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SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by Deckhand, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    At a minimum, the teams differ on which place to settle second (PD east of cow; TSR and PR 2 north of wheat), but still could end up with the same first three cities.

    Will any team besides PD decide to aim for the Oracle over The Great Lighthouse?
     
  2. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I could see TSR with the silver influx to aim for both actually, but don't lurk enough to know if they test both options.

    actually am quite surprised PD would not go for GLH with that visible island east and coastal capital
     
  3. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Right now some teams realize there could be trouble on the horizon. The specific problem I'm waiting for was discussed in one thread only, but I am quite sure the others will realize it, too. I placed some traps and goodies to reward early scouting and to punish isolationism. I don't want to discuss it here yet, as it's as step further than most teams played, but I think it wont pay off to have perfect micro if you don't care for the world this time. I'm really curious how this develops.
     
  4. Jenarie

    Jenarie Prince

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    I noticed several teams had very little strategy discussion and was really surprised. Going perfectly the wrong direction only gets you further in the wrong direction so it seems to me strategy first then micro would change depending on the chosen path.

    And I'm also surprised at the amount of teams who consider the scout a fog buster - that is probably the best micro move but seems to be the absolute worst strategy move. But then again every time I have such extreme thoughts - especially when it is against the grain of so many much better players - I tend to assume I'm missing something vital they all know and I don't.
     
  5. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    But exactly that is what makes new players valuable :)
     
  6. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    the scout is usually eaten alive after certain point anyway, so it's not very effective scouting measure and usually is matter of rng too

    you can make perfect scouting pattern, but sometimes you run into bear and that's over.

    I admit I didn't check every thread, but work boat is much safer scouting measure, so I would expect some teams should put some to use. and it's not like they don't start with fishing this time...
     
  7. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @Plastic Ducks team if you someday in the future get to this

    i admit I don't follow the threads closely enough, but can you please explain a bit the thought process behind the "why is GLH worse then Oracle".

    I remember kossin being heavy advocate of GLH to the point that GLH is "autowin" button and at this map you start with fishing AND coastal start with good food.

    I saw there mentioned couple past SGOTM's in discussion, but that is a little bit too much to backtrack, so what happened in civ world and GLH discussion?

    was it the couple of SGOTM's where mapmaker purposefully took GLH out of reach of players to realize the GLH is weaker then Oracle?
     
  8. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    I *think* they are working under the premise that this game will end relatively early (astronomy?). If that's the case, a good part of the earnings of the GLH will come so late that they can't 'snowball' anymore, while the oracle gives an instant boost that doesn't need time to pay off. But I am unsure myself. There was a nice post with quite some math in it. But it worked with some assumptions, so you can agree or disagree.
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    dunno how many players are here for learning the game and how many just watch with #popcorn as me

    but in TSR thread I run into great example of early game things:

    "Originally Posted by Jastrow View Post
    Graphs...

    Any idea what PD did?
    Built settler at pop3 instead of pop4. "

    This is actually rarely discussed since most of the time you go with your gut and heavily depends on the land/food.
    From what I remember the praxis is on the "pop3 settler" side in most games, but I can totally see how silver and earlier BW can change things with the whip.

    But there is another tradeoff and that is losing 1-t of production, usually you want to switch to slavery either at the point the settler is travelling (thus you lose production of warrior and some food) instead of losing production of settler (in case you need to whip him) or losing production of couple cities later in the game (if you wait for more optimal switch of 2 civics at the same time).

    The slavery switch ofc depends a lot on the map too, because you need to evaluate the trees and how many of them you want to consume before Math.

    I usually just chop'em all! if I have them and spare the slavery switch for later.
     
  10. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    One thing I am really curious about...if super greedy play for both Oracle AND GLH is doable.

    PD kinda aim towards oracling Currency, for which they need the GS for Math bulb so I could see why library was priority, but otoh... why so much importance on Currency? GLH offers more good TR's, doesn't offer selling techs though.

    But if the aim would be Oracle->CoL (which is pretty common strategy) you could invest production of capital into GLH since it seems they have enough production in cows.
     
  11. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Currency allows gold trades to Willem? A scenario specific benefit.
     
  12. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    I think it's primarily because you can't buy clues without currency.
     
  13. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    Hmm - maybe has something to do with a certain neighbor?

    Spoiler :
    Very interesting conjecture from enKage:
     
  14. Jenarie

    Jenarie Prince

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    I just downloaded a start file and played (quickly not ideally) the first ~80 turns which was a lot of fun. I stopped 'cause I got too far ahead so sticking with the no spoilers thing but really interested to see where this goes.

    I'm really impressed with all the thought that must have gone into creating this. Although I did have a few moments where I started to grasp why mapmakers are almost always called 'evil' mapmakers. Some of those fish are just out there to taunt... :)
     
  15. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    A few questions about your 80 turns run:

    -How many AIs did you meet? (No names please)
    -Did you try to build a wonder? Which one, did it work?
    -Was there a war between AIs at that point? (no names please)
     
  16. Jenarie

    Jenarie Prince

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    I just double checked and actually played 87 turns. Met 4 AI the last one on I believe on turn 79 so just barely. I have open borders with three of the four (and last one would) so having fun work-boat exploring while my scout zips around the interior.

    I didn't attempt any wonders which is really unusual for me but I was concentrating on getting cities up and learning the world and cranking out workers. I tend to play normally with lots of wonders and too few workers but figured in this game the more workers the better because as soon as I didn't need them they were a clue payment. Plus I've never played at this level before so had no idea of the pacing and didn't want to just lose one after the other. And I want those clues! Which was another reason to stop playing since I can't see them until the teams start buying. :)

    No wars so far but the AI are starting to run out of room to expand so it might happen soon.
     
  17. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Yeah well i hoped I was clear enough I didn't want any spoilers in your answer, that's why I placed all these "no names" things in there. But it seems I was wrong.
     
  18. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Love this one!

     
  19. GKey

    GKey Emperor

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    I think Duckweed addressed Vranasm's question, if Astro+Engineering would be enough to win the game - GLH would be a waste, plus 250 hammers wasted in early game is too expensive. Papa duck does not like wonders that much. :) He is also unsure about Oracle:

    Originally Posted by Duckweed
    It's just a roughly estimation. Because the tasks, currency becomes a necessary tech to learn early in this game. Therefore the gain from Oracle is the beaker cost of Currency ~600B plus other economical gain for about 20 turns. Let's assume 1000B totally. The cost of building Oracle is 150H(probably = 300B) plus the techs and worker turns, let's assume another 300B. Therefore the net gain from Oracle is around 400B. If we don't have mids, then the research rate in the final period to Astronomy would be around 150bpt, which needs 3 turns to output 400B.
     
  20. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

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    Shouldn't "victorytime-3turns" be good enough reason to go for a wonder?
     

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