SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

[BSPollux]

A post I'd like to discuss once everyone is (most are) done playing:

Nice, i wish worker stealing from Willy would have been forbidden anyways.
Makes no sense that you could declare war 1x, then gift some tech for getting diplo back and buy stuff..i really like this scenario, but that's weak. He would never help you again in reality.

For Shaka..seeing all his archers, it's already impossible imo.

But i guess we have to bother with that option, stealing from Willy..
we would need archers cos he will have Iron soon. Doubtful it's worth those troubles now.

As I said last game, I try to avoid to force people into doing something, instead I like to offer choices. If worker stealing is without risk, I indirectly force it, as it's needed to keep up with the other teams. I tried to raise the indirect costs (risk) of it this game. I'd like to hear (afterwards) if I was successful.

 

[WillowBrook]

Rather quiet around here. Finally some actual turns being played in the past day or so.

WastinTime predicts in post #116 that everyone will have the same 3 (presumably first) cities. That's 21 identical decisions - seems rather unlikely to me. But maybe I underestimate the power of test maps to identify optimal play? We'll see....

Test maps + team thinking. I expect all to settle 2E, cows, gems. Whether they all settle exact same sites...
And I think I know where cities 4 & 5 will go.

Spoiler :

In my test game, the scout explored west first and then looped around east. I put cities at two other places before double gems. Also I didn't share the wheat and it grew too slowly.

Looks like we'll have nearly identical decisions for the first three cities (once X-Team finally actually settles its third city), with only these differences (if my notes are correct):

- MGN and PD settled the cow site second; everyone else settled the double gems 2nd.
- TSR settled 2E of the cow; everyone else settled 1E.

As for cities 4 & 5, the three teams that have made it that far have all gone different places (horse, beaver island, northern deer, and fish island), but now I expect considerable similarity after about 7 or 8 cities (barring barb city, war, and other such inconveniences).

Any guesses as to how many teams will lose the Great Lighthouse? Or which one will buy a clue first?

 

[vranasm]

from my experience I would say that none team will lose GLH if they really go for it...

the only wonder that I think is questionable is Oracle by PD, but TGW and Judaism was very late (relatively) so I think they should get it.

I think first ones who will buy clue are PD's again, it's probably the whole point of the Oracle->Currency gambit.

 

[BSPollux]

To me it's most interesting to see reactions to the features of the scenario, obviously.

Notice how BSP has designed map so resources are just hidden out of site. this rewards those exploring.

Thanks for noticing. Still some teams plan to settle the 4-hills island without even spotting the extra fish spots
The goal is not only to reward exploring, but even some investment into faster than usual exploration. Like, in this game, the small island in the south that everyone knew about, is less valuable than the one in the north. But you'd not know that if you only used the scout. It's not so important if a team REXes like mad and settles every bit of land as fast as possible anyway.

OK, the Mansa wb thing is confusing me. It appears his boat is heading west, but if that's the case we should've met him earlier. I guess he turned it around on the turn that we met him? The fact that's hes met Shaka + Izzy and not Lizzy + Willem suggests he came from the SW though.

and

Nothing much to report. Bear claw found SW end of continent. Looks like passage between MM and Isa's continent is on the NW side of ours.

and

Ha..well there is no city up there..that is the end.. guess we should heal him then. I guess everyone is to the N then.

This is, right now, the most interesting thing happening. The mighty quest to find the AIs

 

[WillowBrook]

Just noticed that TSR didn't get contact with Lizzie via exploring English workboat like most others did ~T40, making beelining alphabet even less valuable. The RNG gives and the RNG takes away....

 

[vranasm]

actually something really interesting happened today when I fooled around with the PD save

Spoiler :

If you send work boat in the ice land down there, you will meet more AI's then just the ones settled on the island.

It's done through some events or what?

 

[BSPollux]

no comment on that one

 

[BSPollux]

The Plastic Ducks are approaching the end of the world, possibly:
Screens on this page
Or beginning with this post, if you use a different post/page ratio.

 

[BSPollux]

kcd_swede saying something I waited for:

I have a PHI difference with you here. While I am on your side that currency is not worth re-routing our plans to obtain from oracle (MC is better imo), I disagree that getting goals for the game (winning hearts) will happen soon enough on its own. Our best chance for laurels is to identify one or two goals as soon as doing so does not cripple our empire (too much). Really, that's the only way we can get a (short-lived) advantage over the PD's and TSR's. They are only doing smart BtS things while we will make some sub-optimal play, but the Heart things we are on equal footing!

Besdies, I'm sure the Lurker's thread is dying to see how a team will react when they learn the objectives.

If you can't beat them in their game, play your own!
(if that sentence makes any sense in English )

 

[WillowBrook]

Didn't the intro material clearly state that Willem is on the same continent? Players seem to keep forgetting that. Most teams have straightened themselves out, but FE is planning for the possibility that he started on a tiny island.

 

[WillowBrook]

I suspect clarification on Izzy Task#1 will be sought at some point:

Spoiler :

Do the three people have to be gifted at the same time? That is, does the first part of the task (bringing them to the capital) have to occur before the second part (gifting)?

 

[BSPollux]

First question: no.

 

[BSPollux]

If you read the current discussion in the more advanced (turn wise) threads you will find they all reached the point I was hoping for:

They feel the strung urge to go to war and conquer land and expand and all that nice stuff. But they also feel the clues might be worth getting. So now the discussion is heating up

 

[aitkensam]

From a lurking perspective, the task buying concept and the discussions surrounding them have made this SGOTM much more fun to follow for me. It's always interesting and enlightening to hear these guys discuss micro details and AI behaviour, but it does get a bit dry after a while.

I am looking forward to seeing whether buying closer to 3 or 9 tasks ends up being more optimal. PD look like they might pick and choose them, but I can't tell what TSR will do yet. I guess they will end up being picky too.

Anyhow, PD look favourites to me (unsurprisingly I guess) - early info is power. Easier to win when you know where the finish line is.

 

[BSPollux]

One thing that bothers me is that the teams are repeating lines like "mapmaker said the first tasks can be completed first".

While this is true in some way, we never said that the first task would be the easiest or best. "Get 10 great generals" would be very low on the list, as it needs zero tech to be fulfilled, but it is quite a difficult task. "Get 3 canons", higher on the list due to tech requirements, might still be easier and quicker.

 

[Jenarie]

The way I originally interpreted it was that first tasks could be obsoleted first which doesn't seem to be the case after seeing them either. I had expected that at some point in the game they would become impossible to complete (because someone else already built it etc).

 

[aitkensam]

I wouldn't worry. They will keep buying tasks for anything that they don't think is really quite painless so I imagine most will end up completing whatever the "easier" ones are anyway.

Also, I guess the cost of the tasks does not go up as quickly as the value of gold/workers falls, so most will probably buy them all by around astro anyway. Hopefully that's not too late...

 

[zamint3]

TSR Post #874

My GUESS: Their wonder is cheaper than ours... PD likes to bulb math, and they like the Oracle. My guess is that they bulbed math, oracled currency, and dont have GLH.
.......
Am I right? Who knows?

Graph reading and knowing your enemy.

 

[GKey]

My concern - 1st tasks will take long to time to be completed. Means spending 225 gold that early would be complete waste. Early in game 225 gold is a huge amount and would be much better spent elsewhere. Means teams that will get such sum later will actually get advantage over teams that due to good planning and micro managed to get it early.

 

[BSPollux]

If we assume that was true, why would it be a concern?