SGOTM3 Rome - Team Bugsy

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: notice barracks are called “Armanentarium”, funny name. based on the pregame talk, I’ll go the 2 archer/settler route.

T1: 2950BC

IBT: archer -> archer

T2: 2900BC New archer takes a peek NE, N to hills and sees a full mountain range.

T3: 2850BC worker roads, archer SE.

T4: 2800BC Archer SE onto hills to peek around the wheat. Sees some river and forests.

IBT: 2 greek hoplites’s come into view of the archer, damn! location is 3T due E of Rome. archer -> archer

T5: 2750BC Greeks want 4gpt & 101g for BW or 100g for Pottery. I decide for pottery as I don’t want to screw up our rep too. Declare war. Archer S to get a better look at the terrain. 1 archer to wine hill.

IBT: hoplites run away (N). Switch to settler.

T6: 2710BC Archer moves W, N, W to hill to see if there’s any good land that way (away from Greeks). Spot a game in a good location so that 1 city could get both. 1st archer SE to mountain. Move archer on wine hill back into Rome due to happiness. Worker SW to road grass to connect new settler. Other roming archer SE to mountain as lookout.

T7: 2670BC Archer near 2nd game moves SW and spots another BG, worker roads grass. Lookout archer SE to mountain.

T8: 2630BC Orion S to hill. Lookout archer SE.

T9: 2590BC Lookout archer SW to mountain to take a peek. Orion N to city site #2.

IBT: settler -> archer

T10: 2550BC Lookout Archer N. Settler is in position to move for the next player. I highly recommend moving him to the location where the archer is standing. With 1 game irrigated and 1 game mined + 3 mined BG’s, we can do a settler pump @ size 5 at this location. I did not move the worker either but I recommend he moves to the NW game to begin chopping.

 

[alerum68]

Had a space between uploads7 ans SGOTM3. I believe I'm up next so consider this my got it. Any suggestions on how to take the war? Just keep pumping archers, or should we attempt to do the granary route? Should we build a barracks now? Where is the best place to send the settler? I can't tell from the turn long from which direction the Greeks came from, but it looks like it may be to the southeast.

Also, our second city... should we try and set up something as a GL prebuild there? It looks like about 20-30 turns to lit.

 

[grahamiam]

thanks alerum, i'll just delete the image in my post.

imho, let beijing build archers till size 3 again, then let it build 2 more before another settler. the new town should get a granery, not Rome.

i don't think we'll hear much from the greeks till they get archers, and then we'll be in a world of hurt with stacks of hoplites and archers coming at us. I do believe they had WC. for this reason, we should now start exploring to find people. maybe the new town builds a warrior before a granery to do that. we could use BW for spears to help the archers advance.

 

[alerum68]

Yes they do have WC which means those archers are going to be coming fairly quickly. Probably in 5 turns or so... one good thing about that though is that they'll put all their shields into military which they'll end up sending ot us... will absorb some of the AI level bonus.

Also, should I mine and road the northern BG, or road the wines? What do you think about having our second city built on the site where the archer stands now? We loose a forest, but it'll have 2 game. Or should we settle 1nw of that on the grassland? The grassland will have a def bonus for crossing the river.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Exploring has some drawbacks in that we must declare 20 turns after we meet the new civ.

Let's get a stack of 6-8 archers and go hoplite hunting. I like the idea of a GL pre-build, but let's get a military unit or two out of our new city even if they are just paper cut-outs.

Additional thought - if the Greeks are SE, they may have some lousy land.

 

[alerum68]

Alright I got 2 suggestions here... 1 is go for the settler pump in the second city, the other is throwing out 2 archers from it, and then setting it up as a GL prebuild and having the capitol make settlers instead of military.... or should we forget about a settler pump of any kind, and just pop one out when we can?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I'm thinking pop a settler when we can. We're essentially in AW here. Might want to consider a barracks there first.

 

[alerum68]

It appears we have already build a barracks. I think our best bet is to just pop out settlers when we can for now, but as for the first city spot, I could use some suggestions.... the forest spot I said earlier, or 1nw of it to keep the RCP-4 instead of RCP-3?

Edit: Actually I think the forrest spot is RCP-4. I'll run the mapping program on it.

 

[grahamiam]

@alerum -> use the forest spot i suggested and yes, it is RCP4. it can access both game, getting us 2fpt and 2spt without doing anymore landscaping for that town till it's size 3.

imho, if we're not going to get our 2nd city building settlers like i suggested, then the worker goes S to the BG by the river so we can work that tile and pull in extra gold. you can then step onto the BG SE of that spot and do more mining.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

@ Alerum - I was talking about a barracks in our new city. A barracks in Rome was our first build.

I'll have to do the math, but what kind of settler factory could we get if we used the wheat and the grapes?

Edit - the two game city where the archer is standing, looks like it can be a 5-turn SF with four extra food. The Wheat and the grapes would be a 6-7 turn SF with three extra food. Check my math, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong today.

Going with the Sullla adage that "population is power." A settler factory using the two game is probably our best bet. Chop them trees!

 

[alerum68]

Turn 0 (2550BC)
Looks like Grahm left the settler active for me... graci! I think I'm going to settle on the forest spot with the archer.
Send the worker to the north to mine the BG. If the Greeks are to the SE, then this will give us a few turns of working before we have to turtle up.
Send archer on forest square where Veii will be settled back to the capitol to protect the east.
Change citizen from mined BG to forest game just to keep things away from the east.


IBT
Greek warrior pops into view from the east.

Turn 1(2510BC)
Send archer to the nw mountain. I'm gonna turtle up a bit, and this looks like a good spot to lauch some attacks.
worker builds mine
Archer sent to Capitol.
Found Veii. Set production to barracks.
Rename an archer to Julius. doesn't matter as I fort them all. TURTLE! TURTLE!!


IBT
Greek warrior moves 1nw.

Turn 2 (2470AD)
Fort archer on mountain, guarding the way to Rome.

IBT
2 more warriors pop into view, in a very bad spot 1n of the wheat square that I was going to use to ambus the warrior.

Turn 3 (2430BC)
Vet archer moves 1nw to be on a hill. Hopefully the warrior will attack across the river and the other 2 will be easy meat after that.


IBT
Nope, he didn't attack, but still in nice formation that shouldn't leave us too open.
Rome Archer - > Archer

Turn 4 (2390BC)
Vet archer moves ne and then attacks warrior - we win, 2 dam.
Wake Orion and do the same thing. We die, but he redlines, no promotion.
Wake Artemis and repeat. we win 1 dam.
Vet archer vs reg warrior - We win... barely!

Ratio 3:1

IBT
nada

Turn 5 (2350BC)
2hp Archer sent back to Rome to heal.
3hp Archer left on hill forted to heal.
2hp archer is 2 turns away from healing in Rome.

IBT
Greek Hoplite appears on a mountain to the east.

Turn 6 (2310BC)
archer left sentried on hill outside of Rome, ready to meet the Hoplite when he goes on to the plains.
second archer moved into Rome.


IBT
English scouts appears.

Turn 7(2270BC)
Make contact with England.
BW for 2GPT and 59 gold. Masonry for 3GPT and 59 gold. Won't give the wheel for anything. Can get Ceremonial bruial for 50 gold.
Take the BW deal... spears are very useful in AWE
Can get Ceremonial Burial for 3GPT. I don't see a need for it at this point, so I pass for now... hopefully it'll get cheaper.
Change Rome from Archer to Settler. Will grow and build on same turn.
This isn't good... not good at all!
The odds of us winning vs that hoplite, even though he's out in the open is around 41%... should I chance it? If it was Elite it would be better odds, but this is horrible... I think our best bet is to make spearman to withstand the hoplite 1/3/1 attack, and use our archers to take out their 1/1/1 warriors.
I'm not going to fight with those odds... if I fort up on this hill our odds go to 87% to win, and that's if he attacks.
Fort archer in Rome...

Just had a thought... will we have to break out deal and go to war with England? Do I screw up our rep? You know, I don't really care... I don't think our rep will matter to much in this game... to late now anyhow.

Worker builds road.
I'm debating if I should take the Cermonial burial deal or not... 3gpt for another 8 turns? I'm going to take it. Our rep is trashed anyway.

IBT
Hoplites bypass us, and enter our lands, sitting on a hill. Going to let them attack.
Veii barracks - > Archer

Turn 8 (2230BC)
I'm cutting it sooo close... we're pulling 0GPT with 1 gold in the bank, but we got 2 techs for very cheap.
Go to the Diplo screen and see France. They're up all techs, INCLUDING writing. There went and chance of brokering.

IBT
Hoplite moves so it's 1ne of Rome. Again, not going to attack with the def bonus. He's going to pillage the BG but it's worth it. We're not using it right now anyway.

Turn 9 (2190BC)
Call up Greeks. They're up Masonary but that's it.


IBT
Hoplite ignores us and seems to be going after our worker.
Writing comes in. Research set to lit at min in 40 turns. Is the best we can get even going as high as 90%.
Rome Settler - > Archer

Turn 10 (2150BC)
We need to get our GPT up, so I'm going to use an archer to attack the hoplite... if 2 are needed to get rid of him, it may actually be better for us now.
vet archer vs reg hoplite - SWEET! We win! Now what do we do? We're running over in gold.
worker sent back to rome so it can road the mines if the next leader chooses.
Leave the settler active.


Notes:
On turn 5 of the next leaders turns we have to declare war on England. This will cancel our GPT with them, but will trash our rep, which I don't think will matter to much in this game... at least I hope it won't.

Score is 112.
Here's the save

 

[alerum68]

Didn't have your guys post to go off when I was playing, but did pretty much as you suggested... excpet with the worker... I moved him based on where I figured the Greeks would come from.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

We have to declare war on the 20th turn after we met England. That will be turn 7 of R & L's turns. Our rep isn't trashed yet.

The AI considers a hoplite a defensive unit and in vanilla or PTW, the AI won't attack with a defensive unit. The hoplites will be headed for a pillaging campaign. We do not want to turtle with archers. Archers only have defense 1 and your odds of success are better on the attack. You just need to pick your terrain.

If you are consciencely going to make a decision to trash our rep, good SG form would be to let the team discuss it before hand.


Order of civ contact:
Greeks - at war - started in 2750 BC
England - declare war in 1950 BC
France - declare war in 1375 BC

Roster
Denyd
G-man
Alerum - just played
Bede - Up
R&L - On deck
Bugs

 

[alerum68]

Like I said Bugsy, didn't mean to trash it, just feared I did because it was around 2 turns later before I even thought about the variant rules... glad to know that we still have our rep intact as trashing it wasn't my goal, just felt resigned to it after it happened.

 

[mad-bax]

Please re-read the explanation of the variant rules in the maintenance thread. Link in my sig.

You have not broken a rule yet... but you will find that you need to declare war on England 20 turns after you declared war on Greece.

FWIW I think hanging on to your Rep was a forlorn hope.

 

[grahamiam]

did we get Masonry? if not, next player please buy it. we need to be able to do a palace prebuild if we want the Great Library.

nice set alerum but if you want answers to questions, please practice patience. members of this team live in different timezones so it may take a little time to answer. waiting 1 day is more desirable than just jumping in if your unsure.

now, the next question we need to address is the location of our new settler. anyone got an updated map we can review?

 

[grahamiam]

@ Alerum - I was talking about a barracks in our new city. A barracks in Rome was our first build.

I'll have to do the math, but what kind of settler factory could we get if we used the wheat and the grapes?

Edit - the two game city where the archer is standing, looks like it can be a 5-turn SF with four extra food. The Wheat and the grapes would be a 6-7 turn SF with three extra food. Check my math, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong today.

Going with the Sullla adage that "population is power." A settler factory using the two game is probably our best bet. Chop them trees!

see the bottom of my turnlog:

With 1 game irrigated and 1 game mined + 3 mined BG’s, we can do a settler pump @ size 5 at this location. I did not move the worker either but I recommend he moves to the NW game to begin chopping.

I meant we could do a 4T settler pump. math as follows (please verify):
CC : 2f, 1s
irr grass game: 4f, 0s
mined grass game: 3f, 1s
3x mined bg: 6f, 6s

totals @ size 5: 15f (+5fpt) and 8spt (probably 7 due to corruption). when the city grows (if we set the govenor to emphasis production), the citz should land on a forest and we just MM to a grass to maintain +5fpt.

we could use another worker to get this running quick however, i'm not sure what size Rome is right now, probably size 2 so i'd rather have her continue building archers or spears.

 

[RowAndLive]

Please re-read the explanation of the variant rules in the maintenance thread. Link in my sig.

You have not broken a rule yet... but you will find that you need to declare war on England 20 turns after you declared war on Greece.

FWIW I think hanging on to your Rep was a forlorn hope.

@M-B: I don't think it was a forlorn hope. I'm wondering if that second paragraph of the 20-turn rule has been edited since the game started. We ALL took the original rules to be 20 turns from the turn of contact with Civs 2+, not 20 turns from the beginning of the war with Civ 1, provided that the war with Civ 1 was still in progress. I don't think that we all would have made the same misinterpretation... It was clear to us what was meant, it just seems now to have been wrong. Did this come up as a problem somewhere else that required the rule to be changed? Was it rewritten because it was unclear? Or did we all misinterpret the rule? If we did indeed misinterpret, then given the combination of variants, our rep would automatically be trashed if we accepted any deal for gpt unless it was with the second civ that we met on the same turn as someone else. And since there is no haggling, then basically you'd have to do no trading in order to keep your rep intact - in which case it is worthless anyway.

Regardless, the rules are the rules, and we must abide by them, but it would be best if they were clear upfront, and never changed after any game started. ((Please note that I am NOT accusing you of doing so - it just may be that your interpretation was clear to you and not to us, and that when clarified, it came across as being changed. Some of us try very hard to play by "ethical" / RBC rules, and would not have made the trade if we trashed our rep. Bugsy's, Alerum's and my posts show this.))

 

[mad-bax]

[2. You must declare war on the first Civ you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
3. You must stay at war with that Civ until one of you have been eliminated.
4. You must declare war on the second Civ you met on the same turn that the first Civ was eliminated or 20 turns has elapsed (whichever happens sooner). This is to prevent sandbagging.

This is a quote from the game announcement and from the first post in this thread. It has not changed in any way from day 1.

 

[grahamiam]

from the 1st page of this thread:

4. You must declare war on the second Civ you met on the same turn that the first Civ was eliminated or 20 turns has elapsed (whichever happens sooner). This is to prevent sandbagging.

i too interpreted this to mean that we had 20 turns after contact or immediately after the 1st civ was eliminated to declare war. however, as long as all the teams are playing by the same rules (and it appears by his log that Alerum understood MB's interpretation and decided to trash our rep anyways), it's fine by me. All the more reason to go get Mas from someone. the 3rd city will help with gold but we should pull out all the stops to get it for the palace prebuild. otherwise, without the Great Library, we're going to have to research everything ourselves.

edit: x-post