SGOTM3 Rome - Team Peanut
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
(Just saw your post bigchief! 
Maybe we should suggest it to Firaxis!! Unfortunately, the only cease-fire we'll get is when every extra Babylonian unit is toast.)
I've had a chance to review the save file. I'd say the Walls have paid for themselves!
It looks like the Bombard Athens plan has failed; if we can't bombard Athens down a bunch of hitpoints, then we'll either have to chance a Legion Rush, or leave them for units with more power (Knights). If we decide to leave them for now, we should send a few Legions out on pillaging duty to harass Greece as much as possible.
There's a lot of things we need; we're currently paying 24 gpt for our units, so we need more cities, desperately. I'd suggest that Antium, which is using two Grassland tiles with no shields being generated, switch those to the two forests it has access to and finish HE quickly. Then have it spit out a couple of Settlers. We also need more Workers; perhaps Pisae, which is finishing a Barracks, should build either a Settler/Worker or Catapult/Worker. We have many tiles to still improve and we'll never control the Mountains to our North without roads for our Catapults to travel along. Lutetia should build Workers; with access to a Cow but only generating 1 Shield, this would be a good use for it.
We are up to 29 Legions, with 10 more Warriors to upgrade (although these seem to be all Regular Warriors). I'd propose that we not build any Legions, instead build Horsemen. With Mono being known now, by ourselves and at least 2 AI, you can bet that Knights are coming very soon. We need to have a number of Horsemen ready to upgrade. Any city with a Barracks that's building a Legionaire, should switch to Horsemen. Build the Treasury for these future upgrades (using it when needed to upgrade the Regular Warriors). Any city without a Barracks (Hispalis and Ravenna) should build Catapults, or a Barracks; we will need Vet units (Horses/Knights) for our attacks.
The enemy has been pouring through the mountains to our North. I see two ways to go about this 1.) defend in our cities, 2 or 3 Legions each in Virconium, Pompeii and Hispalis, with Cats, and mobile Cats and Legions to shift defenses as necessary (PROS, uses our Walls and interior mobility, CONS, not very aggressive, possibility of being Overwhelmed at one or more of the spots; 2.) Take out Rouen, and establish a solid row of Legions across the Mountains (PROS, more aggressive, gains ground, forces enemy to attack us in Best defensive positions or go around where they are more vulnerable and safeguards our Northern cities CONS, lack of Roads means little Cat support, lack of mobility, would tie up 5-6 Legions in Picket duty)
I'd say I'm more in favor of 2, but I'd be very happy to hear arguments or other suggestions.
England is in the war now (and Germany too!). Trashing Dover has to be a priority; probably need 3 Legions minimum to do that, and all at once, not staggered. Liverpool has to go soon too; otherwise we will be hip deep in English WITH this city still in play. And we're pretty vulnerable to an attack from the Brighton area; in fact, there's one spot on a hill that if it had a Horseman on it right now could capture two of our Workers! I'd like to add Brighton to the Hit list, and get us at least a couple Warriors on the Hill Ridge to our NW looking out to see if anything is coming our way (a city with a couple Legions would be even better.)
That's my thoughts for now.
Maybe we should suggest it to Firaxis!! Unfortunately, the only cease-fire we'll get is when every extra Babylonian unit is toast.)I've had a chance to review the save file. I'd say the Walls have paid for themselves!
It looks like the Bombard Athens plan has failed; if we can't bombard Athens down a bunch of hitpoints, then we'll either have to chance a Legion Rush, or leave them for units with more power (Knights). If we decide to leave them for now, we should send a few Legions out on pillaging duty to harass Greece as much as possible.
There's a lot of things we need; we're currently paying 24 gpt for our units, so we need more cities, desperately. I'd suggest that Antium, which is using two Grassland tiles with no shields being generated, switch those to the two forests it has access to and finish HE quickly. Then have it spit out a couple of Settlers. We also need more Workers; perhaps Pisae, which is finishing a Barracks, should build either a Settler/Worker or Catapult/Worker. We have many tiles to still improve and we'll never control the Mountains to our North without roads for our Catapults to travel along. Lutetia should build Workers; with access to a Cow but only generating 1 Shield, this would be a good use for it.
We are up to 29 Legions, with 10 more Warriors to upgrade (although these seem to be all Regular Warriors). I'd propose that we not build any Legions, instead build Horsemen. With Mono being known now, by ourselves and at least 2 AI, you can bet that Knights are coming very soon. We need to have a number of Horsemen ready to upgrade. Any city with a Barracks that's building a Legionaire, should switch to Horsemen. Build the Treasury for these future upgrades (using it when needed to upgrade the Regular Warriors). Any city without a Barracks (Hispalis and Ravenna) should build Catapults, or a Barracks; we will need Vet units (Horses/Knights) for our attacks.
The enemy has been pouring through the mountains to our North. I see two ways to go about this 1.) defend in our cities, 2 or 3 Legions each in Virconium, Pompeii and Hispalis, with Cats, and mobile Cats and Legions to shift defenses as necessary (PROS, uses our Walls and interior mobility, CONS, not very aggressive, possibility of being Overwhelmed at one or more of the spots; 2.) Take out Rouen, and establish a solid row of Legions across the Mountains (PROS, more aggressive, gains ground, forces enemy to attack us in Best defensive positions or go around where they are more vulnerable and safeguards our Northern cities CONS, lack of Roads means little Cat support, lack of mobility, would tie up 5-6 Legions in Picket duty)
I'd say I'm more in favor of 2, but I'd be very happy to hear arguments or other suggestions.
England is in the war now (and Germany too!). Trashing Dover has to be a priority; probably need 3 Legions minimum to do that, and all at once, not staggered. Liverpool has to go soon too; otherwise we will be hip deep in English WITH this city still in play. And we're pretty vulnerable to an attack from the Brighton area; in fact, there's one spot on a hill that if it had a Horseman on it right now could capture two of our Workers! I'd like to add Brighton to the Hit list, and get us at least a couple Warriors on the Hill Ridge to our NW looking out to see if anything is coming our way (a city with a couple Legions would be even better.)
That's my thoughts for now.
Peglegasus
Warlord
I've never had a game where I had to fight on multiple fronts like this. Usually in this situation I would simply make peace with the more isolated civ (the Greeks in this case) so I could concentrate on the tougher opponents. I found it really difficult trying to make sure I had sufficient defenses AND offensive capability at the same time. I think I emphasized defense a little too much... except of course Lugdunum. I was really disappointed with myself for that loss 
. If only it had been size 2. I could have gotten it back on the next turn. Backup was one tile away after stepping out of Greek territory.
After my frustrating turns on Athens' doorstep I've thought of postponing the Greek assault too. I think there are two sources of iron down there... if we can keep Greece from getting to them we may be able to keep them under control for the time being. Plant a legion on each iron deposit, build cities down there wherever we can, and leave some legions down there to cut roads. As long as Athens has no road connection to a harbor they can't trade with the other civs, right? So the worst they will be able to throw at us will be archers and then longbows. The civs to our north are a much bigger threat right now.
Trying to block all those units in the mountains took a lot of units away from better things. Eventually I moved almost all of them out of the mountains and up around Viroconium to send them out on the offensive. There are still quite a few bowmen in the mountains out of visual range. Probably moving east and then will come back south but who knows. I say let them come and throw themselves at our defenders. By the way, not a single legionary on a mountain tile was attacked by anything. Not even swords.
Very soon we will be seeing a lot more swordsmen coming. The pillaging Legion up north has seen a couple Babylonian swords even, and has been attacked by french and russian swords. I'm curious to see what they will do. Will they be like the bowmen and go for the non-walled cities like the bowmen did? If they do, we can choose where to do battle in some instances.
Steve you have a good point about the north west cities and the English towns just beyond. I was looking at that as I finished my turns. Our towns out there just have one warrior each. With the forces we have massed at Viroconium I think we should move west and crush those two English towns. At that point they should be able to see what may be coming south through there. Hopefully they don't have anything about to knock on our side door there because we aren't prepared for that.
. If only it had been size 2. I could have gotten it back on the next turn. Backup was one tile away after stepping out of Greek territory.After my frustrating turns on Athens' doorstep I've thought of postponing the Greek assault too. I think there are two sources of iron down there... if we can keep Greece from getting to them we may be able to keep them under control for the time being. Plant a legion on each iron deposit, build cities down there wherever we can, and leave some legions down there to cut roads. As long as Athens has no road connection to a harbor they can't trade with the other civs, right? So the worst they will be able to throw at us will be archers and then longbows. The civs to our north are a much bigger threat right now.
Trying to block all those units in the mountains took a lot of units away from better things. Eventually I moved almost all of them out of the mountains and up around Viroconium to send them out on the offensive. There are still quite a few bowmen in the mountains out of visual range. Probably moving east and then will come back south but who knows. I say let them come and throw themselves at our defenders. By the way, not a single legionary on a mountain tile was attacked by anything. Not even swords.
Very soon we will be seeing a lot more swordsmen coming. The pillaging Legion up north has seen a couple Babylonian swords even, and has been attacked by french and russian swords. I'm curious to see what they will do. Will they be like the bowmen and go for the non-walled cities like the bowmen did? If they do, we can choose where to do battle in some instances.
Steve you have a good point about the north west cities and the English towns just beyond. I was looking at that as I finished my turns. Our towns out there just have one warrior each. With the forces we have massed at Viroconium I think we should move west and crush those two English towns. At that point they should be able to see what may be coming south through there. Hopefully they don't have anything about to knock on our side door there because we aren't prepared for that.
Yeah, I think we've just about reached the point where Legions will not allow us to push up, just hold our own until we can get Knights.
As far as the mountains to the North go, if we don't have a solid line across them, the AI will go through the gaps and head towards our towns. So there's little point to have a Legion here and there in the Mountains; we should commit to one or the other options I spelled out. I do prefer the 2nd; we have to use our Army intelligently, and our Legions; the army by itself could hold Virconium, inflicting losses on units going by (but don't actually capture that last unit in a stack!, we'd want the army to maintain its defensive position); this would allow the Legions to defend our other cities, and push the line back when opportunity presents. Minimize our losses, and maximize the AI's. Attack when we have good odds; defend otherwise, block them in good terrain, funnel them into death traps. And AI units in the open will definitely lose hitpoints to our Catapults. Use any Regular Legions for Defense; hopefully they will get upgraded; use Vet or Elite Legions for offense, when desired. Eventually we should be able to establish the picket line, and take Rouen.
As far as the mountains to the North go, if we don't have a solid line across them, the AI will go through the gaps and head towards our towns. So there's little point to have a Legion here and there in the Mountains; we should commit to one or the other options I spelled out. I do prefer the 2nd; we have to use our Army intelligently, and our Legions; the army by itself could hold Virconium, inflicting losses on units going by (but don't actually capture that last unit in a stack!, we'd want the army to maintain its defensive position); this would allow the Legions to defend our other cities, and push the line back when opportunity presents. Minimize our losses, and maximize the AI's. Attack when we have good odds; defend otherwise, block them in good terrain, funnel them into death traps. And AI units in the open will definitely lose hitpoints to our Catapults. Use any Regular Legions for Defense; hopefully they will get upgraded; use Vet or Elite Legions for offense, when desired. Eventually we should be able to establish the picket line, and take Rouen.
Turn 0 - 150 BC - Moved some units to protect workers & border towns. Moved another unit to Rome. Dropped Lux slider to 0. Swapped some citizens around in Pompeii & Rome. Moved citizen workers in Antium for no growth and HE in 13 turns. Changed some productions to barracks & horses. Changed Lutetia to worker. Traded Abe construction for WM & 6 gold.
Turn 1 - 130 BC - All 7 cats fail in bombardment of Athens. I will try again on next turn, then give up. Moved NW cat stack to iron hill next to Liverpool. Babylon now hs 6 bowmen, 2 warriors, 1 spear, and one settler between Rouen & Hispalis. Elite Legion attacks spear in Dover and wins. Another Legion moves next to dover.
Turn 2 - 110 BC - Babylon settles Lagash next to the former site of Lugdunum. We destroy Lagash. 2 Cat hits out of 7 agains Athens. They have at least 3 hoplites there, probably more. Start withdrawal from Athens area to head back and defend what we have. Our legion near Paris is killed by a swordsman. 21 foreign units are next to, or one turn from being next to, our towns.
Turn 3 - 90 BC - Elite Spear in Ravenna defends against bowman and produces a leader.
I have stopped here for input on what to do with the leader, and what to do about our whole situation. We can use the leader to rush Sun Tzu's, rush the Hero Epic which is due in 10 turns, or build another army. We are being swarmed by foreign units. I think we need to pull back and defend until the waves of foreign units dwindles down quite a bit. We are in a dire situation, and it's going to be tough to just hold on. I really haven't even started playing the turn yet. I made a couple of moves. Here is the save, if anyone wants to look:
Turn 1 - 130 BC - All 7 cats fail in bombardment of Athens. I will try again on next turn, then give up. Moved NW cat stack to iron hill next to Liverpool. Babylon now hs 6 bowmen, 2 warriors, 1 spear, and one settler between Rouen & Hispalis. Elite Legion attacks spear in Dover and wins. Another Legion moves next to dover.
Turn 2 - 110 BC - Babylon settles Lagash next to the former site of Lugdunum. We destroy Lagash. 2 Cat hits out of 7 agains Athens. They have at least 3 hoplites there, probably more. Start withdrawal from Athens area to head back and defend what we have. Our legion near Paris is killed by a swordsman. 21 foreign units are next to, or one turn from being next to, our towns.
Turn 3 - 90 BC - Elite Spear in Ravenna defends against bowman and produces a leader.
I have stopped here for input on what to do with the leader, and what to do about our whole situation. We can use the leader to rush Sun Tzu's, rush the Hero Epic which is due in 10 turns, or build another army. We are being swarmed by foreign units. I think we need to pull back and defend until the waves of foreign units dwindles down quite a bit. We are in a dire situation, and it's going to be tough to just hold on. I really haven't even started playing the turn yet. I made a couple of moves. Here is the save, if anyone wants to look:
Peglegasus
Warlord
This is what the majority of my turns were like so I know how you feel 
I know it looks ugly but we have a couple things going for us. The walled cities are forcing Babylon to focus their attacks in predictable places. I've never used walls like this before (usually only in 1 or 2 key positions) so I really don't know what effect if any it will have on swordsmen and their targeting choices.
I am so pleased that spearman generated a leader! He has been working really hard the last few turns.
I would suggest putting one more unit in Ravenna to defend. I would expect that after losing 2 or 3 bowmen in their attack the last couple Babylonians will retreat or fortify in place. One of the other things we have going for us is that the different civs units are not working together. Good thing that civs with alliances can't stack units.
Something that I saw a couple times was when archers and bowmen crossed the river and I didn't have enough units to take them down without a lot of risk, if I could wound them with catapults they would cross back over the river to heal. I think swordsmen might still try to move in to our territory but it worked well with the archers.
I vote for Sun Tzu's with the leader, for a couple of reasons. We don't have all that much income and getting free barracks will give us 16gpt or something like that. Also it will deprive one of the other civs of a useful wonder. AND no one has invention yet so by swiping Sun Tzu's they have no chance for a pre-build for Leonardo's, which we also might think about in the future.
I know it looks ugly but we have a couple things going for us. The walled cities are forcing Babylon to focus their attacks in predictable places. I've never used walls like this before (usually only in 1 or 2 key positions) so I really don't know what effect if any it will have on swordsmen and their targeting choices. I am so pleased that spearman generated a leader! He has been working really hard the last few turns.
I would suggest putting one more unit in Ravenna to defend. I would expect that after losing 2 or 3 bowmen in their attack the last couple Babylonians will retreat or fortify in place. One of the other things we have going for us is that the different civs units are not working together. Good thing that civs with alliances can't stack units.
Something that I saw a couple times was when archers and bowmen crossed the river and I didn't have enough units to take them down without a lot of risk, if I could wound them with catapults they would cross back over the river to heal. I think swordsmen might still try to move in to our territory but it worked well with the archers.
I vote for Sun Tzu's with the leader, for a couple of reasons. We don't have all that much income and getting free barracks will give us 16gpt or something like that. Also it will deprive one of the other civs of a useful wonder. AND no one has invention yet so by swiping Sun Tzu's they have no chance for a pre-build for Leonardo's, which we also might think about in the future.
It looks like Babylon and Russia are just getting their forces to us about the same time that France is getting up to speed, so we have a real big wave of units right now. Hopefully we will put this wave down before England and Germany show up!!
Our border towns should have at least 2 defenders in them; the Legion in Rome looks like he'd like to help out Ravenna
Yay, another GL! This time I think SunTzu's is the thing to get, especially since some cities are building Barracks right now. (I like taking the pre-build for Leo's away, too.) I would suggest building it in Virconium or Veii!! If we can get some culture being generated in our front towns, we will gain more Territory to control, and get earlier warning of what's coming our way. Virconium is a critical crossroads, which we have to keep anyway or we are toast, so I'd suggest building it there. (Next Wonder in Veii; let Antium finish their handbuild of HE.)
Our border towns should have at least 2 defenders in them; the Legion in Rome looks like he'd like to help out Ravenna
Yay, another GL! This time I think SunTzu's is the thing to get, especially since some cities are building Barracks right now. (I like taking the pre-build for Leo's away, too.) I would suggest building it in Virconium or Veii!! If we can get some culture being generated in our front towns, we will gain more Territory to control, and get earlier warning of what's coming our way. Virconium is a critical crossroads, which we have to keep anyway or we are toast, so I'd suggest building it there. (Next Wonder in Veii; let Antium finish their handbuild of HE.)
Turn 3 - 90 BC - (Cont.) - One French sword killed and one redlined attacking Viroconium. Russian sword moved south of Hispalis. He was bombarded then killed by our horseman. Killed an English archer near Liverpool.
Turn 4 - 70 BC - Leader Rushes SunTzu's in Viroconium. Four Babalonian bowmen killed attacking Ravenna. Russian settler pair killed near Ravenna. Babalonian bowman killed next to Viro. English warrior killed near Veii. Elite Legion dies trying to kill spear on our wheat tile next to Ravenna. Follow up horse finishes the spearman.
Turn 5 - 50 BC - Sun Tzu's built. English archer attacks Byzantium & is killed. French & Babalonian settler pairs killed near Sevastapol. Babalon bowman killed near Viroconium.
Turn 6 - 30 BC - Four Babalon units in our territory killed.
Turn 7 - 10 BC - Elite legion defending in Viroconium produces leader. Rushed Hero Epic. Founded Brundisium.
Turn 8 - 10 AD - More foreign units killed.
Turn 9 - 30 AD - Dead foreigners are starting to smell up the place.
Turn 10 - 50 AD - Rushed mass burial pit to deal with all the dead foreigners.
I didn't make any headway with moving forward or pillaging, but I was able to defend everything and even expand some. We can probably start to make a move forward in the next set of turns. I probably killed around 40 units during my set of turns, and lost only 5 or 6 units. We have a settler in Rome ready to head to a new home next turn. The english are the big threat now. The others are just sending units one or 2 at a time. The last turn was the first time I have seen a German unit, and it is a settler pair. Bismark and Abe are still behind in tech, and I don't think either poses a threat. The english are starting to come strong from the Liverpool area. They are also sending an archer from Dover every couple of turns. I was concerned early in my set, as to whether we would even be able to hold on with the onslaught, but we have managed to gain a couple of units and cities during the turns, and all units have been upgraded.
Here is the Save.
Turn 4 - 70 BC - Leader Rushes SunTzu's in Viroconium. Four Babalonian bowmen killed attacking Ravenna. Russian settler pair killed near Ravenna. Babalonian bowman killed next to Viro. English warrior killed near Veii. Elite Legion dies trying to kill spear on our wheat tile next to Ravenna. Follow up horse finishes the spearman.
Turn 5 - 50 BC - Sun Tzu's built. English archer attacks Byzantium & is killed. French & Babalonian settler pairs killed near Sevastapol. Babalon bowman killed near Viroconium.
Turn 6 - 30 BC - Four Babalon units in our territory killed.
Turn 7 - 10 BC - Elite legion defending in Viroconium produces leader. Rushed Hero Epic. Founded Brundisium.
Turn 8 - 10 AD - More foreign units killed.
Turn 9 - 30 AD - Dead foreigners are starting to smell up the place.
Turn 10 - 50 AD - Rushed mass burial pit to deal with all the dead foreigners.
I didn't make any headway with moving forward or pillaging, but I was able to defend everything and even expand some. We can probably start to make a move forward in the next set of turns. I probably killed around 40 units during my set of turns, and lost only 5 or 6 units. We have a settler in Rome ready to head to a new home next turn. The english are the big threat now. The others are just sending units one or 2 at a time. The last turn was the first time I have seen a German unit, and it is a settler pair. Bismark and Abe are still behind in tech, and I don't think either poses a threat. The english are starting to come strong from the Liverpool area. They are also sending an archer from Dover every couple of turns. I was concerned early in my set, as to whether we would even be able to hold on with the onslaught, but we have managed to gain a couple of units and cities during the turns, and all units have been upgraded.
Here is the Save.
Peglegasus
Warlord
Good job, mate. I was hoping our defenses would hold . Hopefully when the swords come they won't be in the quntities those Bab bowmen were in! Those bowmen mini stacks were intimidating at first but seemed rather easy to kill.
I'm interested to see what governments the civs will choose. I think 3 of them were in Republic but I see England is in anarchy at the moment. Going to monarchy you think? When should we consider switching?
. Hopefully when the swords come they won't be in the quntities those Bab bowmen were in! Those bowmen mini stacks were intimidating at first but seemed rather easy to kill. I'm interested to see what governments the civs will choose. I think 3 of them were in Republic but I see England is in anarchy at the moment. Going to monarchy you think? When should we consider switching?
Peglegasus
Warlord
Unrelated to our game: How do you make the link to the save appear like this "The Save" instead of mine which is always just "http://blah/blah.blah"?
Peglegasus: when you make the link, using the 'Insert Hyperlink' button (world with a chain link below it), it give you the option to enter the text to show first, so type in 'My Save' or whatever, press enter, then paste in the shortcut. That's how you get personalized text to represent the link.
Wow, what a lot of action. The piles of the dead bodies must be a terrifying sight to see for any new AI units approaching us!! Good job, bigchief!!
I'll say I've got it, but I wont be able to load it until tonight. Since we are already at war with Germany, I don't believe we have to do any declarations until the original scheduled DoW against America. (In other words, if a civ declares on us, we don't have to move the rest of our timetable up.)
If I were to get any GL's (not likely with my luck), should I form Armies with them, or hold it for Leo's?
Wow, what a lot of action. The piles of the dead bodies must be a terrifying sight to see for any new AI units approaching us!! Good job, bigchief!!
I'll say I've got it, but I wont be able to load it until tonight. Since we are already at war with Germany, I don't believe we have to do any declarations until the original scheduled DoW against America. (In other words, if a civ declares on us, we don't have to move the rest of our timetable up.)
If I were to get any GL's (not likely with my luck), should I form Armies with them, or hold it for Leo's?
I wouldn't hold the leaders. I certainly want to get Leo's, but nobody is building it, or has any other prebuilds or wonders going. We should be able to get plenty of leaders as we go. I would think it would be a minimum of 30 turns before anyone else can build it (unless they get a leader).
We may want to use the next one for the Forbidden Palace.
We may want to use the next one for the Forbidden Palace.
Good point! With HE in place, and lots of upgraded units due to all the successful warfare going on, we should be able to generate lots of GLs (even me!). Use them as we go along. FP is a good idea to; we may want to be able to move our capital in the future, so we'll want the FP near the core.
Keith Larson
A Wild Boar
Good set of turns Bigchief! I agree that we should never hold leaders. At the rate of combat we are experiencing we should generate a leader every ten turns or so.
I have been thinking about the last several turn sets and I think we really hurt ourselves by trying to take Athens. Unlike normal games the only thing we gain by attacking enemy cities is 1) a future sight for one of our cities 2) weaken the AI. We cant capture cities. By allowing ourselves to siege Athens for over ten turns the AI was actually weakening us!
For the balance of the variant I think we need to follow the Honest Abe plan. Think of the AI is the forest, our settlers as the seed and our military units as the Axe. We cut down trees not for the purpose of taking over the forest (we cant eat wood), but to plant our crops (cities). The most important unit we are producing is our settlers, they are the whole reason the Axe exists. The Axe is used first and foremost to protect our current crops from the encroaching forest (no more lost cities). Then the Axe is used to widen our clearing to make room for more crops (Thus AI cities that are closest to our crops get chopped first. Just think of all the trees we could have cut down with those 5 legions and 6 cats!) When and only when our Axe can accomplish these first two goals do we need to worry about chopping to extinction certain varieties of trees (we dont want biodiversity, ours will be a monoculture farm!). When we march into the heart of forest to cut down the mother trees, we need to do so with overwhelming force (SOD. No more Athens). Of course, there are other ways of killing the Indians in the forest than by direct assault. We can send them fire water and small pox infested blankets (pillaging Armies) until they are so drunk and sick they cant defend the forest any longer. Until we have seed (settlers) we dont really need to worry about making the clearing too large, because the forest always has lots of seeds (settlers) and they will plant new trees in the clearing anyway. As we cut the forest down we will gain fire wood (Great Leaders) which will help us grow our farm ever larger.
As long as we can keep on planting new cities and protect them the AI cant win. We dont need any blitzkriegs, just a sharp axe and plenty of seed!
I hope all this makes sense. Just picture yourself as a homesteader facing the virgin forests of North America and I think you will get the idea.
I have been thinking about the last several turn sets and I think we really hurt ourselves by trying to take Athens. Unlike normal games the only thing we gain by attacking enemy cities is 1) a future sight for one of our cities 2) weaken the AI. We cant capture cities. By allowing ourselves to siege Athens for over ten turns the AI was actually weakening us!
For the balance of the variant I think we need to follow the Honest Abe plan. Think of the AI is the forest, our settlers as the seed and our military units as the Axe. We cut down trees not for the purpose of taking over the forest (we cant eat wood), but to plant our crops (cities). The most important unit we are producing is our settlers, they are the whole reason the Axe exists. The Axe is used first and foremost to protect our current crops from the encroaching forest (no more lost cities). Then the Axe is used to widen our clearing to make room for more crops (Thus AI cities that are closest to our crops get chopped first. Just think of all the trees we could have cut down with those 5 legions and 6 cats!) When and only when our Axe can accomplish these first two goals do we need to worry about chopping to extinction certain varieties of trees (we dont want biodiversity, ours will be a monoculture farm!). When we march into the heart of forest to cut down the mother trees, we need to do so with overwhelming force (SOD. No more Athens). Of course, there are other ways of killing the Indians in the forest than by direct assault. We can send them fire water and small pox infested blankets (pillaging Armies) until they are so drunk and sick they cant defend the forest any longer. Until we have seed (settlers) we dont really need to worry about making the clearing too large, because the forest always has lots of seeds (settlers) and they will plant new trees in the clearing anyway. As we cut the forest down we will gain fire wood (Great Leaders) which will help us grow our farm ever larger.
As long as we can keep on planting new cities and protect them the AI cant win. We dont need any blitzkriegs, just a sharp axe and plenty of seed!
I hope all this makes sense. Just picture yourself as a homesteader facing the virgin forests of North America and I think you will get the idea.
That's a pretty good analogy, Keith. If that's so, then the other teams have been doing a better job of planting more trees - our score has been falling in relation to the other teams, and the biggest part of that is happy people, which you first need people for, and then to make them happy. (They might have taken out Greece, and connected their Luxuries, too; we do have the Hanging Gardens.)
It seems like the wave of recent AI attacks has been pretty fierce; I wouldn't have wanted to have any fewer units than we have. Our Greece plan may have definitely hurt us; we didn't take them out and tied up a lot of units in the meantime. I guess we'll have to make up some ground.
Any thoughts as to when we should revolt, if we should? Until we get several cities at size 7 or higher, we will lose a lot of unit support when we do switch over. And Monarchy does not add commerce, so we'd gain some Food and reduced Corruption/Waste; that would be it.
It seems like the wave of recent AI attacks has been pretty fierce; I wouldn't have wanted to have any fewer units than we have. Our Greece plan may have definitely hurt us; we didn't take them out and tied up a lot of units in the meantime. I guess we'll have to make up some ground.
Any thoughts as to when we should revolt, if we should? Until we get several cities at size 7 or higher, we will lose a lot of unit support when we do switch over. And Monarchy does not add commerce, so we'd gain some Food and reduced Corruption/Waste; that would be it.
I also agree that we wasted time with Athens, and that's why I pulled out. I wasn't sure that pulling out would be very popular with the team, but it was the only move that made sense to me. I wasn't sure we had enough units there to take it, and we were being swarmed in our own territory. We couldn't afford to send more units that way, and the guys at home needed help. It's just a shame that the cats are so crappy. I never build them in my own games for that reason. But, it would have been great to get that incense. We really need another luxury or 2.
I think we should just concentrate on defending and building up until we can get Knights. Right now we are low on money, but everyone has been upgraded, and we can start saving from here. We are gaining about 50 GPT now, so we should be able to have a pretty strong Knight force when we get Chivalry.
The way they are coming at us, I don't think we can stop and build markets, temples or other improvements, until we are more in the driver's seat in this thing.
We are going to have to stay in Despotism for a while longer. We may be able to afford to switch after we get Chivalry and upgrade our horses. By then, we probably will have settled a few more towns. It's too bad we're not playing C3C. Feudalism would be a perfect government for us now. We are currently only loosing 15 GPT to corruption. Even with switching to Monarchy and building the FP, we would probably only lower that by 5 or 6 GPT. We are spending 18 GPT on units, and we still need more military units and workers. If we switched right now, it would cost us 22 GPT more in unit support.
If we switched, we will get another unit for MP duties, but the way things are going, we can't count on having 3 units sitting around in a town. The ammount of unit shuffling I had to do during my turns was amazing. I have been in Modern Age wars, owning a whole continent, and didn't have to make as many unit moves per turn as I did during that last set. It was like ship chaining - OK this uint can make it to there, which will allow that unit to move there, and then the other unit can kill the spear standing on our road.
I think we should just concentrate on defending and building up until we can get Knights. Right now we are low on money, but everyone has been upgraded, and we can start saving from here. We are gaining about 50 GPT now, so we should be able to have a pretty strong Knight force when we get Chivalry.
The way they are coming at us, I don't think we can stop and build markets, temples or other improvements, until we are more in the driver's seat in this thing.
We are going to have to stay in Despotism for a while longer. We may be able to afford to switch after we get Chivalry and upgrade our horses. By then, we probably will have settled a few more towns. It's too bad we're not playing C3C. Feudalism would be a perfect government for us now. We are currently only loosing 15 GPT to corruption. Even with switching to Monarchy and building the FP, we would probably only lower that by 5 or 6 GPT. We are spending 18 GPT on units, and we still need more military units and workers. If we switched right now, it would cost us 22 GPT more in unit support.
If we switched, we will get another unit for MP duties, but the way things are going, we can't count on having 3 units sitting around in a town. The ammount of unit shuffling I had to do during my turns was amazing. I have been in Modern Age wars, owning a whole continent, and didn't have to make as many unit moves per turn as I did during that last set. It was like ship chaining - OK this uint can make it to there, which will allow that unit to move there, and then the other unit can kill the spear standing on our road.
Keith Larson
A Wild Boar
I agree now is not to time to switch. Corruption will not be lowered that much and we will lose lots of unit support. As long as we are expanding we are doing OK. We will get those luxuries.
Good point about Feudalism. There is so much I like about 3C3 and so much I hate. If we were playing 3C3 we would have been able to rush all those wonders. At the rate we will be generating them, we should get about every wonder. I would like to see in Civ 4 many more ways to generate GLs (religious acheivements, expansion, diplomatic, ect.) but all leaders would be able to rush improvements, but each would have a specialized option: Military=army, Religious=Religious Golden Age, ect.
Good point about Feudalism. There is so much I like about 3C3 and so much I hate. If we were playing 3C3 we would have been able to rush all those wonders. At the rate we will be generating them, we should get about every wonder. I would like to see in Civ 4 many more ways to generate GLs (religious acheivements, expansion, diplomatic, ect.) but all leaders would be able to rush improvements, but each would have a specialized option: Military=army, Religious=Religious Golden Age, ect.
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