SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[WarDance]

So, we should learn from this problem and become stronger. My immediate suggestion is that before every turnset, someone should post a strategy summary. This summary should contain, clearly separated:

• Our long-term strategy, with key goals and approximate timings of these. Even if nothing has really changed from the previous turnset, then we should still write it down to be sure that everyone is agreed on what we're about to do. In our current situation this would include the conquering of our neighbors, the palace jump, the min research on republic, the new government.
• Important short-term goals for the upcoming turnset, with timing. For this turnset this would have included the sword march, and the building of the FP.
• Tips and tricks for MMing, worker moves, etc. The main point is to separate this category from the previous, so that it is clear what is strategy and what is simply helpful bonus advice.

The only issue is, who should be responsible for posting this list? It would be nice to have a rolling schedule to get everyone involved. Perhaps the player who's up should get the honor? Input here please.

I think that #2 should be posted by the person about to play the turns, so we all know what exactly is about to take place. Sometimes this will be quite simple, sometimes it can be quite complex. Long term goals can be put together by any one of us from discussions in the forum. #3... now that's what I rely on you guys for. My play style is much more of a "winging it" so I rely on the experts for the finer points of MM'ing and such.

When things get really complicated I have to print it out and check things off as I go. My last turnset of the last game was a good example of that. There's no way I could have done it all properly without that.

 

[ControlFreak]

When things get really complicated I have to print it out <snip>

New Years resolution for conservation of natural resources...use fewer word in the forums.

 

[zyxy]

CB,
I don't know what level you normally play, but I'm guessing Regent-Monarch, in which case the turnset was really well played. It's just unfortunate that the war on Mongolia is so important for our expansion and rise to glory, and so any delay is a little setback.


All,
I agree: let's try to learn from this, and then move on. Here's my list of learning points, some have been mentioned already:
- We had 3-4 pages of discussion for a single set, that's way too much. An experienced player will probably be able to sort out the mess, but I can imagine that a less experienced player can easily get confused, in particular if there is no clear line between discussion and decision. I like Niklas' idea to wrap it up, and WD's thought to let the person about to play do it - then it will be clear whether the strategy is clear to the player. This may be more diffucult than it sounds though: what is obvious to one is unclear to another, and I don't think we want people to spend hours polishing a strategy document.
- The main reason for the long discussion was that the game was standing still for a week. There were of course good reasons (Thxgiving, illness), but I think in such a case a swap might be better.
- CB hadn't posted much in the past few days, again for (the same) good reasons. I think it's not a good idea to let someone play who has been "out of the loop" for a while, and a swap might have been good to give him a gentler comeback. (In this particular case I thought of suggesting a swap, with me playing this set so that CB or Methos could bonk some Mongol heads right after me, and in hindsight I probably should have made this suggestion.)
- I would again like to urge everyone to contribute to discussions. Even if you feel outclassed, you will stay much more immersed in the game if you study the save and post your thoughts than if you just read what others say. Even if you do not have any new ideas to add, it helps to check other peoples plan against the save, see if/why/how they work, try to think through their motivation and consequences, ask what you don't understand, point out any problems you see, etc, etc. If you don't contribute much, then you easily lose touch with what's going on.

 

[zyxy]

I knew the attack on Mongolia was coming up. But it never even crossed my mind to upgrade warriors and leave our cities defenseless. I've never played a CivIII game and chosen not to have any defenders in a city. That's a shocker.

Yeah, I tend to run with almost no defenders. (Spear, what's a spear?) We're relying on our newly built units to defend the homelands. If someone is getting near, the new units stay home a little longer to fend off the usually pathetic "stack-of-doom (SOD)" the AI sends.

This is the general reason why you can "gamble" with undefended cities. If you can see AI attacks coming for a few turns, then it's enough to have units that can reach cities, but they do not need to be there.

In our particular case, there is another reason why we can leave cities undefended, and because of this, it's even perfectly safe to do so. I'll leave it as a little exercise, but it has to do with a certain technology that nobody on our continent knows yet, and with the geography of our continent....

EDIT: as CF points out below, this last paragraph is utterly wrong, so please ignore .

 

[WarDance]

I probably contributed to the confusion when Carthage declared on me and I scrambled units around in a panic. Of course right after I did this I realize nobody has boats out yet and we have units in between us and Carthage that will spot incoming units well before they reach us... The consequence of this was that I placed units as defenders where they really weren't needed. A good example of in game paranoia. Situations like these mess me up in game. It's probably a good idea for me to just stop when something like this comes up and come to the forum.

 

[ControlFreak]

In our particular case, there is another reason why we can leave cities undefended, and because of this, it's even perfectly safe to do so. I'll leave it as a little exercise, but it has to do with a certain technology that nobody on our continent knows yet, and with the geography of our continent....

Um, if you're talking about Map Making, Carthage invented boats in 1200BC and sold us the technology. Since we're at war with them, it's not inconcievable that a nasty shows up from the mountains unannounced. Not that it justifies all the swords down there but it is a possiblity.

But the rest of your comments, I fully agree with.

 

[Niklas]

It's probably a good idea for me to just stop when something like this comes up and come to the forum.

Yes.
This is a general thing. Whenever something unexpected comes along, don't hesitate to take a break and go ask for advice. And this goes for all of us, no one is immune. I've certainly been known to experience a bit of that in-game paranoia myself at times. Did anyone say granary prebuild...?

 

[zyxy]

Um, if you're talking about Map Making, Carthage invented boats in 1200BC and sold us the technology. Since we're at war with them, it's not inconcievable that a nasty shows up from the mountains unannounced. Not that it justifies all the swords down there but it is a possiblity.

uhm, sleep before you post, zyxy, not after.

 

[CommandoBob]

Cities:

• Smurkheim (4) settler in 2, grows in 2, culture expansion in 423
• Smurkzadelphia (4) horseman in 3, grows in 1, culture 0
• Smurkzgrad (5) swordsman in 6, grows in 13, culture 0
• Oy Deer! (5) worker in 1, grows in 4, culture 0
• House of the Beard (7) Forbidden Palace in 2, grows in 39, culture 0
• Nansmurkzet (4) horseman in 6, grows in 3, culture 0
• Smurkzfood (2) catapult in 10, grows in 1, culture 0
• Ol' Smurkz River (2) swordsman in 26, grows in 6, culture 0
• Olive or Die (3) galley in 15, grows in 10, culture 0
• Kalmurkz (1) catapult in 8, no growth, culture 0
• Albusmurkze (1) worker in 4, grows in 4, culture 0
• Canal City (1) galley in 27, grows in 17, culture 0
• SmurkzAtroid (1) barracks in 18, grows in 18, culture 0

Military:

• 01 settlers, 01 in production
• 12 worker, 02 in production
• 02 scouts, 00 in production
• 02 eqWorkers, 00 in production
• 04 warriors, 00 in production
• 05 archers, 00 in production
• 19 swordsman, 02 in production
• 05 horseman, 02 in production
• 00 catapults, 02 in production
• 01 galleys, 02 in production

Allowed units 52
Current units 51
Unit Support 0 gpt

Two of the three new cities, Canal City and SmurkzAtroid, are building trash, because they cannot build anything else. My initial idea was for each to build a worker, but since these cities will build a worker in ten and not grow for twenty, that did not work. Atroid's barracks could be a handy healer when we play whack-a-civ, but I expect we will capture a barracks or two.

The galley in Canal City is a pure placeholder; it seemed to be slightly more useful than a harbor, especially if we need suicide galleys. But 30 turns for a boat!

Oy Deer! is building a worker because it has no barracks to build vets and it has some unchopped wood nearby.

Albu' is building a worker for its own improvement, at least a couple of tiles.

Galley
The galley only moved two tiles. I thought they had a movement of three.
"Three shall be the number of the counting..."

 

[CommandoBob]

And feel free to rename 'Canal City'. Such a bland name.

 

[Niklas]

I think the barracks in Atroid is a pure waste. The time it would take wounded units to reach that haven will far exceed the time it will take for them to heal on the spot. And that's not counting any captured barracks.

The boat on the other hand, now that's a really good idea IMO.
We're going to need lots of boats, probably suicidal ones, and our need for them will most probably not have run out in 30 turns. I would switch Atroid to a boat as well, I see nothing better to build in those places.

I think Deer should keep pumping workers in 3, we'll need lots and lots of those. River and Albu could also start pumping workers.


Regarding the boat, the SGOTM mod includes differential naval movement (DNM). Basically in means that all ships have their movement doubled, but coastal tiles cost 3 moves, sea 2 and ocean 1. The effect is that you travel much farther across open ocean, which reduces the luck factor of suicide galleys.

DNM means we'll have to take care just how we move the boats. A galley can move 2 tiles along the coast, or it could move coast(3)-sea(5)-coast(6+) (or sea(2)-sea(4)-coast(6+) for that matter) for 3 tiles. If the situation so allows it could even do sea(2)-ocean(3)-sea(5)-coast(6+) for 4 tiles and still end up in safe waters. So while coast hugging, if you see a hint of coast beyond some narrow stretch of water, at distance 4, you can actually go for it.

 

[Niklas]

Had a good look at the save, here are some thoughts:

Invasion
Counting one of the two swords in Kalsmurkz as the last of the first batallion, we have 8 swords, 2 archers and 5 horses that can reach the Mongolian border in 4. The rest of the forces, including any newly built horses, should form the second wave. I'm counting 11 swords and 1 horse that could reach the border in 7.

The first wave should go straight for Karakorum like we planned before. The second wave should make sure that Tabriz is not a threat before moving on. That means taking care of any troops that show their ugly faces, but leave the town itself. I'm wondering if perhaps we should by-pass Almarik as well in the first go, and let the second wave go in at Ta-Tu. By the timing of things, the first wave could take Karakorum and then advance on Kazan at the same time the second wave gets to Ta-Tu.

Hmm, yet another alternative. We could let the horses form a troop of their own and let it go after Almarik. We could wait for the last horse to have 6 horses ready to attack. Offa's simulator gives them 95% chance of winning over two defenders, mean losses <1. Thoughts?

Btw, looking at the state of things I believe the question about razing or not will be fairly moot. Quite a few towns are at 1 pop, and probably won't grow much above that.


General empire management
There is no way the incense could end up in India. Border "disputes" are settled as

1. The town that is closest gets the tile.
2. In case of a tie, the town with the higher culture gets the tile.

So in the case of the incense, Delhi could be close to 20k, Grad would still be closer and thus get the control of that tile.
This is the basis of a very nice tactics called resource stealing . The AI tends to settle towns in such a way that resources end up outside the first 9 but inside the 21, and then count on cultural expansion. By settling a town on the other side of the resource, right next to it but still outside the AIs border, you get the resource in your hands instead.


The war with Carthage is a real boon! The experienced war happiness means we can sustain towns up to size 5 with no MP at lux 0%, and up to size 7 with two MPs. Don't make peace with Carthage, at any prize! I'm a bit surprized about the WH though, sure they attacked us, but shouldn't the
razed town be more than enough to outweigh that?


The settler factory seems out of whack again. Looking at CB's turn log it did produce settlers at the proper turns, but it obviously didn't get enough growth while doing so. Now it's far to small to make that settler in time. I think we should finish the current settler in 2 and drop to 3.0, then build the next settler in 5 while emphasizing commerce in order to get back up to the 3.5->5.5 sequence with added commerce.

Be back with more thoughts later.

 

[ControlFreak]

I'm also in the US (Missouri) but my timeframe is off. I work graveyard shift and sleep during the day. Weekends make it interesting as its hard to sleep at night. Perfect for civ playing!!

Sound's like going into the weekend would be good playing time for Methos, but still no word from him. I hope the wind (or Blizzard) has left him alone.

Methos, are you there? Are you in tune enough to help make up for lost game time on our attack?

zyxy is after you and might make for a good swap if you're still fighting connection problems and haven't been able to read.

 

[Niklas]

Wife and I will be sailing the Caribbean from 12/4 until 12/11. Please skip my turns until then please.

I guess that's as good a skip request as any.

So, lets do the roster again:

• WarDance
• CommandoBob - Just Played
• Methos - skip until Dec 11
• zyxy - UP!
• ControlFreak - On Deck!
• Niklas

Take it away zyxy!

 

[Methos]

Sorry guys, I've forgotten how much preparation it takes to get ready to leave for a week. My wife and I very seldom leave our house for more than a day or more so a week is a lot.

Please go ahead and skip me. We don't leave until Saturday afternoon but I'm extremely busy. Try not to finish before I get back please.

 

[ControlFreak]

I haven't looked at the save but based on Niklas' comments and CB's turnlog:

I agree with the first wave/second wave you detailed.

Wave 1 hits Karakorum and then Kazan.

Wave 2 I think should raze Tabriz and then head to Ta-Tu before joining the first task group in taking Hippo.

We can leave Almarikh as the temporary holding cell until we gift them their new prison and move them. If we station a couple of units on the two floodplain tiles, they won't be able to irrigate any of the their land and the food bonuses will be largely worthless. Razing Tabriz eliminates the iron problem and prevents their border expansion from cutting our road network. (The road was supposed to go around Tabriz.)

The settler factory has excess shields, and can be slowed down to <=4spt making 4 this turn, 6 on the growth turn and throwing away 5-7 extra shields on the build turn (it would be 1 sheild short of finishing). Most of the good tiles are usable by Grad and Adelphia, allowing HotB to gain 1fpt while still finishing the FP in 2. In slowing this down we're wasting a potential of about 12 shields which wouldn't be enough to build anything worthwhile, so I say slow it down.

The alternative is to build the settler in two turns and try to build something else as we let the pop come back up. The problem is without being able to build a warrior, it's 4 turns before we can get back to building settlers. Unless we want to build a scout, in which case we can go 3fpt for two turns, build the scout and get back to settlers in 2 turns.

 

[CommandoBob]

Invasion
...we have 8 swords, 2 archers and 5 horses that can reach the Mongolian border in 4. The rest of the forces...could reach the border in 7.

General empire management

The war with Carthage is a real boon! The experienced war happiness means we can sustain towns up to size 5 with no MP at lux 0%, and up to size 7 with two MPs. Don't make peace with Carthage, at any prize!

Minor question, not a dissent
If we attack the Mongols, which makes us the aggressor, what happens to the War Happiness?

 

[ControlFreak]

Sorry guys, I've forgotten how much preparation it takes to get ready to leave for a week. My wife and I very seldom leave our house for more than a day or more so a week is a lot.

Please go ahead and skip me. We don't leave until Saturday afternoon but I'm extremely busy. Try not to finish before I get back please.

Thanks for checking in. Enjoy your cruise! I hope the warmth sustains you for the remaining months of winter.

I had to play my last turn set right before going to my parents for a week. It's made for a dicely turnlog and some hurried play.

 

[ControlFreak]

Minor question, not a dissent
If we attack the Mongols, which makes us the aggressor, what happens to the War Happiness?

War Happiness/Weariness is indepently calculated per civ. The War Happiness from Carthage would remain, Weariness from Mongols would accumulate and the net is which ever is bigger.

I think you get a 30point WH when declared upon and lose 16 for a city being captures. EDIT: Article is here. So that explains why we're still happy with Carthage war.

 

[Methos]

Thanks for checking in. Enjoy your cruise! I hope the warmth sustains you for the remaining months of winter.

They've changed the weather and are calling for freezing rain tomorrow. So looks like we're going to have to hurry up and finish everything tonight and head out. Man am I looking forward to that 80 degree weather!

Good luck!