. Once the battle is joined you can count on rifle to infantry upgrades so if the first assault does not succeed you will need to use cannon support to finish the job.
Most of the production was oriented towards siege and defense (cannons and muskets) and the workers were getting water across the northern half of our holdings as well as in Espana. With the specialists assigned as they are, and any new population in the corrupt towns can be assigned as scientists, you should be able to do 10-12 turn research at 40-60% science. There is no need for the luxury slider at all right now if you can keep an eye on citizen assignments. We have lots of coal and can start getting a productivity boost by running rails to the high shield fields.Don't bother with the west arm, buit across the north and down the east should be the railed targets.
I shouldn't have acquiesced in the Spanish adventure as that has put us too far behind the Celt to make a real dent in him until we get some more frigates and some heavier attackers. We need to work with what we got, though.
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
Got it, but honestly don't know really how to move on. It exceeds my abilities to fight the Celts now, that they are far too advanced for me to beat them. I do not doubt that you can beat them - the problem is, that from time to time I have to do the job and in that case we have to face the defeat. Have to evaluate the situatioin and possibilities left for my position a little longer. Can imagine no way out at the moment. In case of a normal GOTM I would resign here. If anybody knows how to win now (Crakie?) I won't stand in the way and let you take the save before I destroy too much of the situation. Monarchy imho is for fast fighting before any of the peaceful AI's gets beyond the Infantry barrier. Celts are religious, so no way to force them into long anarchy. I know you voted for fighting them in modern times, but I fear they get computers before we get to motorized transportation. I am not used to win a war with artillery, I don't use these wepons that much, cause I tend to have finished any dangerous AI of in the age of cavalry, what is my favourite weapon and I am a newbi to GOTM, so I don't know where to find something like Bede02 ???
crazybeard
Warlord
It's not very likely that all of the Celts defenders have been upgraded to Infantry. I'm not sure how the AI decides what order to upgrade in, but it always seems that the further from the Capital, the more backward the defenders (AI is awful about building Harbors). That being the case, we should have no trouble taking Izmit (the Celt city on our continent). Salamanca (NE corner of the Spanish island) has, I believe, a numerically impressive defense, but I think we can take that too. Curovernum (Spanish continent, just across the channel from the Celtic homeland) is probably too tough to crack. Once we have those cities, Brennus will probably be happy to make peace.
Long term, I think we have to acknowledge the Celts as a necessary evil. Monitor the Celts moves. If they decide to take out the Mongols, the Americans, or the Ottomans we should probably ally with them and get a share of the spoils. The Celts have a tech lead on us, and will probably continue to have it indefinately. We'll have to wait until it's Modern Armor and Air Power to take them on.
However, our primary concern has to be Gandhi. How can we coax him out of his hole and into the cities we're happy to give him?
Ditto.
Long term, I think we have to acknowledge the Celts as a necessary evil. Monitor the Celts moves. If they decide to take out the Mongols, the Americans, or the Ottomans we should probably ally with them and get a share of the spoils. The Celts have a tech lead on us, and will probably continue to have it indefinately. We'll have to wait until it's Modern Armor and Air Power to take them on.
However, our primary concern has to be Gandhi. How can we coax him out of his hole and into the cities we're happy to give him?
Marc Aurel said:I am a newbi to GOTM, so I don't know where to find something like Bede02 ???
Ditto.
To find Bede02, just go to Succession Games forum.
Hey Bede, what we researching atm?
As to this being a lost cause is far from the truth. If we do go after Celts it will be a very brief Offensive War(us taking out the celt cities we want), then it'll be a Defensive War until we can get a peace treaty.(as per Bede's plan)
Hey Bede, what we researching atm?
As to this being a lost cause is far from the truth. If we do go after Celts it will be a very brief Offensive War(us taking out the celt cities we want), then it'll be a Defensive War until we can get a peace treaty.(as per Bede's plan)
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
lurker's comment: Here's the link to Bede02. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91807&highlight=Bede02
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
Our problem as a team is I think, we have completely different understanding of the problem. I was not worried about taking those far from capital Celtic cities on our and the former Spanish continent. In fact I took the three of them (Izmit, Curovernum,Salamanca) in the first blow of the war in 1410.
But that brings us nothing closer to solving the main problem. These cities did not help Brennus in research or production, so taking them has had no primary use. On the other hand Brennus in Democracy researching techs every 4 turns has definetly reached combustion (17 techs from launch), so we must calculate he is between 80 and 100 turns from winning the game by spaceship launch, not to speak of that I am sure he will get his hands on the UN and Gandhi becoming stronger will never vote for us. Since I cannot do anything against this, solving minor problems doesn't do anything. Early negotiating apeace treaty is not really possible. They wouldn't give us even Music Theory at the monment, not to speak of a valuable tech. And in case of peace their tech race is going on at the same speed, what thwarts our last chance to stop them.
So what were the options left in this catastrophe? First I had to slow Brennus tech race down on all costs!!! to buy us time. For this I needed to force Brennus into another government than democracy by using his war weariness problem. I can tell this at the start, I failed at this point. I had to start the war asap, which I did in 1410, but since I attacked, he got a war weariness bonus of 30. Conquering 3 cities gave him penalty of 48 bringinig him overall to -18. Additionally 8 defenders died, so we can subtract further 16 points giving him ww: -34. And then, as we all foresaw, the Mongols attacked us and drew me off the main duty. I hid them hard, taking four of their cities, but they slowed the Celtic war down by 10 very precious turns.
First I intended to attack the Celtic islands to increase Brennus WW, but since I now had to build land units (Cavalry en masse) I changed the plan to lure the Celts to our continent by alliancing with the Ottomans against Brennus, hoping for Brennus taking the two northern Turkish towns to enable me to fast cutting down his ww by -48 - number of killed defenders * 2, bringing him fast across the -60 borderline. So far he took one of the two. In the Mongol war, I went around the capital to Tabriz, TaTu and Darhan to cut the Mongol Saltpeter off and head north to the Celtic landing. Our main force is now one turn from capturing Amlrikh in the north making the land way free to get at the northern Celts. Going there by sea is too dangerous now, since Brennus rules the sea by destoyers. With their advent in 1435 our navy (2 frigates and 3 galleons) suffered heavy losses and the island attacks seem to be no option any more. I had to repulse 4 uncoordinated Celtic naval invasions. Thank God the AI sucks at oversea invasions:
However the Mongols succeeded in taking East isle iron, but next turn we will get it back after we landed Zerks and took Hovd.
If the capturing of the northern cities won't help, we must face letting Brennus built a salient on our continent to capture Celtic cities. However he has all the support by happiness wonders, is building Universal suffrage, so maybe there isn't even an option to slow him down. Looking at our own science rate I think Brennus launches before we get any Modern Armor produced (we are a monarchy!) switching will cost us 9 further turns which we cannot afford any more. However we shall get at least medicine and nationalism from the Mongols next turn and industrialisation in 5 turns - 3 techs in the next 10 turns.
Improvement of our tech rate is crucial - if possible. For this FP building wouldn't have been such a bad idea. Why having a second army instead? I got another leader, but sadly while defending leaving the victorious unit alone and redlined. So I called them "onedayfly" and the next move the leader was destroyed at the hills around Tabriz.
The Indian problem is more complicated. They did not move over the total 10 turns. I already saw this total defensive AI behavior in some cases , in which they have been outclassed by the human player. I am not experienced enough to tell what is triggering this - power or culture? We have a ratio to them of more than 10 to 1 in both. That makes flipping of our cities to them completely impossible, however when they have taken our cities they will flip back for sure. We can reject the dissidents in that case - problem is that the AI is not prepared for this behavior and therefore might judge offensive as senseless. That was a late consideration of mine after I saw India did not move, so I lost us 10 precious turns. I now would recommend to abandon (destroy) one of our cities to test the Indian behavior when they have unoccupied tiles in their neighbourhood. I hope they go for settling there. However we have to cover the region cause the Celts can land and settle everywhere. For that the region should be easily defendable, so the ridge in the south is no option. The Risor region will be covered by Bedevilles culture, so it is not easy to find the best location for the experiment. I am at work now, had no time to post turnlog yesterday, since it was 2:00 am when I finished.
But that brings us nothing closer to solving the main problem. These cities did not help Brennus in research or production, so taking them has had no primary use. On the other hand Brennus in Democracy researching techs every 4 turns has definetly reached combustion (17 techs from launch), so we must calculate he is between 80 and 100 turns from winning the game by spaceship launch, not to speak of that I am sure he will get his hands on the UN and Gandhi becoming stronger will never vote for us. Since I cannot do anything against this, solving minor problems doesn't do anything. Early negotiating apeace treaty is not really possible. They wouldn't give us even Music Theory at the monment, not to speak of a valuable tech. And in case of peace their tech race is going on at the same speed, what thwarts our last chance to stop them.
So what were the options left in this catastrophe? First I had to slow Brennus tech race down on all costs!!! to buy us time. For this I needed to force Brennus into another government than democracy by using his war weariness problem. I can tell this at the start, I failed at this point. I had to start the war asap, which I did in 1410, but since I attacked, he got a war weariness bonus of 30. Conquering 3 cities gave him penalty of 48 bringinig him overall to -18. Additionally 8 defenders died, so we can subtract further 16 points giving him ww: -34. And then, as we all foresaw, the Mongols attacked us and drew me off the main duty. I hid them hard, taking four of their cities, but they slowed the Celtic war down by 10 very precious turns.
First I intended to attack the Celtic islands to increase Brennus WW, but since I now had to build land units (Cavalry en masse) I changed the plan to lure the Celts to our continent by alliancing with the Ottomans against Brennus, hoping for Brennus taking the two northern Turkish towns to enable me to fast cutting down his ww by -48 - number of killed defenders * 2, bringing him fast across the -60 borderline. So far he took one of the two. In the Mongol war, I went around the capital to Tabriz, TaTu and Darhan to cut the Mongol Saltpeter off and head north to the Celtic landing. Our main force is now one turn from capturing Amlrikh in the north making the land way free to get at the northern Celts. Going there by sea is too dangerous now, since Brennus rules the sea by destoyers. With their advent in 1435 our navy (2 frigates and 3 galleons) suffered heavy losses and the island attacks seem to be no option any more. I had to repulse 4 uncoordinated Celtic naval invasions. Thank God the AI sucks at oversea invasions:
However the Mongols succeeded in taking East isle iron, but next turn we will get it back after we landed Zerks and took Hovd.
If the capturing of the northern cities won't help, we must face letting Brennus built a salient on our continent to capture Celtic cities. However he has all the support by happiness wonders, is building Universal suffrage, so maybe there isn't even an option to slow him down. Looking at our own science rate I think Brennus launches before we get any Modern Armor produced (we are a monarchy!) switching will cost us 9 further turns which we cannot afford any more. However we shall get at least medicine and nationalism from the Mongols next turn and industrialisation in 5 turns - 3 techs in the next 10 turns.
Improvement of our tech rate is crucial - if possible. For this FP building wouldn't have been such a bad idea. Why having a second army instead? I got another leader, but sadly while defending leaving the victorious unit alone and redlined. So I called them "onedayfly" and the next move the leader was destroyed at the hills around Tabriz.
The Indian problem is more complicated. They did not move over the total 10 turns. I already saw this total defensive AI behavior in some cases , in which they have been outclassed by the human player. I am not experienced enough to tell what is triggering this - power or culture? We have a ratio to them of more than 10 to 1 in both. That makes flipping of our cities to them completely impossible, however when they have taken our cities they will flip back for sure. We can reject the dissidents in that case - problem is that the AI is not prepared for this behavior and therefore might judge offensive as senseless. That was a late consideration of mine after I saw India did not move, so I lost us 10 precious turns. I now would recommend to abandon (destroy) one of our cities to test the Indian behavior when they have unoccupied tiles in their neighbourhood. I hope they go for settling there. However we have to cover the region cause the Celts can land and settle everywhere. For that the region should be easily defendable, so the ridge in the south is no option. The Risor region will be covered by Bedevilles culture, so it is not easy to find the best location for the experiment. I am at work now, had no time to post turnlog yesterday, since it was 2:00 am when I finished.
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
The Mongol war went on with the major target Ta-Tu:
So this is the Mongol front in 1450. The Mongol is finished to beg for peace next turn after the fall of the next two cities.(Almarikh and East Isle Iron) Please, only reduce them and do not extinct them. They are weakened enough then and no danger anymore, but maybe a help later for India.
The war in the east:
1. Mongols take our city on the island:
2. Our Zerk army invades Hovd.
And here is the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Bede_SG009_AD1450_01.SAV
So this is the Mongol front in 1450. The Mongol is finished to beg for peace next turn after the fall of the next two cities.(Almarikh and East Isle Iron) Please, only reduce them and do not extinct them. They are weakened enough then and no danger anymore, but maybe a help later for India.
The war in the east:
1. Mongols take our city on the island:
2. Our Zerk army invades Hovd.
And here is the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Bede_SG009_AD1450_01.SAV
classical_hero - got a solution? even if you don't you're up!
Crakie - Karakorum is already burned, maybe you can try burning Bedeville
madviking - with the leash - skipped
crazybeard - made some progress
Bahzel - so much for Isabella
Bede - played Monday and parlayed us into the IA
Marc Aurel - got us where we needed to be vis a vis the rest of the world
S'right, looks like a tenable position. The Mongol imroglio saved us a bunch of maney from my deal for some tech (Magnetism I think).
The Celts will self destruct into Fascism pretty quickly (if they have the tech). That is going to literally kill their research pace. ON the other hand the doughty Vikes don't have to worry about war weariness. OTOH, the real challenge we have is the silly Indians and I have no clue how to solve that problem.
All of our planning was based on the notion of somehow luring India off their island so they can afford to research or buy, and I still haven't figured out how to do that. Short of burning every town we have down there and retreating en masse into the hinterlands north of the two chokepoints. It would help if we could get a MGL and put the Palace into Mongolhammer, then we could afford to abandon the rest of the southern half, after bringing the rest of the territory up ther up to snuff.
I am more concerned about running down the clock than I am about a Celtic victory. We will get to them soon enough. Getting India off his island is the key here because we have no option of shepherding him along.
"fraid I took us down the wrong path here. We should have built north into the jungle with just enough infratstructure in the starting lands to prosecute the necessary wars against the northerners to claim their ground for our home. Then we could have enticed India out of his hidey hole. Instead I advocated surrounding him with our towns. One of the weakest parts of my game is the manipulation of the other guy....
Crakie - Karakorum is already burned, maybe you can try burning Bedeville
madviking - with the leash - skipped
crazybeard - made some progress
Bahzel - so much for Isabella
Bede - played Monday and parlayed us into the IA
Marc Aurel - got us where we needed to be vis a vis the rest of the world
S'right, looks like a tenable position. The Mongol imroglio saved us a bunch of maney from my deal for some tech (Magnetism I think).
The Celts will self destruct into Fascism pretty quickly (if they have the tech). That is going to literally kill their research pace. ON the other hand the doughty Vikes don't have to worry about war weariness. OTOH, the real challenge we have is the silly Indians and I have no clue how to solve that problem.
All of our planning was based on the notion of somehow luring India off their island so they can afford to research or buy, and I still haven't figured out how to do that. Short of burning every town we have down there and retreating en masse into the hinterlands north of the two chokepoints. It would help if we could get a MGL and put the Palace into Mongolhammer, then we could afford to abandon the rest of the southern half, after bringing the rest of the territory up ther up to snuff.
I am more concerned about running down the clock than I am about a Celtic victory. We will get to them soon enough. Getting India off his island is the key here because we have no option of shepherding him along.
"fraid I took us down the wrong path here. We should have built north into the jungle with just enough infratstructure in the starting lands to prosecute the necessary wars against the northerners to claim their ground for our home. Then we could have enticed India out of his hidey hole. Instead I advocated surrounding him with our towns. One of the weakest parts of my game is the manipulation of the other guy....
crazybeard
Warlord
I wonder if Gandhi will respond to a direct attack. Send a Caravel with a single Zerk to attack the island. I know we risk an instant loss if we eliminate Gandhi, but if he has as few as two defenders, he's safe. Will he respond to this with a counter-attack somewhere?
Gandhi isn't spending money on techs, and there are only so many buildings to build, so I expect that he has any number of units sitting there.
Gandhi isn't spending money on techs, and there are only so many buildings to build, so I expect that he has any number of units sitting there.
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
Well brother Bede, I won't let you take the credit for this mess all by yourself... we all suck! 
Anyway, all we need now is a good stack of arties. I fought modern armours with cavs+inf+art many times... and if we're lucky the Celts will lack a couple of key resources and it will not be as bad as that (this will also prevent them from launching).
I still remember that GL ploy... if only...
Anyway, all we need now is a good stack of arties. I fought modern armours with cavs+inf+art many times... and if we're lucky the Celts will lack a couple of key resources and it will not be as bad as that (this will also prevent them from launching).
I still remember that GL ploy... if only...
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
Yes, Bede, it was at least as much me than you voting for a close circle of towns around Delhi. So if there is somebody to blame, it's me!
OTOH It all runs too fast for me to summarize our current agreed strategy. I thought we would head for a new home on the former Spanish continent. (needing the next MGL for that). I understand that strategy is obsolete now and we are heading to Mongolhammer? In this case conquest of Karakorum and relocating the Mongols will make sense again. So what is the plan?
@ crazybeard, you're right assuming that one single blow at Delhi won't destroy Gandhi. He has more than 1 defender. But I doubt the effect. Hitting my crushed AI enemies so far has never made them more aggressive. As I said, I fear there is a condition in the AI programming triggering total defensive behavior. I can imagine no other things than power and culture, what normaly affects AI attitude towards another player, being the source for that. Killing one Indian renders it more difficult to persuade them to come off their island IMHO. OTOH I didn't mean to abandon the complete southern half of the continent. When the Indians have build two or three towns the ratio them/us in power will increase quickly and they will get more aggressive.
@ Crakie: That makes me confident again, hearing from your skills to fight Modern armies with obsolete equipment! Would like you to demonstrate your skills in detail in the Celtic war for learning purposes for me. (earnestly, no irony!!!) To replacable parts we will get for sure!
OTOH It all runs too fast for me to summarize our current agreed strategy. I thought we would head for a new home on the former Spanish continent. (needing the next MGL for that). I understand that strategy is obsolete now and we are heading to Mongolhammer? In this case conquest of Karakorum and relocating the Mongols will make sense again. So what is the plan?
@ crazybeard, you're right assuming that one single blow at Delhi won't destroy Gandhi. He has more than 1 defender. But I doubt the effect. Hitting my crushed AI enemies so far has never made them more aggressive. As I said, I fear there is a condition in the AI programming triggering total defensive behavior. I can imagine no other things than power and culture, what normaly affects AI attitude towards another player, being the source for that. Killing one Indian renders it more difficult to persuade them to come off their island IMHO. OTOH I didn't mean to abandon the complete southern half of the continent. When the Indians have build two or three towns the ratio them/us in power will increase quickly and they will get more aggressive.
@ Crakie: That makes me confident again, hearing from your skills to fight Modern armies with obsolete equipment! Would like you to demonstrate your skills in detail in the Celtic war for learning purposes for me. (earnestly, no irony!!!) To replacable parts we will get for sure!
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