SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

CommandoBob said:
Alas, poor Piggy, I knew her well." - Hamlet (sort of)
I'm so pleased my allusion didn't go unnoticed.:D

I spent 2 hours on the preturn and am ready to play.

zyxy, your comments are well justified about wonders. I found out that the Ottomans have learned Music Theory so our first need is to get Bachs built in the south. I picked New Smurkheim as the fastest possible without disturbing our Hoover prebuild. I'm tempted to give it to india immediately to help them with happiness. (It won't finish for 11 turns so there's still time to talk about it.)

I had to move a few tiles around and put Albus on -1fpt to get Hoovers in 10. The tech is due in 9.

We should be in the MA in 21 turns so that means we want US to finish in 23. Grad can do it in 21 so I will finish the infantry there, build for wealth for a turn and then start prebuilds for US. I may have to buy Music Theory with cash in lieu of a good tech to sell. (You're right, Medicine is gone.) I suspect it will get cheaper next turn when Spain owns Music Theory also.

We want TOE after we learn our first MA tech so 25 turns from now. Missismurki can do TOE in 12 turns so it should start 13 turns from now. It doesn't need to be built in the south. My only problem is if Spain learns SciMethod before we finish Bachs, they'll cascade to TOE and might finish it before 25 turns. The only way to prevent that is to build Bachs in Albus and delay the Hoover project by at least 8 turns. (River is the only other eligible city in the south.) I'll risk it for now, but don't sell Spain TOE until the second turn after we finish Bachs. The worst scenario is that we take Flight and Radio with the TOE. I don't want to take a first tier MA tech in case the Ottoman's learn the same one and we miss out on their freebie.

Maybe selling Medicine was a bad idea.:( I guess there's always the war option.
 
I guess you're playing already, but... wouldn't it be better to build US somewhere other than Grad which already has the GLib? River seems like the best bet and could finish US in 20. Not that big a deal though, we could have it in Grad.

I don't think we need to worry that much regarding ToE and Spain. They still don't have Steam, and AIs normally take forever to get Electricity, they tend to go to Communism, Espionage and sometimes up to Combustion before getting it. And after Electricity they always choose Replacable Parts for the infantry.

Good luck! :)
 
Read this after it's too late to build US in River (I think). I check it out when I get back to the game. Had to stop at 1160 for now. Try to finish up tonight or tomorrow. Things are getting faster now that I've finished MM the workers/scientists.
 
CommandoBob said:
...First Mate Miss Piggy...

Pun intended :D.

---- :king: ---- :king: ----

Agree with Niklas on 'grad. Spreading out the wonders is best. Also, do we need Music now? Can't we just start a medium-fast prebuild? It's not like the Ottomans will outbuild us. Or the Spanish, even.

EDIT: crossposted again.
 
<<THE SAVE>>

I stopped at 10 turns for me and was thinking that CB could take it back and get us to 1250AD. Just seems fair since he stopped to let me play when I could.

I will post the full turn log tomorrow but the jist is:
I started US in River.
TOE started in HotB.
I finished Hoover in Albus.
Bachs is due next turn in Heim. (Sorry zyxy, didn't get your post. But I'm glad this cascade potential is out of the way. Buying Music for Steam was a bit expensive, but Spain already had Steam and paid me decently for the soon to be Obsolete Music.)

The Science Farms are about optimized but they've been Tax farms for me. (4-turns was almost exactly what we're making with libraries and unis.)

There are some obsolete units around still. The horses in towns are flipstoppers. Any other are fair game to be disbanded.

I didn't get many transports built and ended up upgrading one or two which doesn't seem like a bad idea at this point. The coastal towns have too much infrastructure to build, while the inner towns will be cranking out tanks very soon.

More tomorrow.
 
0) 1110

Swap Spicy and Oy'Deer to settler, they both have the right shields to make the settler in 1. Oy Deer has an extra pop anyway, Spicy is on the upward growth. The settlers will be sent to the Tundra island.

Nansmurket goes on starvation diet to get the Factory 5 turns faster.

Atoll cities set to grow (I don't need the specialists)

There's no reason to leave pollution with all these fortified workers. Six from the fortresses finish the job.

Science down to 0% and I still have excess science.

I go through all the science farms. There are a few at size 6 that should be at size 5. Since there are still improvements to make, I switch these to workers.

The Temple in Highway is too late and will not help get our road back. I leave Richbourough to it's own devices and switch Highway to a knight (best use of our accumulated shields).

Worker usage is disappointing, with many stacks of 2.5 trying to make 3 turn improvements.

Bursa is not that corrupt and with a library can add some food to the sparse north. Set it to use all the coasts, giving Stein another grassland. Wake workers and mine the two grasses that are irrigated to speed the uni.

Wake more workers and irrigate enough tiles around Spicy to grow in 1. I'll switch them back when we start building the uni again.

Renegotiate the spices deal from 17 to 23gpt. Since the other luxury deal is already at 22gpt, it's not worth renegotiating.

The Ottomans have learned Music Theory and Spain still has the Military Tradition monopoly. We need a prebuild for Bachs now. I want it in the south and would consider giving it to India right after it's built. The best place I can find in the south it New Smurkheim. The unfortunate thing about that is we'd lose Magelleans at the same time but I don't think that matters. So I switch the Uni due in 1 to US as a prebuild. By my calculations, Bachs could be built in 13 turns. I switch food tiles for sheild tiles with Adelphia and get it down to 11 turns. This lets Oy Deer us Heims coastal square instead of a specialist.

When all is said and done, I need 1 scientist to complete SciMeth. :crazyeye: We probably sunk a bunch of extra beakers into it and would have finished it last turn were it not for the 4 turn limit.

Since the boats have all moved, I don't do anything towards the celt tundra island this turn.

Move a few tiles around and put Albus on -1fpt to get Hoovers in 10. The tech is due in 9. Move more tiles around and join a worker to Albus and now we're at 0fpt.

IBT

Pollution Adelphia

Grad Infantry>Wealth. Deer Settler>Factory. Victoria Factory>bank. Spicy settler>university. Missi arti>infantry. Zentral inf>inf. Smurkzapulco factory>bank (we might give this up soon and I'd rather build something that will survive the handoff first. TestTube worker>wealth (fix at size 5 with 3 sci.)

1) 1120

Infantry/artillery move towards Carthage. Carthage needs 1 unit to prevent flipping so I do that. Same with Zala, Hold'em, Bursa and Deer. I don't care if Mo and OeHah flip to India. The Tad pole towns needing garrison are Seattle, Washington and Thunderfall but I don't think I have enough units for that. I'm sending a galleon from Tad to smash Agedincum.

Move workers into stacks of 6 or 12 and position in the plains by Sages/Zentral for easy location.

Remine spicy.

New settlers move to smurkzville where a galleon is upgraded to a transport for 80g. (We have $14K, the transport will get the settler to Agedincum faster.)

Late Night Spam chain is broken to send 4 infantry towards Agedincum.

Workers on Tad chop forest for Broadway worker. Finish various partial projects by moving new workers to complete then moving released workers to complete, etc. Ship Chain 4 more workers from Smurkz to Tad and worker chain to finish both Jungle chops this turn. Extra workers move to Highway to start roading/irrigating the plains there.

Relabel all farm towns to include their desired size (Z12 means it should end up at size 12). Towns that are already at their desired size are set to 0fpt and relabeled X# where the # is their desired size. The few that are above their desired size (Lamb, Texas Horses etc.) are building workers that will finish before they starve. The ones that are below their desired size are set to grow.

After making all taxmen into scientists I still don't have enough for AT in 4 at 70%. I do as much MM as possible and rush two uni's that should contribute a combined 22bpt. I hope that's enough. CAII says I have >40b surplus. If not, I'll have to raise science for a turn.

I leave the Lamb NE-NE of Sing Sing open to let Celtic leader fodder ensue.

IBT

Carthage bank>barrack. Smurkpoint Uni>Factory (I note that the screen now says 4 turns for AT). Ismurkz art>inf. River art>art. Tromsmurkz uni>factory. (Now AT in 3 so it was a good move to rush the two unis.) Vlad SE>Dock. Broadway worker>worker. Another chop will finish it and bring it to desired size 4.

2) 1130

I have a little lee way with science at 70% now that the unis are finished but not much. I undo some of the extreme sciencing I did to Vlad and some other towns.

I realize that I didn't account for the benefits of Hoover when I said it would take Grad 21 turns to make US. With Hoovers due in 8 turns, Grad will need about 19 turns. So I order a berserk that will take 2 turns and will start US prebuild after that.

Workers add some irrigation to Nan that keeps factory in 9 but stops the starving. Adelphia gets the lamb mined.

Tad chops two forests to get their towns down to the desired size. Rails irrigation continue for Highway and Cosa Nostra. Change my mind about Highway and switch it back to temple. It can at least defend it's lambs.

Atroid gets some irrigation on the turn it's due to overrun the factory, so it can use more coastal squares. (see, you never get bored of doing worker things.)

Spain must be researching Steam Power because she won't even give us Military Tradition for it. On a brighter note, she hasn't be able to trade for Music Theory either. She has only 10gpt so nothing worth selling yet.

IBT

Spain demand Steam Power and I think we're going to be at war but she's smart than she looks and backs down.

Carthage barracks>inf. Hold'em duct>market. Atroid factory>harbor. Missi inf>inf. Zentral Art>inf. Lamb worker>wealth.

3) 1140

Get the ship chains realigned with our new 9tile movement. Adding galleon to Madrid chain allows us to get to Buffalo in one move if needed.

Deal with pollution, put my workers back in the toybox. Some troop shuffling.

I'm still skirting the edge with scientists. Have to hire some in the growing farms to make it 2 turns.

Sell WM to all civs I can, worth about 7g to each but some don't have enough to pay. Celts still wont talk. Too bad for them I dropped of 4 infantry next to Agedincum.

Decide to chop the Carthage silk route. Move all units into place, pillage and rebuid one silk road. Spain has 11gpt. I know silks are worth at least 22gpt so I buy 37g for 11gpt and she now will give me all of her 22gpt for silks. I buy 3g for 1gpt and deal goes to 23. Eventually I figureout I can get the exact value of the silks by pricing her furs (101gpt) and then adding the silks. It drops her gpt price for furs to 73gpt meaning she'll pay 28gpt for our silks. I buy 14g for 4gpt and realize she doesn't value our gpt as much as we value hers (bad rep) but I still get 27gpt back for the silks if I throw in 15g. All mines and rails replaced.

IBT

India archer moves to mountain by Albus.

Grad Berserk>US. Arismurk SE>art. Ismurkz inf>inf. River art>art. Olive Factory>Dock. Sages SE (crap, meant to prebuild for SETI)>Battleship (prebuild-it can be sped up but will sacrifice a lot of bpt).

4) 1150

First Artillery hits making the archer 2/4. That should do it.

Small worker actions here and there. More chopping helps build a library in Broadway to make sure we keep our current tiles.

Our first infantry attacks Agedincum and DIES, promoting the spear to 2/4. The next infantry kills the wounded spear and an archer shows up. He is no match for the third infantry and I raze the town. I plan to put 3 towns in the corners but the transport only holds 2. They disembark on the islands two resources.

Infantry/artillery stacks are slowly replacing the units from the The Vest Vall. I disband a medi in Stein to help the uni, but I'm not a big fan of disbanding so I don't do more yet. We still have need of a lot of placeholders/guiding units.

The workers are mostly fortified in stacks near Sages. Once I get a better feel for how much pollution we're going to experience, I may add them to the Atoll cities. (need harbor or expansion)

Based on Niklas' comment I check to see if River can build Universal Sufferage in the 19 turns desired. It can right now, but calculating the added benefit from hoovers means it would actually take 17 instead of 19, so I order one more artillery and plan to start US after that. Grad switches to infantry.

One boat load takes the Sage-Madrid-Buffalo ferry and start railing lookout mountain. Attempt to ship chain a second boat load via Entremont but accidentally hit enter on the third leg ending the turn.:wallbash:

IBT

India archer retreats to Indianapolis. Lots of scouting movements by Mongols and Spain.

HotB SE>Inf. Atroid harbor>dock. Missi and Zentral inf>inf. Am-Zee bank>dock.

5) 1160

Turn off all scientist but we're still due in 4 at 70% but not close at 60%. I'm due for an over run. I MM Sages to shields and it's still an overrun. I can't find any other way to gain, so I leave it.

Spain has learned Steam Power and now has 25gpt. They didn't have anything last turn or I would have traded.

IBT

Carthage, Ismurkz inf>inf. Arismurkz art>art. River art>US. Cabana SE>Harbor. Smurkzville market>factory, set to growth.

6) 1170

Continue replacement of obsolete units but don't disband.

Workers are finishing the critical tiles on Tadpole and railing the border tiles for quicker access.

Ship chains reset preparing for military movements.

For fun, fortresses start lining the celtic area. I leave the ends unfortified so that we can leader fish if they ever declare on us again.

IBT

Celt Drops off an Archer in the south of Tad.

San Ansmurkio SE>inf. Grad, Missi, Zentral Inf>Inf. Vlad Dock>Destroyer. Kalmurkz market>harbor.

7) 1180

Archer is bombed to red then Elites are ship chained over to Tad. The first sword kills the archer but no leader.

Artillery takes the galley down to red.

IBT

Adelphia SE>Transport. Arismurkz art>art. HotB Inf>Inf. Ismurkz same. Food SE>Barracks. Cabana harbor>dock. Zala factory>bank. Stein Uni>Factory.

8) 1190

Mostly worker turns. Moved some infantry and disbanded some Medi.

Bombed TWO archers on Indianapolis border down to 2/4.

Spain has 18gpt and the furs/55gpt is coming due next turn. I don't want to sell Industrialization because of US. I don't want to sell electric because of TOE.:hmm:

IBT

India now has 4 archers!

Electronics>Motorized Transport for the tanks. Use Big Picture to switch Albus to Hoovers and Sages to Palace (SETI). Drop Sci to 50% (5-turns) to see if I can get 4 with scientists.

Carthage Inf>SE. I think we're getting enough Infantry for now. I'll just build them where nothing else is available. Food barracks>inf. Victoria Bank>Dock.

9) 1200

I can get 4 turns with just a few scientists. Sort cities by name and worked my way up from the bottom.

I'm going to finish hoover in 1 and that might finish the prebuild for Bachs in 1. I can't risk it so I'm going to buy Music from Ottomans now.

I chose to buy it with Steam Power. He's getting a good deal but the moment he owns Steam, it will devalue, unlike the 1043g he wanted.

I get 18gpt and 61g back from Spain for Music (market value).

Switch prebuild to Bachs. I need TOE in 14 turns. I'll wait until Hoovers is done and then pick a good candidate.

Disband some more units.

I don't renew the furs deal since we're happy at the moment.

IBT

SG9_Smurkz_Hoover.jpg


Nans factory>dock. Albu Hoover!>Inf. Acapulco bank>transport. Kristiansund lib>duct. Latenight worker>wealth. E.Virginia worker>wealth.

Spain starts Bachs in Mohac's.:lol:

10) 1210

Fire all the scientists but the three in Seattle (lowest X city at the moment)

River starts US but its in 12 instead of the desired 13. I swap a 3s tile with a 2s tile in Olive and it gets down to 13 as well as increasing the Dock build from 3 to 2.

I want TOE now in 15. House of Beard does exactly that so I pick it.

Join the two eqWorkers to Spicy and now even Seatle's scientists can turn to tax men.

Handoff
  • Bach's is due next turn. Spain just Started building so they won't lose much.
  • The wonder builds are actually what they are supposed to be and not prebuilds. I've calculated US to hit 2 turns into the MA to get the GA advantage on the back half of the first tech, and the start of the 6th tech as zyxy suggested. TOE to hit 4 turns into the MA. So when the first tech of the MA is learned, the next two you choose will be freebies.
  • Sages is working on a Palace Prebuild for SETI. (both 1000s so it needs to be switched via the big picture when we learn computers.) If the Ottoman's don't get Computers as their free tech, we may need to slow down Sages. That's easy to do since all the coastal tiles give two food and lots of commerce. The extra workers can also irrigate as needed to slow it down.
  • I think the workers are just for pollution and playing now. There are a couple of western towns that are building markets. We could join workers to them when the markets/harbors are finished. I've been getting 1 pollution every other turn and sometimes 2 in one turn. If they're both on mountain's we'd need 36 workers. We shouldn't have a problem with that considering the slaves we have.
  • Tadpole is finished irrigating the necessary tiles and clearing the necessary jungles. I was just adding rails to the other tiles as a precaution.
  • The towns starting with an X all have their food/specialists set. You can change back and forth between taxmen and scientists from the F1 screen by clicking on the left side of their faces. (The pick point is offcenter in a weird spot but you get the hang of it. Click a taxman once to turn into a scientist. Double click a scientist to turn him into a taxman. You can sort of tell the difference by their picture.)
  • The cities starting with Z# are planned to be size "#". For Istanbul that means building the worker to drop down in size, then setting it to 0fpt maximizing the specialists (2x 4fpt, 3x Specialists). For the others, they need to grow. If you don't need the beakers, set them all to max food. You can also join workers but there may not be many left on Tadpole. The islands have some workers on them but need a harbor for access to railing material (iron/coal). The harbor does not in itself increase the potential size: Thunderfall can be size 5 with two irrigated grasslands. A single food bonus doesn't help so I didn't bother with the deer, but the chop can help the harbor for rails; Alcatraz can use the fish and irrigated plains for a total of 8fpt which is the same as 2 irrigated grasslands (size 5, 3 specialists). I didn't get to Detroit or the newer towns on Tunda.
  • Tundra could use one more town in the corner, without harbors, they are all destined to be one scientist towns (size 1). The harbor won't help that so You don't need to bother with harbors there.
  • There are three ship chains available leaving from Victoria (E), Point (W to Buffalo) and Ville (W to Spam). The Spam Route was calculated and can be done with two boats once we build another transport. The other two I didn't look at to see if they can be done in two. The Point chain can either go to Madrid with 2 boats or Buffalo with three right now.

Things to Think About
  • When to start giving cities to India? Which ones. I think Bachs helps them a lot more than it helps us. Nansmurket has it's factory so I think that could be given as well. The Atoll cities are useless to us but not very developed. What minimum improvements should they get before turning them over? Where possible, they should get the Ivory and Dyes for happiness. We could even consider moving Carthage to a prison elsewhere and letting India have Carthage or a new town on the tip of the pennisula. Problem is we would need to give up hold'em or wait until they have a boat.
  • Should we sell Electricity to Spain for gpt. I think Nationalism would be a good buy also since the Ottoman's have probably already gotten Communism and we're going to want to head toward Espionage. Just make sure that we get TOE and US! We could also use the furs or gems since I lost WLTKD almost everywhere. Doesn't seem to effect us that much though.
  • How big should our treasury be? Can we rush some factories in the western cities in preparation for India's takeover? Since the Ivory area is one of the first to handover, but the last to get improved, cash rushing there would help. They need a court,market,factory at a minimum. Some of those are built already.
  • When to start giving cities to India? Which ones. I think Bachs helps them a lot more than it helps us. Nansmurket has it's factory so I think that could be given as well. The Atoll cities are useless to us but not very developed. What minimum improvements should they get before turning them over? Where possible, they should get the Ivory and Dyes for happiness. We could even consider moving Carthage to a prison elsewhere and letting India have Carthage or a new town on the tip of the pennisula. Problem is we would need to give up hold'em or wait until they have a boat.
  • The Great Transferance is coming in about 15 turns. We really want India to have a small core soonish. The magic number is OCN (8?). That way they could build their FP and reduce corruption. They need the cities now to start that before Apollo. If they get the Atolls (3), Ivory, Cabana (to get to Cape's Harbor), Cape, Heim (for Bachs) and Nansmurket (or one of the other Ivory region towns depending on how the borders playout) would give them enough towns. For it to matter, that needs to happen soon. They have somewhere between 2 and 4 archers. It was tough to tell the way they moved in and out of the town.

Maybe we use some of the Celt wall units to make a channel to Heim and proxy that first? Make sure the cultural buildings are sold before gifting the city and that the tiles selected for the surround cities are the ones you want. From there, we could lead the archers to the atoll region, maybe even by leaving explorers as a trail of bread crumbs to be killed on the way to the cities. When they come out the other side they'll be ready to take the ivory area if they haven't built more archers in Indianapolis. I definitely recommend rushing the harbor in OeHah and getting it's pop above 3 so that they have something to pop rush a spear with. Otherwise the archers will get trapped in cities they capture until relief arrives.
 
Good work, and nice extensive logging. :goodjob:
Don't have time to read through all of it tonight, will read and comment tomorrow.

@CB: Will you play your remaining 4 turns now as CF offered?

@WD: Can you play after CB during the weekend, or do you want to swap with zyxy?
 
Niklas said:
Good work, and nice extensive logging. :goodjob:
Don't have time to read through all of it tonight, will read and comment tomorrow.
They seem more like the ramblings of a mad man than extensive logging, but thanks. I was trying to put my process on paper because once I got the rhythm of the game, it seemed to go faster.

Two big helps now to the speed of the game are:
  • No more worrying about the X# cities. If you need more beakers to get research to come out on time, switch taxmen to scientists. If you have to many beakers, switch scientists to taxmen.
  • No more worrying about workers. It's just down to pollution cleanup unless you want to play sheild MM games going negative fpt and eating out of the granary to speed some builds up. (Mine over irrigation, make more shields while you starve, irrigate the mines again to prevent losing population.)

Good luck whoever is up next.
 
Niklas said:
@CB: Will you play your remaining 4 turns now as CF offered?
I would not be able to play tonight, which would delay whoever follows me. So I will not play those 4 turns. However, I have no problem with those turns being played by someone else.
 
Unfortunately, I can't play today, too much work. Next player choose to play 4, 10 (leaving 4 to someone else) or 14?

Alan posted the final ruling on this SG09. Fastest to have India build Apollo and learn ALL SS techs.

So from a Project Management (RL job) standpoint which is the critical path?
  • Gift some SS techs with Library, India builds Apollo, India learns remaining SS techs
    or
  • We learn remaining SS techs, gift all SS techs with library, India learns remaining SS techs.

If we are going to give the GL on the turn that the TOE completes, that would include the free tech from the Ottomans, the one that we learned on our own using the 2 turns of regular research and 2 turns of US inspired GA research, and two free techs from the TOE. 4 of 10 required SS techs. It would take us ~24turns to research the remaining 6 techs on our own with 4.5 benefiting from our GA.

So the real question is, which is longer:
  • India's getting 6 MA techs through beg borrow and steal
    or
  • India waiting 24turns and then building the Apollo.

My guess is everyone else is going to go for the latter so if we don't know which way is better, I vote for the former, just to be different.
 
CB, I think you can play those 4 turns. WD usually doesn't play on weekends IIRC, and I have little time right now.

CF, well played! Research is up to 1800 bpt now, and rising. Selling steam to Otto's is fine if Spain already has it. Good idea on the city coding.

Some comments:

- I would rather sell Industrialization to Spain than Electricity, because the latter leads to infantry, and we need ToE to be delayed longer than US. I would not sell any right now though, perhaps in 5-10 turns.

- The ToE build finishes too soon if we want the most expensive techs. My pref: Computers -> Fission & Rocketry -> ToE gives Space and Super. Note we will build faster in GA.

- It seems India managed to enter the MA. Maybe we need to give Engineering to Mongols and Americans to prevent 2fers. Looks like Ghandi did some poprushing in Delhi, but Indianapos look rather ok.

- I vote to hold the GLib until we have all techs India needs. I still have to see a convincing argument how India is going to get those techs by other means.

- The only resource needed for the Apollo program is Aluminum, so we can block Uranium until the Laurel. If we want to try the Jumbo as well, then Fuel Cells is the only space ship part that needs Uranium. Btw, Exterior Casing is the only part that needs Rubber, so we can largely block that as well, preventing infantry. If we also deprive India of Oil, then she cannot build any tanks, mech inf, planes, or modern surface ships except Aegis (which need 2 more techs). The best way to prevent nukes may be to use spies to sabotage Apollo Manhattan.
 
ControlFreak said:
So the real question is, which is longer:
  • India's getting 6 MA techs through beg borrow and steal
    or
  • India waiting 24turns and then building the Apollo.
Do we have an idea of how long it will take India to decide to build Apollo after she learns how?

Then again, does it matter? If the Apollo starts right away or 20 turns later, it seems best to get the knowledge to India as soon as possible, so that India can decide what to do. (I wonder if "gifting" several cities on that turn will make a difference in what Gandhi plans to do.)

I may have time to test gifting techs by proxy over the weekend. I'll take the GLib Elevator game, keep researching, and attempt to pass techs to Carthage by giving cities away, both in war and peace.
 
zyxy said:
- I would rather sell Industrialization to Spain than Electricity, because the latter leads to infantry, and we need ToE to be delayed longer than US. I would not sell any right now though, perhaps in 5-10 turns.
Let's just make sure we don't give Industrialization soon enough that Madrid can switch to and build it. zyxy is probably right that it's not a risk since the one turn that Spain could build Bachs they chose to build it in Mohacs which must be corrupt and not highly productive. (Also see notes below regarding TOE.)

zyxy said:
- The ToE build finishes too soon if we want the most expensive techs. My pref: Computers -> Fission & Rocketry -> ToE gives Space and Super. Note we will build faster in GA.
...
- I vote to hold the GLib until we have all techs India needs. I still have to see a convincing argument how India is going to get those techs by other means.
I set up the TOE thinking we might wanted to give the GL to India the minute we learned Space Flight. As long as we research Rocketry (or get it from the Ottomans, the TOE would grab SpaceFlight (one of the two most expensive) and then Computers, (or Fission if the Ottomans got Computers). It's not the most expensive tech to get for free, but it would give India the most techs possible the turn that Space Flight is soonest available. I think TOE is properly timed if we're going to stop the elevator before the Top.

zyxy has weighed in for going all the way to the top. If we want the elevator to go to the top then we want to delay TOE. Pick a different city to build the TOE 8 turns later than when it's currently due. That will give us the ability to learn two more 4-turn techs before TOE (Computers, Fission and Rocketry plus one other one if Ottomans get one of these for free). Don't forget that the GA will speed up the TOE prebuild!

zyxy said:
- It seems India managed to enter the MA. Maybe we need to give Engineering to Mongols and Americans to prevent 2fers. Looks like Ghandi did some poprushing in Delhi, but Indianapos look rather ok.
Sorry, I didn't check in with them all that often. I don't know when it happened or from whom. We do need to move the other civs up away from the twofer area. Gunpowder shouldn't pose a threat. We could even move them all up the entire bottom tree of the MidAge to maximize the chance we'll get Economics or the Democracy tree from them.
zyxy said:
- The only resource needed for the Apollo program is Aluminum, so we can block Uranium until the Laurel. If we want to try the Jumbo as well, then Fuel Cells is the only space ship part that needs Uranium. Btw, Exterior Casing is the only part that needs Rubber, so we can largely block that as well, preventing infantry. If we also deprive India of Oil, then she cannot build any tanks, mech inf, planes, or modern surface ships except Aegis (which need 2 more techs). The best way to prevent nukes may be to use spies to sabotage Apollo.
I'm assuming that you meant Manhattan instead of Apollo. Resource denial should work if we connect if for them, but with units standing on it. That way when we walk away, they get the resource immediately.

I still think it would be nice to give the GL at SpaceFlight just to see if our way works better than the other teams.

Here's a scenario that hasn't been brought up yet:
Once we get all the SS techs (India still needs 6 more techs) we give away ALL of our cities except 6. We sell all civs the next tech, and let India capture one of our cities. They get 1/6 of our treasury which at that point to should be in the 5-10K range. They can use the gold to buy the next tech, we can take the cities back if we need them to generate more gold, or just press on. Another tech sold, another city lost, more gold gained by India, another tech purchased or stolen by India.

CB, if you do get a chance to play with that scenario, could you try to see what India does with a gigantic sum of money in the modern age? I'm only afraid that they might use it to rush things instead of buying techs. Of course if we put them in War Weariness, they may revolt to communism and won't be able to spend the cash on rushes.
 
We do need to move the other civs up away from the twofer area. Gunpowder shouldn't pose a threat. We could even move them all up the entire bottom tree of the MidAge to maximize the chance we'll get Economics or the Democracy tree from them.
Sounds good to me.

I'm assuming that you meant Manhattan instead of Apollo.
Yes, thanks. Edited.

Resource denial should work if we connect if for them, but with units standing on it. That way when we walk away, they get the resource immediately.
This doesn't work. You need to pillage the resource to disconnect it.

I still think it would be nice to give the GL at SpaceFlight just to see if our way works better than the other teams.

The way I see it is that for each tech we have the choice between a certain delay of 4 turns, and some probability distribution on a delay somewhere between 0 turns and 100s of turns (or never). If we knew the probability distribution, then it would be easier to decide, but as we don't, we'll have to guess. My guess is that there is a large probability that India will need a very long time to get even 1 space tech, in particular as they will probably research lots of stuff before the tech we want them to have - in my test they did Economics, but it's probably randomized somewhat. In any case, the first method will surely get all techs to India in about 40 turns, and then there is a lottery for Apollo - it's probably quite random when India will start it. The second method has 2 lotteries.

Here's a scenario that hasn't been brought up yet:
Once we get all the SS techs (India still needs 6 more techs) we give away ALL of our cities except 6. We sell all civs the next tech, and let India capture one of our cities. They get 1/6 of our treasury which at that point to should be in the 5-10K range. They can use the gold to buy the next tech, we can take the cities back if we need them to generate more gold, or just press on. Another tech sold, another city lost, more gold gained by India, another tech purchased or stolen by India.

This might work. I tried something similar in my tests, by giving large amounts of money to my ally, then India takes one of their two cities and gets half of the cash. If it was a small amount (1K-2K), India spent the money on rushes and upgrades, which is not bad, as it speeds things up, but no tech sales took place. One time I gave about 12K to India in this way, and she bought the equivalent of 2-3 space techs for it. This is about right as India will need about 3K-4K per tech, if all other civs are alive and know this tech. Communism might help to prevent cashrushes, but also has poprush which is a bad thing IMO. Unless the amounts we can transfer are very large, it may not be enough to make India buy techs. This trick can be repeated because we can get some of the money spent on these tech buys back by selling more techs. Getting cash to India obviously has advantages in any scenario.
 
zyxy said:
If we knew the probability distribution, then it would be easier to decide...

zyxy said:
I tried...giving large amounts of money to my ally, then India takes one of their two cities and gets half of the cash. If it was a small amount (1K-2K), India spent the money on rushes and upgrades, which is not bad, as it speeds things up, but no tech sales took place. One time I gave about 12K to India in this way, and she bought the equivalent of 2-3 space techs for it. Getting cash to India obviously has advantages in any scenario.

I'm glad you tried something like this. Now we know it's at least POSSIBLE to convince them to buy space techs. I like your method of giving the money to an OCC civ, that's better than loosing our entire empire on a gamble and a better percentage of money going to India to boot.

This makes me even more in favor of leaving the TOE build where it is and giving the GL over as soon as TOE finishes. We can convince India to buy the 6 remaining techs through this donate cash/city, allow indian capture. The best part is we if we pull this off once per four turns, our research rate can remain at 4 turn tech rate with India getting the new tech as soon as we learn it, but we will give them the opportunity to start the Apollo 24 turns earlier.

I would also be accepting of a compromise that gets SuperConductors with the TOE 8 turns later and then we give the GL up with 4 techs left to go. That's still giving them 16 extra turns to build the Apollo.

zyxy said:
This (standing on a connected resource) doesn't work. You need to pillage the resource to disconnect it.
I don't know why I didn't know that. I just assumed it worked. Anyway, we can disconnect and have the units sitting on it with a worker/slave ready to reconnect when needed. Actually, we can avoid the war weariness and just have the units nearby ready to move onto the square when needed. The AI won't move workers to the square if our tanks can reach them in 1 turn.

If we're lucky, the other civs will research economics before we finish TOE (15 turns?) so that India won't be tempted to go that route instead.
 
Hmm, those tests with giving money via proxy seem really promising to me. I was already tempted to go with CF simply because I don't want to do what everyone else does, since then it wouldn't all be down to lottery. If we can do something differently that gives our India an edge, we can (if we succeed and win :crazyeye: ) honestly say we won on a better strategy and not by sheer luck.

We should keep working with the same proxy civ if we are to rinse and repeat. Assume we use the Mongols for this - giving them one town and 10k gp means that when India takes the town they will get 5k, and the Khan retains 5k. If we now want to give India another 5k we only need to give those 5k to the Khan, along with a town for India to take.

The only problem I see it, do we have that kind of money to spare? Remember this is in a period when we are expected to keep up 4-turn research at the same time. What is our estimate on 4-turn research in the MT? How much will we need to tax our treasury?

--- :evil: ---

It seems no one is eager to play :hmm:. Either CB or CF posts a got it tonight and plays those remaining 4 turns, I don't care who of you, or we just forget about them and keep things rolling. Next player up is WarDance, who I hope will be able to play during the week. If the 4 turns are left unplayed, WD feel free to play anywhere between 10 and 14 turns.

Let's bring this baby home, shall we? :)
 
Niklas said:
Hmm, those tests with giving money via proxy seem really promising to me. I was already tempted to go with CF simply because I don't want to do what everyone else does, since then it wouldn't all be down to lottery. If we can do something differently that gives our India an edge, we can (if we succeed and win :crazyeye: ) honestly say we won on a better strategy and not by sheer luck.

It's going to be luck anyway I think. I don't think anyone ever figured out the decision algorithm for city builds, if there is one. Anyway, I didn't test the space techs really, only some cost-increased MA techs, and there could be hidden cost factors somewhere. I would rather have some more tests before committing ourselves.

We should keep working with the same proxy civ if we are to rinse and repeat. Assume we use the Mongols for this - giving them one town and 10k gp means that when India takes the town they will get 5k, and the Khan retains 5k. If we now want to give India another 5k we only need to give those 5k to the Khan, along with a town for India to take.
Of course Mongols are going to spend some. India will also spend some on infra. So we should really think of larger sums. (In my test, I gifted 25K :) ). Best case would be if India can take several cities in one turn, but that's difficult to engineer after the first batch.

Also, we may need to chop down Spain before this, or all money is oing to end up there.

The only problem I see it, do we have that kind of money to spare? Remember this is in a period when we are expected to keep up 4-turn research at the same time. What is our estimate on 4-turn research in the MT? How much will we need to tax our treasury?

4 turn research is somewhat unlikely, especially as we will be giving up our second core at the same time.

All in all, I would say: interesting idea, but again it risks a huge delay for a rather small payoff. How much faster would India really be? 10-20 turns maybe. If it fails, she'll be slower by 100s.

On a different note, I'll be away from Tuesday to Thursday. Please skip/swap if needed.
 
I can play this week. Sorry for my lack of input lately. I've just been too busy with family stuff, speech therapy, sign language... I have some reading to do tomorrow to catch up but WILL be able to play.
 
I may have just rediscovered the wheel.

The test was to see if techs could be learned by another civ when they were gifted a city or captured a city. This did not happen. Whether the city were gifted or captured, the other civ remained just as ignorant as before.

I think I just spent my weekend to "prove" a game play feature. :wallbash:
 
Niklas said:
It seems no one is eager to play :hmm:. Either CB or CF posts a got it tonight and plays those remaining 4 turns, I don't care who of you, or we just forget about them and keep things rolling. Next player up is WarDance, who I hope will be able to play during the week. If the 4 turns are left unplayed, WD feel free to play anywhere between 10 and 14 turns.

Let's bring this baby home, shall we? :)
At day late, but I got it for 4 turns. Should post it tonight.
 
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