SGOTM3 Rome - Team Smackster
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
smackster
SGOTM
So I got into thinking right, always leads to problems, but there I was, thinking about reputation, and more specifically the reputation of a Xenophobe. On the face of it you would think that we'd pretty quickly get the reputation of a war monger in this game, but reputation doesn't work like that in civ.
First off, all this waring, razing, abandoning of cities, does not effect reputation. We may well get some way into the game, with our reputation intact (the general AI attitude will clearly get very bad, very quickly, but that only slightly effects the price of things). It can be an advantage to keep it intact as long as we can.
In the early game, when we meet our first AI, they may well have a tech we require. When we ask them how much they want, it could be that they offer it for GPT. Clearly at if we take that, then we'll break our GPT rep as we have to declare war straight away. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying be aware that will break it and reputation does not recover.
Later in the game, we may well meet Civ X and Y on the same turn. Trade with Civ X, and then declare war. Now we would have 20 turns, before we have to declare on Civ Y, and we could trade failrly in that time, so trade everything we have. Then at the end of that deal, we declare war. Doing it without breaking our rep, means we might be able to do it again with the Civ Z.
In this situation same goes for alliances, it will help us if everyone is not just fighting us, I would like them to fight each other. So first chance we get like this, then sign an alliance against as many other civs as we can. Alliance rep is not affected by GPT rep, but GPT rep is affected by alliance rep. So again if we do it carefully we can do it more than once.
Finally (yes there is an end to my rambling) our ROP rep (ROP rep is related to both Alliance and GPT rep, ROP rep is the grand daddy, break it and you break all three, but neither Alliance or GPT rep affects ROP rep, got it
) may be broken and there may be nothing we can do about it if we wander too much. If I move next turn our warrior and find myself in the Bablyon borders, that is it, I have to declare war and we break our ROP rep and all other reputations in one go. As we are not exactly going to be charging around for now, we probably wont hit this for now at least.
I'm writing an article on reputation, so some of the above is based on my research.
smackster
First off, all this waring, razing, abandoning of cities, does not effect reputation. We may well get some way into the game, with our reputation intact (the general AI attitude will clearly get very bad, very quickly, but that only slightly effects the price of things). It can be an advantage to keep it intact as long as we can.
In the early game, when we meet our first AI, they may well have a tech we require. When we ask them how much they want, it could be that they offer it for GPT. Clearly at if we take that, then we'll break our GPT rep as we have to declare war straight away. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying be aware that will break it and reputation does not recover.
Later in the game, we may well meet Civ X and Y on the same turn. Trade with Civ X, and then declare war. Now we would have 20 turns, before we have to declare on Civ Y, and we could trade failrly in that time, so trade everything we have. Then at the end of that deal, we declare war. Doing it without breaking our rep, means we might be able to do it again with the Civ Z.
In this situation same goes for alliances, it will help us if everyone is not just fighting us, I would like them to fight each other. So first chance we get like this, then sign an alliance against as many other civs as we can. Alliance rep is not affected by GPT rep, but GPT rep is affected by alliance rep. So again if we do it carefully we can do it more than once.
Finally (yes there is an end to my rambling) our ROP rep (ROP rep is related to both Alliance and GPT rep, ROP rep is the grand daddy, break it and you break all three, but neither Alliance or GPT rep affects ROP rep, got it
) may be broken and there may be nothing we can do about it if we wander too much. If I move next turn our warrior and find myself in the Bablyon borders, that is it, I have to declare war and we break our ROP rep and all other reputations in one go. As we are not exactly going to be charging around for now, we probably wont hit this for now at least.I'm writing an article on reputation, so some of the above is based on my research.
smackster
smackster
SGOTM
That first settler will be out before the end of my turn, so I may pause to consult on his position if its not obvious, depends what else we see.
Congratulations to the team with starting the game!!!
Few ideas I have...
1. I think Smackster has a pretty good start, I am sure Tarkeel will keep improving the situation
2. Can we in future have a log of every single turn players do, even when they do nothing, just put nothing. It will help everybody else to track and understand the game better and follow the turns.
3. About the city placements, we need to discuss this further RCP3 is fine, I looked at Wotan's proposal... it's okay with exeption of city that is placed on BG on north-east. We could move it one tile right.
4 Generally, in this game i think is important to place cities on top of the hil for better defence ratio. I almost sure we will get attacked and hills will help a lot to defend. We have lots of hills around so we can rework city placement to put each one on top of the hill and be defendent by rivers.. This will give us very big defensive bonus... Please raise your opinions on this one.
5. I think if we explore south we will find some flood-plains for settler factory.. I have a feeling i can see flood-plains to the left from the south-most hill. I may be wrong but we shall expore this option. Placing a city next to the food plains on the north will probably be too far from the capital for such a game.
Tarkeel!!!! Good luck!!!
Few ideas I have...
1. I think Smackster has a pretty good start, I am sure Tarkeel will keep improving the situation
2. Can we in future have a log of every single turn players do, even when they do nothing, just put nothing. It will help everybody else to track and understand the game better and follow the turns.
3. About the city placements, we need to discuss this further RCP3 is fine, I looked at Wotan's proposal... it's okay with exeption of city that is placed on BG on north-east. We could move it one tile right.
4 Generally, in this game i think is important to place cities on top of the hil for better defence ratio. I almost sure we will get attacked and hills will help a lot to defend. We have lots of hills around so we can rework city placement to put each one on top of the hill and be defendent by rivers.. This will give us very big defensive bonus... Please raise your opinions on this one.
5. I think if we explore south we will find some flood-plains for settler factory.. I have a feeling i can see flood-plains to the left from the south-most hill. I may be wrong but we shall expore this option. Placing a city next to the food plains on the north will probably be too far from the capital for such a game.
Tarkeel!!!! Good luck!!!
smackster
SGOTM
BTW its 20 turns for the first player, so I'm still going.
I agree about doing per turn reports, although these first 10 are the hardest Actually I wanted to get it going and was short of time, so didn't even have time to copy and paste the dates for every turn.
I think you just need to be next to the hill/mountain to get the bonus, right? It will certainly be easier to place cities when I reveal more of the map.
I'm off home now, and planning to finish tonight, as soon as I get back.
Smackster
I agree about doing per turn reports, although these first 10 are the hardest
Actually I wanted to get it going and was short of time, so didn't even have time to copy and paste the dates for every turn.I think you just need to be next to the hill/mountain to get the bonus, right? It will certainly be easier to place cities when I reveal more of the map.
I'm off home now, and planning to finish tonight, as soon as I get back.
Smackster
smackster said:
Yep, sorry about that... But still I thought I should wish Tarkeel a good luck since he is in Europe and probably will play while we sleep here in US tonight
Nope, I am pretty sure you have to be on top of hill/mountain to get defensive bonus.Mountains really only apply to units since we can build cities on top of them.smackster said:
You have to settle ON the hill to get the extra 50% bonus. Ofcourse, being on the right side of the river gives another 50% (IIRC) bonus.
I don't think we want to settle all7 available spots in ring 1.. 5 or so should do it. I'm no fan of hypercramped cities
I don't think we want to settle all7 available spots in ring 1.. 5 or so should do it. I'm no fan of hypercramped cities
smackster
SGOTM
That's funny, guess its been a while since I positioned cities for defence
smackster
SGOTM
Here is a tech choice, what do we think Writing, or Bronze Working. Now normally we would obviously not go for BW, but in this game, might it be worth it, we might need it not be able to trade for it. Currently its 40 turns to Writing anyway.
I'll hold the game for a bit at 3250 to get some feedback.
smackster
I'll hold the game for a bit at 3250 to get some feedback.
smackster
It is a tough decision. we are very limited with what we can do by trading...
At this point i doubt we should be trying to research phylosophy, AI will beat us, there are too many civilizations on this map and they will trade like crazy..
I am still convinced we should try to build GL. This is really not a normal game and I am afraid that no matter what our decision is it will be a wrong one
.
May be at this point BW would be the way to go then IW, and if we build leggionairs, 1st win will send us to GA, here would be a nice timing to build GL.
I doubt we will be able to wait until we get out of despotism for GA it will happen much earlier with our UU.
I also suggest to keep at least 3 units in each of our border city for defence in the beggining of the game. is it a good idea?
At this point i doubt we should be trying to research phylosophy, AI will beat us, there are too many civilizations on this map and they will trade like crazy..
I am still convinced we should try to build GL. This is really not a normal game and I am afraid that no matter what our decision is it will be a wrong one
.May be at this point BW would be the way to go then IW, and if we build leggionairs, 1st win will send us to GA, here would be a nice timing to build GL.
I doubt we will be able to wait until we get out of despotism for GA it will happen much earlier with our UU.
I also suggest to keep at least 3 units in each of our border city for defence in the beggining of the game. is it a good idea?
smackster
SGOTM
I think maybe the BW/IW route is the best thing to do right now, iron hook-up, legion rush. That GA boost should help to get the space to develop. Certainly we should build as many warriors as we can ready for the big upgrade. Once we have legions they wont be defending.
smackster said:
We will not have much money to do upgrades, since we are researching tech at max... and I am sure we will have wars before we get a chance to research IW... so we should have some spearmen-archers...
i am afraid we will have to knock out our 1st neighbour before we get to IW.
smackster
SGOTM
T10 3500BC continued
Warrior south to hill. Slider to 20% happiness. Building Armamentarium
T11 3450BC
Warrior 1 north to mountain, see more floodplain and more mountains
Warrios 2 south to hill, now we can see a nice cow and a nice looking lake due south, and another lake south, south east.
T12 3400BC
Warrior N turns due west, that is as far north as I'm going.
Warrior S sw to hill next to lake. The lake is a very nice blue.
T13 3350BC
Warrior N west to hill, see a big desert.
Warrior S east
N going to sweep down the west, and S is going to sweep up the east side.
Forest chop is complete, and we get the barracks. Start working on settler, in 15 however. If I could do it again, I might save that chop as suggested, but too late, I chopped it, its gone, shields are gone, chopped. -1 GPT now too, whoops.
T14 3300BC
Warriors sweep, not much new ground to be seen.
T15 3250BC
Sleeping
T16 3200BC
Alert alert, Alert alert, enemy sighted, enemy sighted. To the south east, Greek Phalanx, oh dear, run away, run away.
IBT Phalanx comes our way, oh dear, no contact however, well D is there, but I don't need to click it, hope I don't hit it by accident.
T17 3150BC
Our Warrior runs away to the north
Irrigation is complete, and we start to road that square, need the gold.
IBT Phalanx, start to follow our warrior.
T18 3100BC
We run away from Phalanx again, can't see him now
Rome grows to 3, Settler in 6, growth again in 5, which isn't so bad as it might be risky to drop it too low. Once the settler is build, start on warriors.
Slider up to 30% happiness, but BW now in 25. Although I'm tempted to slide sci to 10%, I think we should keep it there. When the warrior gets back then it will help this, and we should get it a lot quicker then.
IBT Can't shake the Phalanx off
T19 3050BC
Our warrior is returning home, next player will have to put him there
T20 3000BC
Phalanx finds us again, here have a look
Note that we just found another game, that a second city can get in reach of, and can steal the game from Rome. That might be the best Settler factory spot so far, we could cut that forest and mine the game, which would give us +5fpt, and lots of shields
Firaxis Score 86
Warrior south to hill. Slider to 20% happiness. Building Armamentarium
T11 3450BC
Warrior 1 north to mountain, see more floodplain and more mountains
Warrios 2 south to hill, now we can see a nice cow and a nice looking lake due south, and another lake south, south east.
T12 3400BC
Warrior N turns due west, that is as far north as I'm going.
Warrior S sw to hill next to lake. The lake is a very nice blue.
T13 3350BC
Warrior N west to hill, see a big desert.
Warrior S east
N going to sweep down the west, and S is going to sweep up the east side.
Forest chop is complete, and we get the barracks. Start working on settler, in 15 however. If I could do it again, I might save that chop as suggested, but too late, I chopped it, its gone, shields are gone, chopped. -1 GPT now too, whoops.
T14 3300BC
Warriors sweep, not much new ground to be seen.
T15 3250BC
Sleeping
T16 3200BC
Alert alert, Alert alert, enemy sighted, enemy sighted. To the south east, Greek Phalanx, oh dear, run away, run away.
IBT Phalanx comes our way, oh dear, no contact however, well D is there, but I don't need to click it, hope I don't hit it by accident.
T17 3150BC
Our Warrior runs away to the north
Irrigation is complete, and we start to road that square, need the gold.
IBT Phalanx, start to follow our warrior.
T18 3100BC
We run away from Phalanx again, can't see him now
Rome grows to 3, Settler in 6, growth again in 5, which isn't so bad as it might be risky to drop it too low. Once the settler is build, start on warriors.
Slider up to 30% happiness, but BW now in 25. Although I'm tempted to slide sci to 10%, I think we should keep it there. When the warrior gets back then it will help this, and we should get it a lot quicker then.
IBT Can't shake the Phalanx off
T19 3050BC
Our warrior is returning home, next player will have to put him there
T20 3000BC
Phalanx finds us again, here have a look
Note that we just found another game, that a second city can get in reach of, and can steal the game from Rome. That might be the best Settler factory spot so far, we could cut that forest and mine the game, which would give us +5fpt, and lots of shields
Firaxis Score 86
smackster
SGOTM
The Save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Smackster_SG003_BC3000_01.SAV
The Roster
smackster (just played)
Tarkeel (playing)
dmanahko (next up)
Wotan
DeceasedHorse
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Smackster_SG003_BC3000_01.SAV
The Roster
smackster (just played)
Tarkeel (playing)
dmanahko (next up)
Wotan
DeceasedHorse
Greeks, I hate them,
All they need to do is to fortify Phalanx and that hill with wine bring few archers and chop us in a little pieces.
We should avoid making contact with greeks, i was hoping we would have at least 2 cities before it happens...
I am betting that it will take just few turns before greeks contact us themselves. As soon as settler is built we need to build more units and maybe place our new city in direction opposite from where Greek phalanx showed up...
it will be easier to defend populated capital with bigger number of troops than new city.
All they need to do is to fortify Phalanx and that hill with wine bring few archers and chop us in a little pieces.
We should avoid making contact with greeks, i was hoping we would have at least 2 cities before it happens...
I am betting that it will take just few turns before greeks contact us themselves. As soon as settler is built we need to build more units and maybe place our new city in direction opposite from where Greek phalanx showed up...
it will be easier to defend populated capital with bigger number of troops than new city.
smackster
SGOTM
Greeks came from the east, I like that game site to the west, 4.5 squares, which could make us decide on RCP 4. Build the settler in Rome and then get Rome working on warriors, I never build archers, but maybe one if we get into a war.
Cut the other game, and then get that site working as our settler factory.
smackster
Cut the other game, and then get that site working as our settler factory.
smackster
we will need more than one archer...
Greeks will certainly bring archers to attack us.. I don't want to risk our cities until they attack us first, that should be a last resort. It would be better attack Greek Archers first. Warriors are useless in attacking archers. So we should have few archers to make sure we can eliminate initial greek attacking force. I believe Greeks won't have elite units but will rather send regular units to attack us at least for a while...
Stupid AI will be busy building temples and great wonders before they build barracks. i can see their Phalanx is regular not veteran.
I even suggest that if war start try to use archer rush hopefully defendand by spearmen. We should be able at least to do some pillaging and cripple greek economy...
Even if Greeks never contact us themselves according the rules we will have to declare war on them in 20 turns. (that's my believe anyway, and i hope i am wrong)
NO PASARAN!!!
Greeks will certainly bring archers to attack us.. I don't want to risk our cities until they attack us first, that should be a last resort. It would be better attack Greek Archers first. Warriors are useless in attacking archers. So we should have few archers to make sure we can eliminate initial greek attacking force. I believe Greeks won't have elite units but will rather send regular units to attack us at least for a while...
Stupid AI will be busy building temples and great wonders before they build barracks. i can see their Phalanx is regular not veteran.
I even suggest that if war start try to use archer rush hopefully defendand by spearmen. We should be able at least to do some pillaging and cripple greek economy...
Even if Greeks never contact us themselves according the rules we will have to declare war on them in 20 turns. (that's my believe anyway, and i hope i am wrong)
NO PASARAN!!!smackster
SGOTM
For the first civ we can wait, here is what MadBax wrote
2. For the first civ you meet, you must declare war before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time. You don't have to open diplomacy immediately, and you may wait until you are contacted if you so wish. For all other civs the clock starts ticking once you have closded the dip screen with them for the first time. The exception here is if you run out of civs, because you haven't met them yet, and more than 20 turns has elapsed since you last declared on someone. In this case you have to declare war iimediately before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
4. When you declare war for the first time, no more than 20 turns may elapse before declaring war on the 2nd civ you met. You MUST declare war on the next civ if you eliminate the previous civ within the 20 turn rule. Standard NOW merely requires that you declare war on the next CIV as soon as the previous civ is eliminated, but to prevent sandbagging and teams delaying the next war declaration by keeping a settler on a boat alive etc, the 20 turn rule applies.
2. For the first civ you meet, you must declare war before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time. You don't have to open diplomacy immediately, and you may wait until you are contacted if you so wish. For all other civs the clock starts ticking once you have closded the dip screen with them for the first time. The exception here is if you run out of civs, because you haven't met them yet, and more than 20 turns has elapsed since you last declared on someone. In this case you have to declare war iimediately before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
4. When you declare war for the first time, no more than 20 turns may elapse before declaring war on the 2nd civ you met. You MUST declare war on the next civ if you eliminate the previous civ within the 20 turn rule. Standard NOW merely requires that you declare war on the next CIV as soon as the previous civ is eliminated, but to prevent sandbagging and teams delaying the next war declaration by keeping a settler on a boat alive etc, the 20 turn rule applies.
smackster
SGOTM
This does seem to assume that you will be contacted by the first civ at some point.
And the clock does not start ticking, until you are contacted (clearly we will never initiate that first contact, until we have a stack of legions), and if we meet civ 2, 3, 4 etc, before that contact then we still wait.
This makes me think, that as soon as Greece contact us, then we want to meet civ 2, ASAP, as we would have 20 turns of trading with them. Now if we meet civ 2 and they contact us first, then do we declare on them instead of civ 1. Might be a better idea if they are further away and that they are not Greece
Do we need to clarify this with M-B?
smackster
And the clock does not start ticking, until you are contacted (clearly we will never initiate that first contact, until we have a stack of legions), and if we meet civ 2, 3, 4 etc, before that contact then we still wait.
This makes me think, that as soon as Greece contact us, then we want to meet civ 2, ASAP, as we would have 20 turns of trading with them. Now if we meet civ 2 and they contact us first, then do we declare on them instead of civ 1. Might be a better idea if they are further away and that they are not Greece
Do we need to clarify this with M-B?
smackster
I think you are right... if the second civ we meet contacts us first we declare war on them immediately... but then do we have to count 20 turns back since we met Greeks or since we declared war on that second unknown yet civs before we must declare war on Greeks. And it looks like since we have so many civilization we will have hard time to calculate that 20 turn rule and by the middle of AA we will have war with everyone in the world...
Another problem is that in PTW AI can trade communications with other civs very early... so even if we don' tmeet other civilization Greeks and who ever we meet first will trade communication with us to others and there we go... every 20 turns we will have to declare war on someone.
We can clarify with M-B...
I will bet you a $10000000 i don't have that Greeks will contact us in just few turns...
I think as soon as settler is built we should start building arhers and more archers.... Warriors will be useless against greek archers and hoplites.
we SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST CASE scenario and hope it doesn't happen.
Another problem is that in PTW AI can trade communications with other civs very early... so even if we don' tmeet other civilization Greeks and who ever we meet first will trade communication with us to others and there we go... every 20 turns we will have to declare war on someone.
We can clarify with M-B...
I will bet you a $10000000 i don't have that Greeks will contact us in just few turns...
I think as soon as settler is built we should start building arhers and more archers.... Warriors will be useless against greek archers and hoplites.
we SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST CASE scenario and hope it doesn't happen.
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