SGOTM3 Rome - Team Peanut

[bigchief]

So should I go first as suggested? If you all think we are ready I can play it tonight. Last minute suggestions anyone?

I think we have hashed out our opening plan pretty good, so I say go ahead and play when you are ready. We can spend some more time planning after you play and we get a better feel for what we are up against. And, it is within the rules to stop during your turns and discuss if needed. After reading some of the other teams threads from the previous games, they tended to do that some.

 

[Peglegasus]

All right, I need to go re-download a screen capture program (I just set up a new hard drive) and then I'll get started. Last minute question: should I go straight for bronze working to iron, or go pottery first?

 

[Keith Larson]

My vote is still with the BW/IW path.

 

[Peglegasus]

Ok that's the direction I was leaning so that's what I'll do. Here goes....

 

[Peglegasus]

Save has been uploaded. Pretty tame so far

1) 4000bc settled on spot. worker west. bronze at 100%
2) 3950bc worker roading bonus grass
3) 3900bc roading
4) 3850bc roading
5) 3800bc road done. now mining.
6) 3750bc warrior complete. milling about the town.
7) 3700bc nothing to report

8) 3650bc nada.

9) 3600bc nothin.

10) 3550bc not much

11) 3500bc Rome size 2, mine and second warrior complete. worker south across river to bonus grass. warrior 2 exploring southwest. expansion reveals wheat on plains east.

12) 3450bc worker roading. warrior west to hill. sees river to coast, forest with game, and 2 bg's. nice spot.

13) 3400bc my weak micromanaging skills are revealed! we have 3 warriors and a worker, our max without upkeep. settler build in 6 but growth not for 8. i could have built an archer. oh well. building another warrior in 2 and then settler in 6.

14) 3350bc warrior 2 s. warrior 3 se. drop science to 80% without effecting research time.

16) 3300bc warrior 4 complete. settler and growth in 6. worker now mining. warrior 2 east. warrior 3 north.

17) 3250bc warrior 1 east to hill. sees cattle on south coast. lakes near cattle.

18) 3200bc warriors pulling back towards town.

19) 3150bc 1 turn to bronze. warriors heading back.

20) 3100bc bronze working completed. growth and settler in 2 turns.


And there you have it. Will post a screen in a minute.

edit: oh, bother. screen capture program not working and i gotta go to bed. will try again in the morning. anyway, the save is up

 

[civ_steve]

aaaaand we're off! Peglegasus: you shorted yourself 2 turns! (I don't see a turn 15 on your turn log, and 4000 BC is sort of a freebie.) Doesn't matter; bigchief can play 12 turns.

Not bad at all; we do have an extra Warrior which is costing us 1 gpt; an archer is probably a better idea, but once we have our 2nd city the cost is no more.

Here is a main image screenshot to ponder:

And the list of our opponents:

Settler in 2 turns. Where to found the next city? Ideally I think the next site should be able to share the game space near Rome and one of the improved BG's, that way it's productive immediately, and can benefit 1 turn in 3 from the increased food that the cleared game space will provide. Perhaps the hill space 4 moves SW of Rome; it shares the GAme and one of the BG's, it is on the river so no aquaduct needed, and it is a hill space for defensive purposes. Another Hill space 3 NW and 1 SW move from Rome also shares these characteristics. In either case, be sure to escort the Settler with at least 1 Warrior.

We just researched Bronze-Working, so the Iron-Working has no research put into it yet. We've done a good job of hiding so far - no contacts. Perhaps we should research Pottery next to get a Granary going in Rome shortly. We want something to build to put the shields gained from chopping the forest into.

We're off to a good start.

Roster and status:

bigchief <--- UP!!!
civ_steve
KeithLarson
Peanut
Peglegasus -- just played

civs contacted and dates: NONE


(edit: I just checked our F4 diplomacy screen; no other faces and our advisor is saying "Make more friends!"; Ha Ha, he is definitely not with the program yet!)

 

[bigchief]

I've got it. I will play this evening or early in the morning. What about putting the 2nd city where it is shown in the attached image? It's on a hill for defense. It can immediately share the game tile with Rome. It will have 2 BG tiles of it's own from the start. If we can get CB and Pottery, we can chop the 3 forests to help build a temple and granary (temple first if possible, then we can chop another 1 or 2 forests for the granary). After the border expansion, we can have 2 irrigated game, 4 BG tiles, 4 hills, and maybe still a forest or 2. This will be a super factory. We may even be able to do the 4 turn settler & warrior combo. Of course, it is not on fresh water, and we would have to share some tiles with Rome, and it very much depends on getting CB and Pottery early.

What do the rest of you think about this?

 

[Peglegasus]

I don't know what happened with my being short 2 turns was late I guess. Was wondering why I ended at 3100 bc.

I scouted south initially because of our map position. Figured it was the least likely direction to meet another civ. There are lots of options for good city sites as you can see in the screenie.

I have a question for the micromanagers in the group. I was using the roaded and mined BG tile and the game/forest tile while Rome was pop 2. If I had used the second BG tile which had been roaded but not mined yet we would have had one extra gold for research but would have been 1 less shield. That would have meant extra turns for the settler. I felt that the settler was a priority so I went with the extra production from the forest/game. What would you have done? I realize now that if I had used the roaded tile instead I probably wouldn't have ended up with an extra warrior. I swear I learn something from every turnset with you all.

Also at this point in the save research is at 80% with Iron in 36. Moving a worker to the roaded and newly mined BG will speed the way to iron... but in 2 turns our settler pops out. Won't that drop research back to a 40 turn deal basically? I think in my save I left the citizen on the game tile so they should probably be moved. After I uploaded I moved the citizen and increased research and found that Iron could be shortened to 30 turns.

And this morning I realized my screen capture problem. I downloaded a trial version that doesn't let you save any shots! What's the point in that? "yippeee it actually took a picture of the screen and I can't do anything at all with it! Joy!" Wonder where I downloaded my other one from that I used before.

 

[Keith Larson]

Bigchief, I like the location of your suggested city. I think a three square ring is the way to go anyway. I makes sense to share improved squares in the early game.

I can't help but note that the map is very different from the original GOTM 16. I wonder what else will be different?

We need to talk some on how we will handle first contact. The way this varient is set up is different than the way I have played before. I always assumed you had to declare war at first sight. The first deplomatic screen opens some possiblities. One being purposely staying one step behind in the tech race and having little gold. In this way no one will have any reason to contact us. I know this sounds radical, but if we are going for the GL, we will catch up anyway.

Of the F10 list of nations the Greeks are by far the worse case scenario, followed by the Iroquois. An early war with either could be tough. I think we all need to agree to stop when we see our first opponent and map out a plan appropriate for that nation.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[civ_steve]

bigchief: that's a good location for a city; I think a better spot is the hills space 1 N 1 NE from the hills you indicated (I'll load a picture later). This hills space is on the river, has both game in its expanded radius, accesses 3 new BG (that we know about; more spaces come into play in the black unscouted zone), is distance 3 from Rome (the hills space you indicate is distance 4), and has lots of river spaces in its radius.

Peglegasus: in this case, with river spaces already generating 1 commerce, I would have mined the BG's first then built the road. (Often I do it the other way around, which allows the Worker to run away if need be.) 2nd Settler is important, so production is fairly critical. An archer in this situation is probably a better way to go. The Settler build will drop Research momentarily, but it will jump back up once the 2nd city is founded; we should definitely maintain a fast research clip currently.

Keith Larson: I thought the map looked different; I didn't go back to check though. It seems that we need 3 Techs currently: Iron-Working which we are researching, and Pottery and Ceremonial Burial. I think I count 4 Expansionistic and 5 Religious civs, so I'd be surprised if we can't trade for both once contact is made. (The Iroqouis could provide both!) I'd suggest we keep with the Iron-working research.

First contact Trading: this may be our only chance to trade for Techs, so I think we have to do so. I have no problem trading away any of our existing Techs - Warrior Code, Alphabet or Bronze-Working. What if we finish research of Iron-Working and then make contact with someone? Chances are it will be a 2nd or higher contact. If so we have a little time to gain a more valuable Tech. In that case, I'd reserve Iron-Working for Writing, Mysticism, Math, etc. I could probably persuade myself to trade it for Masonry or the Wheel (or both); probably not for Ceremonial Burial or Pottery (but maybe as part of a 2 for 1 deal - like Iron-Working for Pottery and Wheel.)

To summarize: I suggest we trade any of our 1st tier Techs for other 1st tier Techs, and whatever Gold we can get (remember, no haggling), and reserve Iron-Working for multiple 1st tier Techs, or a 2nd tier Tech, if we have the option to wait.

Also, Greeks would be tough with their 3 defense unit. We could lose a lot of units attacking those; best to do harrassing and wait for Legions and Cats. Iroqouis aren't bad until they get horsemen; perhaps try for horse denial as a strategy if they are nearby. Babylon and Aztecs have early UUs and GAs; they're not very strong units, but the GA will make them super productive meaning a lot of effort on our part to hold them off. The Aztec Jag in particular could be bad for harassing us - pillaging spaces, killing Workers, then withdrawing.

 

[Keith Larson]

civ steve: My point was not so much about trading, but about delaying war. I personally feel that the cost of being in an early war is greater than any techs we may gain through trading. If we can stay right on the heels of our opponents until we get to Literature (which we will be the first to research) they will have no reason to open a diplomatic screen and thus no war! Just think what with means. While all the other teams are fighting desperate wars of survival, we are quitely expanding our empire, building our SOD and the turn we get Literature the first diplomatic screen opens, we declare war and our SOD heads for our enemy!

 

[civ_steve]

Keith: What is your proposed research path? To stay behind we would probably have to avoid IronWorking right now. Forging straight on this path we should now do Writing, then Literature, trying to finish GLib right at that time. However, that would mean no Granaries, no Temples, and no knowledge of Iron or Horses at this time.

Maybe a better way is to research Pottery now, to allow Granary builds. Then do Ceremonial Burial to allow culture where needed. After that, do Writing. The delay should be enough that we don't research Writing first (triggering a possible trade), but we wont be far behind either. Then Literature at full tilt, trying to time a GLib build to finish about that time.

This is just a thought on how to implement your strategy. It seems a bit risky, but with several developed cities and sufficient Spearmen, Archers and Warriors, we might be able to pull it off (just in case they contact us anyway). Is this along the lines of what you were thinking?

 

[Peglegasus]

Maybe a better way is to research Pottery now, to allow Granary builds. Then do Ceremonial Burial to allow culture where needed. After that, do Writing. The delay should be enough that we don't research Writing first (triggering a possible trade), but we wont be far behind either. Then Literature at full tilt, trying to time a GLib build to finish about that time

I think on emperor difficulty we will get too far behind if we research ceremonial burial and pottery ourselves. I think it's probably about time we made first contact and try and trade for pottery and whatever else is available. I think that if we stay on track for Iron Working by the time we finish it the AI will already have writing, the wheel, etc. Or we should research writing ourselves and trade for Iron Working.

 

[Peanut]

Generals - looks good so far. Your points are good CS and others. I would not be keen on researching CB but Pottery is a must for faster growth. We should not need much culture this game and we can get happiness through connecting luxuries.

I would urge delaying war as soon as possible, which means delaying contact as long as possible. If that means being ignorant so as to avoid AI initiated contacts then ok. Growth is the key for us at this stage - the more cities we can plant then the bigger armed force we can muster and the better value we will gain from our GA.

Once we get IW then in Legions we will own a powerful offensive and defensive unit which will serve us well until Knights appear.

 

[civ_steve]

So is the concensus then to reseach Pottery (avoiding the trade), and enable faster growth, then research Writing and on to Literature? Plan for a GLib build? Meanwhile, build up empire, expand cities, get Barracks going, build up a force of Vet Warriors (and Vet Archers with some Spearmen); once we learn Literature save up money for upgrades.

An issue is not knowing where Iron is. We have to plan for building GLib quickly!!

 

[bigchief]

I am for sticking with Iron Working. There are 12 civs in this game. If it's like the original GOTM game, there is more land than normal, but the civs are still likely to be packed in close together. We can't afford to not have iron. It would be really bad if the first two civs we meet are far away, and we also have to declare on a nearby civ to get Iron.

I also think there will plenty of trade opportunities early on. Whether we like it, or not, we will be contacted by someone and at war soon. But, with the number of other civs out there, we will be able to trade some before having to go to war with some of them. CB and Pottery are too easy to get from trading or huts to take a chance on loosing Iron, even if it means we go to war a few turns sooner. I say we go Iron, Writing, Lit. and count on getting pottery and CB from a hut or trades.

I will be playing in the morning. That is about 12 hours from the time of this post. I will read back through the thread before playing, but hopefully we will have some agreement as to the direction we are going to go in.

 

[Keith Larson]

I realize that what I am suggesting is very risky, but it would give us a chance to build up before we go to war. As long as we don't have any techs the AI wants, a strong military and not enough gold to purchase a tech the AI will leave us alone. In a normal game trading for pottery is a no brainer, but in this game the cost is war either immediately or in 20 turns. That is a steep price for a tech that can be researched so quickly. I say Pottery, Masonry (to start pre-build), Writing, Literature, Iron Working. I doubt we will be able to trade for IW without giving up Literature which we don't want to do at all costs. The hard part will be fighting a holding action until we get IW. It may make sense to move IW up before Lit as we will be doing a pre-build anyway. I also suggest after about 10 more turn to agressively explore the map. I doubt we will have anything of value the AI will want and researching known techs will speed our research up.

 

[civ_steve]

keith: two questions. 1.) If you don't contact a civ immediately after meeting one of their units or cities, do you still have the ability to initiate diplomacy in F4 later? Even if one of their units or cities is not currently visible? (I don't know; I've always initiated diplomacy at first contact before) 2.) If you haven't officially contacted them, are you sure we still get the research reduction for known techs?

Estimating Tech research turns: Pottery (10), Masonry (25), Writing (30), Literature (20) is 85 turns from now. (These might be a bit pessimistic). Roughly 450 BC. If we get reduced research costs, this might take 15 turns off or so, making it about 750 BC. Everyone else will be Middle Ages for sure; if we don't get GreatLibrary we are totally hosed!! I assume the upshot of this is to build a big Knight Army and stomp around; at this point we don't know where Horses or Iron are; the AI will surely have them connected and be producing units.

Rome could build a Granary, and then Great Library, in about 55 turns from now. (It's almost the same time with or without the Granary, and I'm assuming for this example that Pottery is researched next.) Another city, assuming it gets some Joined Workers to help it along, might build it in 60-65 turns from date of founding (assuming size 6 with 2 MP's, 1 Luxury and about 20%Luxury tax to keep the city out of CD.) We're right at turn 20. I don't advocate using Rome or city#2 to build the GLib, so it will be about turn 40 before this city get's built. Say Turn 100 to turn out GreatLib, or about 550 BC.

IMO, this is too much delay. For every city we build, every local AI will also build one. I think the key to this game is learning IronWorking, finding the Iron and controlling it. That way, we build our Legionaires, and the AI gets Archers/Spearmen/Warriors and Horsemen (although we can try to control horses too.) I don't mean hook up every source, but make it real hard for the AI to do so. Start the wars soon (but not too soon, and in order; I'm not totally masochistic ), just to harass the AI, slow their research down, make them waste units coming to us. Then build up to take the war to them. After we control our continent, then we really develop it, saving up for future invasions. (It would really suck if M-B changed the GOTM to be Pangea!)

I'd suggest research of IronWorking (say 30 turns to do), maybe trade with them then or shortly before (getting Pottery), set up city#2 as the Settler factory (2 games within radius, eventually) and Rome as the military builder (Barracks, then Vet Archers/Warriors for a while.) We are Militaristic; I'd set up city #3 or #4 to pre-build for GreatLib and see if we can generate a GreatLeader to make the job easier. Assuming we can control the local AI, don't take them all the way out; leave them a city or two, still at war, which will generate an occasional Archer that we can try to get a GLeader from. At that point (if we get to that point) we can take them out anytime, and we might get to rush a bunch of Wonders that way.

 

[Keith Larson]

Civ-Steven: To answer your questions, yes they will show up on the F4 and yes our research will speed up even if you do not make "official contact."

I realize that what I am suggesting is risky. I am not opposed to still going IW next and hope for the best. I just think IW has a high chance of initiating the "official contact" and thus war. If this is the case we need to be ready for war in 30 turns.

 

[civ_steve]

Keith: thanks for the answers! I didn't know that would be the case.

I agree with the "ready to be at war in 30 turns", also, if we go IW next.