SGOTM 9 - Wacken

Offa said:
How is the poker going Wacken? Booked a one way ticket to Vegas yet?

Should we build Apollo now: eg if we do and the town is "captured" can we continue building parts.
Click to expand...
No we can't and why would we want to build parts?????

Offa said:
I see a Manhattan Project build going: this isn't good, is it?
Click to expand...

I figured that we better have all possible wonders built. If we don't do it Indians will start building left over wonders before space parts and we really want them to put their production facilities on space program rather than building wonders around.
 
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Wacken_SG009_AD1350_01.SAV

1300ad
I am sorry but I really don’t like the Manhattan build, so I swap Birka to a Solar plant. I don’t like the idea of India wasting resources and effort building nuclear weapons.

1305ad
A number of builds finish. Lots of cities have a lot of unbuilt improvements: tough to deal with now, but I will make a start, albeit slightly half-heartedly.

Nuclear power learnt, start Synthetic fibres, due in 4(at 80%).

Sell Ecology to Ottomans for printing, world map, 320g and 153gpt.
Sell refining to Spain for democracy, 180g and 40gpt.

1310ad
Internet finishes.

Ibt
Spain and Ottoman sign MPP.

1325ad
Learn Syn fibres.
Spanish start Shakespeares.
Reykjavik finishes an off shore platform and 5 turns are up so I will have to gift it.

Sell Spain Atomic theory for free artistry, wm, furs and 3gpt.

(Start Shakespeares in Birka: due in 6.)

MAKE peace with India and give up Reykjavik.
Declare war straight away again.

Superconductor still due in 4.

Worried a bit about the Shakespeare build so spend 140g looking at Madrid:

madrid.GIF


84spt, Shakespeare due in 5.

I don’t know about this but I choose to abandon the Seti build in Trondheim for Shakespeare's. I just hope we can get 4 turn research anyway (for Robotics, everything else is straight forward).

The Internet is about to kick in.
Abandon 9 towns (a little more than needed in fact).

1330ad
Destroy Delhi.
I have abandoned so many towns that research has slipped a turn.

Trondheim has a lot of added workers and goes to pop 24 (science 183).
Lots more scientists and 4 turn research is back.

1335ad
More cultural expansions, but the rot seems over now and we are stable at 40tiles under the limit. I have to reallocate a load more scientists. We can actually resettle a town or two.

I disband a barb camp in the north.

1345
Superconductor learnt, start Laser.

1350
New Falun is deposed to the evil Spanish.

India sends an archer out of Reykjavik.

We have a bad shortage of workers (because so many were merged into Trondheim) so lots are being built. Meanwhile there is a pollution problem.

1350.GIF
 
Cultural buildings are a waste, swap those to Mechs/MA's.

Get some workers from the northern towns.

Not many turns left of research :thumbsup: and we can then let Osman learn about Gandhi, we can give him communications.
 
I think the roster is:

Offa (just played)
gozpel (yes it's you my fuzzy friend)
Wacken
Xevious
Wotan
dmanakho

but I am pretty confused about this and much else.

Research should be easy, but persuading India to conquer and build a space ship may be unpredictable.
 
We have no uranium or aluminium on our continent. Can Gandhi build a spaceship with paper, clips and gum?

There are 3 sources of uranium and 2 aluminium on the other continent. At least what I could find.

:wallbash:

How do we do this? Gift Osman 2 towns with resources of each or what? He might be able to trade India the stuff after they learn to know each other...
 
Ok, my suggestion:

There is 2 ways to get India the resources. Gift Ottomans and hope for trade or wait for them to cross the ocean.

We try both.
We gift the Ottomans:
-Reykjavik2
-Birka2
-Trontheim2
-New Svolvaer

We do not gift our core cities to the ottomans first because we want them to stay in peace.

Meanwhile, we must prepare for the monster that India is gonna be. With some bad luck, India will have to conquer some cities on the other continent. We need to defend all other cities there to make sure they will take the right ones. And, we need the army to retake them from the Ottomans if the trade plan does not work.

Therefore, we should use our gold to rushbuild units on the other continent. Barracks are there everywhere. We should rushbuild modern armors only. When science is done, wealth will help us rushbuild more. Drafting will produce extra mech infantry. Weak conscripts of course, but good to guide enemy units to capture the correct cities.

We must also get together a new core. It doesn't need to be a powerhouse, but it should at least be something. I think it is best to make our new core on the other continent. If things really get ugly, we can leave our first continent and defend only the second one. We only need to allow India to take 2 cities there if they don't trade from Ottomans. 2 cities won't produce a lot of dangerous stuff, and our bombers can be used to intercept incomming transports. We can make New York capital.

So, to make it short and simple:
-Rushbuild modern armors on other continent. Everything on wealth when science is done and keep rush building MA. Also draft some mech infantry to have every city defended.
-Join a worker to New York, starve all other cities to 10 max, maybe 9.
-Let India take our core.
-Gift Ottomans: Reykjavik2, Birka2, Trontheim2, New Svolvaer and contact with India.
-Wait until India starts transporting to other continent.
-If India did not trade resources, retake Birka2 and New Svolvaer and leave them undefended.

Optional: gift Ottomans Molde2, Burdigala and New Falun (first conquer from spain) so they still have the chance to trade with India while India also has opportunity to conquer from us.

Optional2: Change plan and immeadiately gift Ottomans Molde2, Burdigale, NewFalun, Trontheim2 and Reykjavik2 instead of the 4 i mentioned. This will allow India to have both the trade and conquest option from the beginning, but will cost us a few more cities and thus some more specialists.

Optional3: If we have force and time, destroy spain to prevent more complicated situations.

PS: use SHIFT+CRTL+M to view empty map and you will find 3 of each on the continent.

BTW, why did you join those workers in the capital ?
When India takes it, they wont have a cultural border and the citizens will starve. IMO, this is no more than a waste of 12 workers.
I also see no reason to build many settlers, and not very many workers are needed.
 
I'm leaning on destroying Spain and keep what is useful (harbor town especially) and then plant a couple of towns on the resources or near them. Then hopefully India go there first and get their stuff.

The other options might work too, but seem very complicated.

I think I can get a few MA's in the next few turns by shortrushing at home. It's cheaper and quicker to send a couple of transports over there and captured workers can cuild airports.

I need to take a long look at the save again before I do anything foolish though.

Evil...is an understatement. :lol:
 
Destroying spain and hope to take or guard their resources for India is good, however, we should certainly create the option for them to trade it from Ottomans as well.
 
Please read this post for discussion and comment.
 
AlanH said:
Please read this post for discussion and comment.
Click to expand...

I feel this is difficult to comment on since i do not know what unfair difference it makes between the teams.
Building apollo requires less tech than we have researched for them so far. With this information, we would have gifted them our core a decent bunch earlier. Some teams who are further in progress might be disadvantaged even more.
Teams that are behind us in progress will have the advantage here.

Personally, i am sorry to say, i think the idea of this victory condition is proving to be a faillure. And if all teams chose the same path of keeping them on their island while going for research themselves, the award better be given to the team who first reached the needed tech, or in case of different modern age aproaches, who first reached modern age.
 
Ok, that indeed removes the problem of changing strategies.

Unless i am overlooking things, i don't think we can have a lot of influence on them building Apollo.
We do what we can by building every building for them in the cities, but it is probably only a little influence. A much bigger factor will be the random factor of what buildings will be lost in their conquest and the random factor of when they just "feel like building appolo"

I therefore favor to remove that random factor from the victory conditions unless i am overlooking an important method teams can use to make them build it. (Which means those who do not overlook it deserve to get the advantage from it)
If they are sure to build apollo asap, this is of course not an issue.

Waiting a possible 100 turns until they build the full spaceship at some random event sounds like a real bad idea to me. Even though it is an interesting part to provide them the resources. I just don't like waiting for random events :)

I have 2 questions remaining: You talk about persuading them to build.
-This means the start build date not the finish date ? (Which is a good thing IMO, as sometimes they might just decide to build it in some poor citiy while for another team they will build it in the biggest)
-In case democratic procedures decide that they have to build the whole ship, do they keep being hydrophobic also after taking our core?
 
I was going to play this last night, but saw the posts and went to bed instead. Now I don't feel much wiser so I wait.

As I see it, all options are random: Will they trade? Will they start Apollo? If so when and where? And when/if they do they, don't they continue to build all those units to kill us off?

Ah well, I'll wait. If worst comes to worst and we have to play "hundreds" of turns, it won't be more that a few more turnsets for each of us.

I believe they will start to build a navy as soon as they got our core with a few coastal cities, they built a curragh very early, didn't they?
 
I want to start building a spaceship ourselves to spur them on, but I take it that no one else thinks there is any value in this idea.

I we do want India to build a ship, then selling lots of resouces to the Ottoman with the hope that they will trade them to India seems likely to work, although it would be better if India captures resources themselves.

Wacken, India building Apollo in a rubbish town is up to us: we don't have to give them rubbish towns, and if we do we can persuade them to give up building Apollo there and try again. Therefore the end point should be them building Apollo rather than them starting it.

I would still like India to have to launch, as it seems a proper end point, even though them building Apollo would appear to place our team in a very strong spot.

For the moment our path is clear enough: finish research, gift everyting to Ottomans, and persuade India to take the Library on the following turn.

After that we can relocate to the other continent, switch to Communism, plant spies, build hospitals and do all sorts of stuff we would never get round to in a regular game.
 
they will not need the resources for apollo right?
therefore, they will not need a navy, they will not need many cities. We should indeed only give them the strongest 6-7 cities so they use one of those for apolly. We can start the build ourselves as well, no idea if it helps.

Lets first await the final decision on the victory conditions.
 
Winning by them building Apollo doesn't seem right. We had a victory condition and we were going for that. I don't like cheap brass medals.

Let's go for the ultimate and get that pretty space-Jumbo.

By doing all what I and Wacken said, it is possible. Kill Spain and give Osman those cites (2 of each resource) That would mean I would spend a lot of gold and start some killing, letting India to grab a town or two and let Wacken sort out my mess :lol: (what else is he good for?) :lol:

Gandhi only needs all southern cities up to Karasjok (I want to keep that) and he can grab some towns up to the NE. If he get the core, he'll be alright.

We will be able to research Espionage in 4 anyways, if it happens to be 5, so what?
 
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