SGOTM3 Rome - Team Peanut

[bigchief]

Turn 0 3100BC - Nothing

Turn 1 3050BC - A Hoplite walks past (no contact)

Turn 2 3000 BC - Rome: Settler -> warrior. Worker moves to connect wines. Hoplite moves next to our warrior (no contact)

Turn 3 2950BC - Warriors Explore

Turn 4 2900BC - Veii founded

Turn 5 2850 - Warriors explrore. Worker starts roads on wine hill.

Turn 6 2800 - Rome: Warrior -> Barracks

Turn 7 2750 - Warriors explore

Turn 8 2710 - Veii: Warrior -> barracks

Turn 9 2670 - Warriors Explore

Turn 10 2630 - Warriors Explore

Turn 11 2590 - Warriors Explore

Turn 12 2550 - Rome: Barracks -> Archer

 

[bigchief]

Here is the Save

 

[civ_steve]

I saw that a save file had been uploaded, so I downloaded it and got a sneak peek at bigchief's final save.

No contact with the Greeks; this feels so wrong Oh well. Upon looking at the save I moved the Warrior out of Rome to fortify on the Wines space. (It would be very bad if the Hoplite moved there, then Alex contacted us!!) I also bumped Research up to 90%, reducing the time to 13 turns.

We're at turn 30 now, with no contacts. Except for possibly Warrior code, we match Techs with Greece; unless they've made other contacts or researched something else, they have nothing to offer for it. Greece's Hoplites are a worse case scenario; we'd lose a lot of Archers against them. I think the best strategy (when war comes) is to block their Hoplites with Warriors, letting them attack at 1:1 odds; any Archers we make are more to counter other Greek units that aren't protected by Hoplite. Following this path we should build more Warriors (perhaps run a slight deficit at times), and cities as fast as possible to support the army.

So, we can hurry along, learn IW as fast as possible, probably trigger earlier contact and earlier war, and have better chance to trade IW, and know where Iron is earlier.

Or, we can proceed to where we almost know it, say 2 turns away, then turn research to minimum, adding say 10 turns delay in possible contact. We would gain a little more time, but might lose any trade possibility.

(I'm leaning towards the 1st path.)

 

[bigchief]

Here is another screenshot of the greek border area. From what we can see he has at least 6 mountains in his capital border. I lightened the area that we couldn't see, and it looks like there is a hill for sure, and possibly a hill or forest also. The first tile of tundra that we can see to the SE of Rome is far enough north that if you take a direct line east, he may have tundra in is capital borders as well. He may not have much to work with. Unless the rest of his hidden land is really good, we certainly have 2 cities that are much better than what he has.

 

[Keith Larson]

Greece is the worse case scenario! I definately believe that warriors defending against pillaging Hoplits is the most economical path. Without capapults the archer to hoplit lose ratio would eat us alive. The added benefit of this stratagy is we will have plenty of warriors to up grade to Legionaires. I reality attacking Hoplites will be attacking at worse than 1:1 and we will have the attrition advantage. In fact, I think our early strategy is to fight an war of attrition: Bait the AI into making stupid attacks, pillage their homeland, pick off workers and settlers. All the while we are building up for a Legionaire and catapult rush.

Thus the following build priorities:
1) Enough warriors to cover every improved threatened improve tile, city and worker with 2 warriors. We don't need to cover non-threatened tiles. In fact, I have found such tactics leads the AI to move around trying to get to the uncovered tile (which of course we cover once they are in range). The other thing we need warrior for is to explore in hopes of an IW trade or better yet our first war with someone other than the Greeks.
2) Archers to pick off their archers. Typically the AI does not think about defending attackers with spearmen, rather they use the spearmen exclusively for pillaging and city defense. What we don't want to have happen is the archers getting near their frustrated pillaing Hoplits. They will pair them up at that point. So the key is to get them on rout to us.
3) Spearmen for pillaging, defense of key areas, stacked with archer killer stacks.
4) Settlers and workers to expand and improve. This is just as much a part of a war of attrition as attacks against the enemy. We will lose the war of attrition if we get too far behind in cities.
5) Walls only as needed (of course we need masonry).

As for slowing down I think two factors come into play. 1) Have we found any other nations who we can trade with? 2) Do we want to save gold for immediate Legionnair upgrades?

 

[civ_steve]

All very good points! Maybe we research at full, and see how many potential contacts we have. If we only have 2 (Greece and ???), or only just Greece, maybe at that point we decide to delay finishing IW until we have 3. If we have 3 as we're nearing our research of IW, perhaps we finish it off, and get ready to trade.

If we do have multiple potential contacts, who do we choose to contact first? If we choose someone further away than Greece, this will give us more time to prepare, both for the far off civ and for Greece. OTOH, if Greece appears weak and vulnerable to being harassed and pillaged, they're probably the better choice.

It would be nice to meet an Expansionistic civ; that would get us Pottery (potentially), and they may have picked up other Techs from huts to trade for.

 

[Peglegasus]

hehe. i had a dream last night ...

"The Great Wall has been completed in Athens"

doh! I wonder who our other neighbors are. Please not Carthage too!

 

[Keith Larson]

Clarification on the "contact issue." I did some testing and the way it works is this: IF you walk up to the border of a country the contact is remembered on the F4 screen. If you see a unit but don't open a screen that contact is NOT remembered. This is different than I thought. It this point it does not impact our game as we have been to the border of Greece, but we will have to decide as a team what we will do with the next sighting.

 

[civ_steve]

I thought that was the case for a sighting of an AI unit. Makes sense that a border sighting would persist as an available contact, I guess.

I think we'd like at least 3 civs for initial trading, so if we've found a 2nd civ's city radius, and see a 3rd civ's units, and have just learned IW, that's probably a good time to make contact. Otherwise, I think I'd rather find their cities, and not contact their units. (Unless we're already at war, I guess.)

(Recently I've been having these odd thoughts about Galley exploration and how the changing map gets back to the home area, especially in the case of suicide galleys!! I'm imagining these ships loaded up with cages and cages of homing pigeons; every 40 years (or 25, or 20, or 10) the descendents of the original crew open a cage and send back a pigeon with the latest Map knowledge. Just a random musing I remembered due to the odd happenings within Civ3.)

Peglegasus: I don't believe Carthage was on the F10 space race list. Greece should be the only 3 defense unit we see until Feudalism is out.

BTW, I've got it and plan to play tomorrow morning.

 

[bigchief]

Keith - I read your last post, and I thought I remembered Alexander being on the diplo screen after seeing the hoplite, but well before I saw the Greek border. I wasn't 100% sure, so I went back to an auto save, but it was too late for me to test. I then went back to the original save and played the first 3 turns the same way I played them before. Alexander is on the diplo screen, and we are not near, and can't see, the Greek border.

Here is a save to look at it:

 

[civ_steve]

No further inputs posted - I'm off to play the turn sequence.

 

[Keith Larson]

Perhaps the sighting mystery has to do with who see who first. I both cases in my test game I sighted the AI because of my move. The very next AI move they moved out of my sight. Now if it were the other way, perhaps "contact" would have been made. Another possiblity is that a line of sight has to be maintained for a full turn. Not just one player half. No wonder why there is confusion on this issue!

 

[bigchief]

You may be right about the one full turn thing. On my first turn, I just caught a quick glimpse of the hoplite as he passed by, and at the end of the turn he was no longer in sight. The next turn I saw him again as our warrior stepped on a mountain. Then he came towards our warrior. The next turn our warrior and the hoplite were standing side by side. It was at the end of that turn that I saw Alexander on the diplo screen.

 

[civ_steve]

Alright Peanuts! Please buckle your seat belts and remain inside until the ride has come to a complete halt. (This wont be for at least 100 turns!!)

Turn Log:

Turn 0, 2550 AD
One of 'them' is next to our Wines. We will fortify our Roman MP (not needed at this point due to Luxury) on Wines; our Stone Axe will convince this 'Hoplite' to move on.
Tell Scientists to increase their investigations into this 'Iron' concept. (90% - 13 turns)

Turn 1, 2510 AD
Wisely, the 'Hoplite' goes North. Sure, they act friendly, like they're one of us; but we know better.
Rome's Barracks is set to build a Warrior next.
North Warrior sees another Luxury (Silks)
NE Warrior sees outline of 2nd Greek city (more of 'them')

Turn 2, 2470 AD
Rome fin Warrior, starts another
Veii grows to size2; 1 turn to Barracks, 10 turns to IronWorking
NE Warrior sees Sparta city from Mtns; they have Incense

Turn 3, 2430 AD
Veii fin Barracks - Warrior next
Adjust Science to 80% to pay for maintenance on Barracks
S Warrior locates a source of Spice nearby
Work goes to River BG near Veii

Turn 4, 2390 AD
Rome fin Warrior, beg Settler
NW Warrior finds a large collection of Spice (3 more tiles)


Turn 5, 2350 AD
N Warrior sees another 'Hoplite' further North, and a hint of a cultural Boundary (pinkish)


Turn 6, 2310 AD
Veii fin Warr, beg Settler


Turn 7, 2270 AD
Euuugh! There are aliens everywhere. That silly looking 'Hoplite' is still to the North; N Warrior sees the Pink Culture; they call themselves the 'French'. N Warrior also sees a scout from some people that call themselves the 'Russians', and NW Warrior sees an 'orange' civ just ahead.

Taking deep breath (this scout guy smells bad!!!) we decide we need to see what else is going on in the World

Russia:

for Alphabet they offer 20 Gold (nyet!!)
what do they want for Masonry - no offer
what do they want for Pottery - no offer
what do they want for Ceremonial Burial - no offer
what do they want for IronWorking - Alphabet + 4 Gold (Bingo!!!!)

She was SO pleased we could come to a deal. We don't like her attitude - Declare War!!!

What do you know, there is Iron very close to Rome! (We dedicate a shrine to mad-bax, the new god of resource location)

Gearing ourselves for a trying visit, we seek out an emissary from Greece

Greece:

Alex has the Wheel! We've met our War Quotient for this Millenium, so we decide not to rid the earth of him and his 'Hoplites' ... for now. You just wait until turn 57!!

Somehow the 'pink' culture seems more inviting -

France:

After, ahem, some 'negotiations', we ask Joan what she wants for Masonry and Pottery, just IronWorking and 16 Gold

(I think we're getting to like 'contact'), we bid adieu

We go back to Alex's court:
"what do you offer for Iron-Working", he gives us Wheel and 8 Gold

Set Research to Mathematics, at 10%, +6 gpt

Turn 8, 2230 AD
NW Warrior sees a Blue Warrior near the coast; he says he owes allegiance to Hammurabi of Babylon

Babylon:

no trade at this point

Turn 9, 2190 AD
NW Warrior finally contacts the 'orange'; it is the English

England:

no trade at this point


Turn 10, 2150 AD
Rome fin Settler, beg Warrior
Settler off to found at River Delta, to South of Rome

fini
END OF LOG

In 2270 I could see that we had 3 cultures around us, Greeks, France and England. It appeared likely to me (still not 100% sure), that East of France was a coast. So when I saw Russia's scout, it seemed to me that Russia was likely to be 'beyond' France and England. Before it ran away, I decided it was the best time to do initial contact; if I'm correct, it will be at least 20 turns or so before Russia can get her forces near us (they haven't seen our core cities yet!!); by that time we should be Legioned and quite ready for whatever she sends.

Our research of IW paid off; the reduced cost of IW due to our reseach investment, coupled with Russia not having gotten Alphabet yet, formed a golden deal.

I chose to contact Greece next. Again, in 20 turns we should be ready to start operations with our Legions, and I don't think Greece will be able to stop us at that point.

I contacted France next. Not because I thought Joan should be the 3rd civ we go to war with, but I wanted to see what deals were available for our recently acquired IronWorking. I was able to get two important initial technologies, Masonry and Pottery. I then went back to Greece and got Wheel, gaining us the Horse locations.

I'd almost contacted England, when a Babylonian Warrior happened along. Since they are 'beyond' England, it's probably useful to have them in the queue before Elizabeth, so I contacted them. Finally I contacted England.

Several civs have Ceremonial Burial (the only Tech we don't have so far), but we only have gold to offer for it. I think it's time for a minimum research of Math to save up gold for Legion upgrades; so I didn't trade for it.

Here's a zoomed image of our map; Light Blue circles are Iron deposits (1 just 2 spaces from Rome!), Dark Blue is where I contacted the Babylonian Warrior; Light Brown is where I contacted the Russian Scout.

The Iron near Greece will be difficult to get to, especially for Greece. Unless there's another source near them, we should be knocking on their door with Legions before they hook it up.

A future city should secure the iron to the North (between us and England/France), probably sooner than later.

I recommend forming the next city at the Red Circle; this is distance 3 from Rome, it's coastal and on the river. It's not on a hill, but this should be an interior city eventually which shouldn't require the defensive bonus. I'm thinking it should spit out a Worker, then start on a pre-build for Great Library. (I just realized it was unaccompanied; I reloaded the game and moved 2 warriors out with it, so that escort will be in the official upload.)

Veii is working on a Settler; now that we have Pottery it might make sense to switch to a Granary. I'll leave that decision to Keith, with input from the team.

I checked F3 advisor; with our 9 Warrior army (3 Vets), we are Strong compared to France, and Average to everybody else. Not bad, Peanuts!!

Finally, England is really taking off. She has 5 cities at the end of this sequence! They might be spread around; likely if she got them from huts. (In fact, it would kind of suck if the orange culture is due to a hut and not her native core; that might put Babylon and/or Russia closer than I thought.)

Okay, team roster:

bigchief
civ_steve -- Just Played
Keith Larson <--- UP!!!
Peanut
Peglegasus

and civ contact status:

Russia, contact in 2270, at WAR
Greece, contact in 2270, must be at War by 1575 BC
France, contact in 2270, must be at War by 1075 BC
Babylon, contact in 2230, must be at War by 610 BC
England, contact in 2190, must be at War by 210 BC

I'll be gone this weekend, be back Sunday night. Enjoy! next!!

(edit: here's the 2150 BC Save.)

 

[Keith Larson]

Requesting team input before my turn.

First of all great set of turns Steve!

I am all for Civ-steve’s GL pre-build location. What do the rest of you think?

The Veii Settler vs. Granary choice is harder than it seems on the surface. Normally I would switch to granary, but one of our short term goals (amass gold for upgrading) will be hampered by a granary. Not only will the granary cost us 1G per turn, a new city will give us 4 more free support. We are currently supporting 3 units as it is. A settler would also secure the northern iron or the SW horses. With this being said the long term benefits of a granary are amplified by an early build. I have had games literally turn around for me because I built a granary. Their power is a wonder to behold! One final point Veii with it’s two bonus games is the most logical choice for a granary. I think I have convinced myself to switch to granary unless I hear otherwise.

Next worker job? If I build the granary I think I will chop the woods to get the food flowing into Veii. I think we will want the shields to go to Veii so we will have to make temporarily switch Rome to a Wonder (the new city will have finished it’s work and have started it’s pre-build).

 

[bigchief]

Granary would be nice, but there is not that much room for expansion anyway. By the time it's built there may only be room to settle 2 or 3 more places. By the time we can build a granary and then produce a settler from that town, we could have 2 or 3 settlers built, and would be in much better shape with our military.

In a normal game, I would say granary for sure, but we can't think or play like we normally would. This is an entirely different game. We really are going to have to play this like a 5 to 8 city challenge, then worry about expansion after we eliminate some of the others.

 

[Keith Larson]

Thanks for the input bigchief. I agree that we will have to play it different, but not at the expense of the bigger game. Because of the more rapid growth rate a granary does make up its cost over time. With our tight build we have much more than 2 or 3 city sites left. What do the rest of you think?

 

[civ_steve]

Veii is definitely the place to build a Granary; this will have many eventual long term benefits: we can't capture cities with foreign citizens in them, so we will need lots of Settlers, and we need many more Workers than we currently have (both to improve the land, connect resources, etc, and to bulk up our existing cities.)

For me its almost 50-50; a 4th city means we can get up to 16 free unit support, just about enough, and if we place it right we can bring both the 2nd game and the horses into our cultural radius.

A granary would take 8 additional turns past the 4 more turns to turn out a Settler (maybe less if we can chop the game), so 12 more total, but after that a Settler would probably take only 5 turns.

Well, I'm leaning now towards - build the Settler in Veii and found a 4th city, properly placed to gain Horses and 2nd Game for Veii; have Rome crank out Vet Warriors, Veii then works on Granary (after Settler), and city 3 do Spear, Worker, then pre-build for GL, city 4 do Spear, Worker, then whatever.

Probably should have some Warriors out as an early Warning system, as our forces build up.

 

[Keith Larson]

I like your suggestion Civ-Steve. This is the best of both worlds. We DO need a worker/settler factory for the reasons you state. But to do this propery we need two bonus food tiles, while this build order will give us. I also like the idea of horses as they can give us some offensive options without the Legionary to delay the GA. If this is the case I will move the worker after he complete the road to the new Bonus Game and start choping to speed the Granary.

 

[Keith Larson]

Here's my first three turns. Will be at a friends until later tonight.

Turn 0: 2150 BC
Nothing

Turn 1: 2100 BC
More exploring.

Turn 2: 2070 BC
English are building the Pyramids. Antium founded and starts Spearman. One of the escorting Warriors heads to Veii to lend his services again. More horses sighted to NE in the mountains. See Russian Scout again. Worker completes road, rather than chop Bonus Game, he starts road to horses. We may be in need of then soon. Income up to 10 Gold per turn!

Turn 3: 2030
Veii complete settler, starts granary. Nothing else of interest.