SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.

I am happy that we are playing quickly, as I tend to lose interest in games that plod along slowly. We currently have the highest score (you can't see the other scores, but we are first in the list), but we have played many more turns than most teams. Our score will only improve now that we have 5 well spaced cities. Territory plays a large part in determining the score, and we probably had less territory than most teams in the early game due to the close placement of Carthage and Utica.

On the flip side, we probably got our 20K city set up comparitively early. We should not forget that we are looking for the earliest possible 20K win, not the highest scoring win. With our slow start score-wise, we are probably not going to win the green laurel, so we should concentrate on the gold one.

 

[Bede]

Another thing to keep mind regarding score management is the reward for happy citizens, so if the gold reserves are adequate don't forget to crank up the lux slider, since the score is an average across all the turns and the greater the number of happy citizens for the longer term the higher the score. See SGOTM2 TEam Kuningas for verification.

Teams going for a conquest win will hit a big speed bump once they have to fight across the sea as with only 5 cities it takes a long time to build an adequate invasion force.

 

[MOTH]

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.

It may be that the variety of the turns slows down some too. We might be able to increase to 15 or 20 turns each in another couple of rounds.

 

[fbouthil]

550AD (preturn) -

IBT

Leptis Minor: Granary -> Courthouse
Leptis Magna: Archer->Cathedral​

560AD (1)

Worker joins Theveste.
1 NuMerc leaves the western front for Theveste to keep a garrison when the upgraded warriors will leave.​

IBT

Scandinavia wants an alliance against the Celts. I refuse. I do not want to prolong wars between the small countries.
Hippo: Horse -> Cathedral​

570AD (2)

Horse kills barb warrior and spots camp.​

IBT

Utica completes Sun Tzu. -> cathedral
Theveste: Library -> warrior​

580AD (3)

Disperse barb camp. Start moving out so another camp can appear. There is a barb galley close.
Disband 3 archers in Utica. Rush a market for 340g. Switch to cathedral. Disband 8 archers. Utica can build the 20sh left by himself.
No wonders are being built anywhere.​

IBT

The Indian galley and the barb galley are moving toward each other.
Leptis Minor expands and my trade advisor tells me I can now build MedInf.
Utica: Cathedral -> Palace.
Theveste: Warrior -> Cathedral. Am I on a holy quest to build that many cathedrals?​

590AD (4)

Upgrade 4 warriors to MedInf for 240g.​

IBT

We loose our supply of horses & furs.​

600AD (5)

Finish the mountain road suggested by Zakharov.
Move MedInf near Syracuse. ​

610AD (6)

DoW on Rome.
Move 10 units next to Syracuse.
Kill spear with horse, transforming the settler into 2 slaves.
Kill archer near Syracuse
Destroy Lutetia losing a horse. I risked the archer hoping it would get killed damaging a spear, but he won!
MM Leptis Minor to labour the wool instead of BG.
Trade wool to Persia for furs + 3g.​

IBT

A settler, escorted by spear + archer appear near Pisae, just out of reach.​

620AD (7)

Bombardment of Syracuse is completely useless.
Destroy Syracuse without losses, one MedInf promoted.
I could drop lux to 0%, but since we have +103gpt, I will keep it at 10% for a better score.​

630AD

Rome got caught in my little ambush. They moved 2 settlers + 2 spear + archer within range of our MedInfs. We kill them, promoting another MedInf.
Kill archer with horse.​

IBT

Rome drop an archer-settler pair near the wounded MedInfs.
Leptis Minor: Courthouse -> Market
Leptis Magna: Cathedral -> MedInf (to disband when we build an university in Utica.)​

640AD (9)

Kill archer defending settler with ¾ MedInf.
Kill 2 archers using NuMercs.​

IBT

Babylonians are building SC.
Barbs appears.​

650AD

NuMerc kills the archer after a horse failed.​

Only the Babylonians have theology. Our alliance against them finishes in 7t and the palace prebuild in 8t. If no other civ learns it by then, we have one turn to trade with them without damaging our rep or losing our prebuild.

The Celts have conquered a few Scandinavian cities who only have 2 left.

There is a barb camp just out of sight of the 2 horses near Hippo.

We now have 15 slaves, including 8 newly enroled! :devil2:

Most of the MedInf are healing in Theveste, the catapults are in Leptis Minor.

Score: 440
Jason: 583

The Save

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede - reading something
Zakharov - pondering about the meaning of live.
fbouthil - just played

 

[TimBentley]

Got it. I will play tomorrow. Here are some thoughts:

Should I start research once I learn theology? Greece will probably buy theology from Babylon sometime soon. I'm not sure whether Greece is researching theology or invention. We don't have that much to build and we still have a leader. I think research on printing press would be worth it, since that is usually ignored by the AI.

It looks like there isn't really anything else worth doing in the Roman war other than getting promotions. Any other Roman cities that should be razed?

Once astronomy is learned, it looks like the passage between Rome and Scandinavia will be crossed relatively soon, meaning our contact monopoly will end. Of course, it will be a little while before we have to worry about that.

I will start mining some tiles near Leptis Magna once it reaches size 12. Actually, I'll mine some unused tiles before then if our workers are bored.

 

[Zakharov]

Good turns fbouthil I see some nice looking elite units in our ranks.

Only the Babylonians have theology. Our alliance against them finishes in 7t and the palace prebuild in 8t. If no other civ learns it by then, we have one turn to trade with them without damaging our rep or losing our prebuild.

It has been a long time since any of those civs learned a new tech, so I am optimistic that we will have a wonder to build before the Palace prebuild is done. The AI civs don't like keeping a tech monopoly, they will trade it around at the first opportunity which will only benefit us. Whether we get Invention or Theology first, we should rush the available wonder and prebuild for the other.

With the leader, we should easily be able to get both the SC and Leo's, though another leader won't hurt.

Scandinavia wants an alliance against the Celts. I refuse. I do not want to prolong wars between the small countries.

You were right to refuse this as we have an alliance with both of them against the Babylonians. Am I right in thinking an alliance with one against the other would break the first alliance, giving us a rep hit?

 

[Zakharov]

Should I start research once I learn theology? Greece will probably buy theology from Babylon sometime soon. I'm not sure whether Greece is researching theology or invention. We don't have that much to build and we still have a leader. I think research on printing press would be worth it, since that is usually ignored by the AI.

You are right about PP, the AI always ignores it. We will need it to open up the tech path to get Shakespeare's Theatre. (8 culture, 400 shields ).

It looks like there isn't really anything else worth doing in the Roman war other than getting promotions. Any other Roman cities that should be razed?

I think we should leave the towns as they are. If we hit them too hard then they will not produce enough future units for us to farm leaders from. By all means pick off units in the open, making sure to use only veterans until we use the leader in Utica. We should continue this war for a few more turns yet. I would like a couple of turns of leader farming before signing peace.

Once astronomy is learned, it looks like the passage between Rome and Scandinavia will be crossed relatively soon, meaning our contact monopoly will end. Of course, it will be a little while before we have to worry about that.

I'm not worried about losing our contact monopoly. We have weakened the Romans and have our five cities in place. After we get the SC and Leo's built, we will want the tech pace to pick up anyway.

I will start mining some tiles near Leptis Magna once it reaches size 12. Actually, I'll mine some unused tiles before then if our workers are bored.

Try to use all of the river tiles for the commerce bonus. I think we need to think about clearing the jungle if our workers have nothing better to do, so that we can station military units on those tiles without the risk of disease. At the very least you should put a road through the jungle to give us a more direct route between LMOZ1 and Leptis Minor.

EDIT: I've just looked at the save again. There is one unhappy citizen in Utica. Should we increase the lux rate to 20% to give us a WLTKD? This will reduce corruption and waste, as well as helping us with our score.

 

[TimBentley]

EDIT: I've just looked at the save again. There is one unhappy citizen in Utica. Should we increase the lux rate to 20% to give us a WLTKD? This will reduce corruption and waste, as well as helping us with our score.

WLTKD would reduce waste (commerce corruption is unaltered by WLTKD) in Utica from about 13% to about 8%, resulting in 21 shields per turn instead of 20. However, that would shorten the palace prebuild from 8 turns to 7 turns, so I'll wait in case we are unable to obtain a useful technology from the Great Library and have to get it from Babylon, and reconsider it once a technology is obtained.

 

[Bede]

I would go for the WLKTD in Utica and if you need to slow the build send a citizen fishing.

I have a feeling that the contentment component is going to be critical in getting the best possible score at the finish line.

 

[fbouthil]

I agree with increasing lux and researching PP. I would suggest researching gunpowder if we get inv before theo as education often comes in before gunpowder (but not always).

I realized I forgot to disband the barracks we built before Sun Tzu. It does not give much but it is better than nothing.

Since we have a lot of slaves, we could also build a second ivory colony to trade with Persia for horses when we need them (we can wait until we have chivalry at least).

 

[TimBentley]

650(0)-MM Hippo for more gold

IBT-LMOZ1 MDI->MDI
Greece starts Leonardo's Workshop

660(1)-four people know invention, three know theology
horses each kill a barb
MM Theveste for food surplus, more gold
using the leader now would gain a bit of culture and only slow Utica by 5 turns, also allowing a chance for another leader
switch Utica to marketplace

IBT-Celts want alliance against Vikings, no way
learn theology, invention
Utica market->Sistine Chapel
Greece starts Sistine Chapel
Babylon starts LW

670(2)-rush Sistine Chapel
bombard a Roman archer twice, kill it with an elite NuMerc
MM Hippo for more food
set science to 50%, research to printing press
MM Theveste for more food

IBT-Utica celebrates WLTKD
Utica Sistine Chapel->Leonardo's Workshop
LMOZ1 MDI->MDI
Theveste cathedral->MDI
Hippo cathedral->colosseum (for WLTKD)
Babylon starts LW

680(3)-10% lux is needed for Leptis Minor
MM Leptis Minor for more gold

IBT-Leptis Minor market->cathedral
build wings on both side of palace

690(4)-MM Leptis Minor for cathedral in 7 (fastest) and most gold possible

IBT-Leptis Magna MDI->MDI
for some reason Theveste stopped WLTKD and didn't finish MDI

700(5)-so I maximize food in Theveste
increase food and money in Hippo
bombard archer twice, elite MDI kills it

IBT-Theveste MDI->MDI, WLTKD starts

710(6)-bombard archer three times, elite MDI gets a leader who will rush LW
I took a screenshot, but accidentally wrote over it
bombard archer twice, vet MDI kills it
switch Utica to courthouse

IBT-Celts, Vikings sign peace
Utica courthouse->wealth
LMOZ1 MDI->colosseum (for WLTKD without lux)
Ottomans start LW

720(7)-cancel MAs with Vikings and Celts
now Babylon won't sign peace

IBT-Babylon, Germany sign MA against us
Theveste MDI->colosseum (for WLTKD without lux)

730(8)-Rush Leonardo's Workshop in Utica
MM Hippo for more gold

IBT-Utica LW->palace

740(9)-elite MDI (edit: actually a NuMerc) kills archer and...

MM Hippo for more food

IBT-learn printing press, research set to gunpowder at 0%
Hippo colosseum->MDI

750(10)-three catapults bombard archer, vet MDI kills it

Here is the save.

Notes: Ottomans don't know Vikings or Celts (and others)
Persia doesn't know Rome (and others)
All others know those you would expect
I think AI is more likely to research gunpowder than education, but somebody might be researching education
Babylon still won't accept straight peace
Rome still won't talk
If cities have a cathedral and a colosseum, they will have WLTKD with lux at 0%
I didn't read fbouthil's post and have not sold barracks
Horsemen by barb camp are waiting for more barbs to appear (or will they not when you see the camp?)

Roster:
MOTH - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley - just played, gone from 10/8-10/12

 

[Bede]

Nicely done, sir. We are on a roll....

 

[Zakharov]

Well I got my wish didn't I? All three wonders in about 20 turns.

Any set of turns with a leader are good turns, but two leaders! [dance]

Something tells me our latest leader is already preparing the foundations of J.S.Bach's Cathedral.

As soon as we get Education from the GLib, we should max research Music Theory straight away. Once Bach's is rushed, we can start a prebuild for Copernicus' Observatory. From Astronomy, I say we should go banking, democracy and free artistry for Shakespeare's Theatre. Only then should we go back down to the bottom of the tech tree.

With all the elite units that we have, maybe we should keep the war with Rome going as long as we can. Provided we keep trading with Persia for furs, we should have the ability to keep our people happy.

There are only three IA wonders, so we need to get as many of the MA ones as we can. That means more leaders.

We should also think about loading Utica up with units for disband-rushing a university. What are the best units for this purpose now that we no longer have archers?

EDIT: I just had a look at the save. I see we already have a number of Med. Inf. in Utica.

 

[TimBentley]

We should also think about loading Utica up with units for disband-rushing a university. What are the best units for this purpose now that we no longer have archers?

Medieval infantry work well; I believe no shields are wasted and they are disbanded for 10 shields. In addition, both LMOZ1 and Theveste can build a MDI in two turns.

 

[TimBentley]

I was just thinking that there aren't many 20K attempts where wealth is built in the 20K city. Of course, in this case, the palace prebuild's shields were salvaged before rushing LW and there was an extra turn in which nothing could be built.

 

[fbouthil]

2 leaders! I feel like Homer Simpson in front of a donut!

I agree with Zakharov's research plan. I thought we would be building Copernicus (with a good prebuild) before rushing Bach, but research seems to be so slow that I think we should go for Bach first.

Unless you find a better usage for the workers, I would like to build a road in every hill and mountain in our territory so that saltpeter is connected automatically if we are lucky (!) enough to have it in our territory. Well, it is not really a question of luck but rather a choice from mad-bax and I doubt we can have saltpeter without trading for it, but just in case.

I doubt we will need another leader within 20t so I think it may be a good time to make peace with Rome so we can redeclare war on the turn the leader is consummed. We can actually get 13g, 2 slaves & 3 cities for peace, but I think we should accept only Cumae because its borders overlap Leptis Minor. Taking 3 Roman cities would make the romans too weak. Of course, we could also wait until we get a few more elite units, but we already have 5 elite units that did not give any leaders yet (a unit that gives a leader has to be upgraded before it can give another).

BTW, what should Utica be prebuilding right now? An university?

 

[MOTH]

Here's my turns:

0-750 mm hippo for more gold.

IBT - Leptis Minor Cathedral>Colloseum, Hippo WLTKD

1-760 Merc vs Archer wins no promotion.

IBT - zzz

2-770 India will trade and has horses, 33 GPT, and 133G. They want a tech so I hold off. I give them spices and wool for 132G and 6GPT. Rome will talk and Babylon will talk but neither is a good deal.

IBT - India declares war on Persia. LMOZ1 Colloseum>MDI. Hippo MDI>MDI

3-780 Horse vs Barb wins no promo

IBT - Rome wants to talk. They will give 3 cities for peace. I think about it as we could build a second Army but say no. They then move archers and a galley to our area. Theveste Colleseum>MDI

4 - 790 Theveste MM for more gold and slower MDI since we are getting high for unit maintenence. MM Minor for +1 G. MM Utica to slow down Palace in exchange for gold (since we nearly have 200 shields for University now.) Kill a couple of archers, but no promos.

IBT - Rome drops of an archer near hippo. LMOZ1 MDI>MDI

5 - 800 Let the archer live for now.

IBT - Germans want peace for Invention - no Archer pillages a hill. Minor builds colloseum > Wealth. Hippo MDI>MDI.

We now have all citizens happy

6 - 810 Kill 2 archers, one promo.

IBT - Persians want alliance - no. LMOZ MDI>MDI Theveste MDI>Galley

7 - 820 Horse vs Archer promotes.

IBT - Archer moves in.

8 - 830 Arcger vs Archer promotes.

IBT - Greece demands contact with India - no and they back down. LMOZ1 MDI>MDI Hippo MDI>Galley

9 - 840 MDI vs Archer no promo. Greece has gunpowder - they want a lot.B

IBT - Babs talk still want stuff for peace. Theveste - Galley>Galley

10 850 - It takes 3 galleys near Theveste, but we sink a Roman galley. Another MDI promotes vs an Archer. An Merc doesnt promote.

Firaxis score of 507 - just behind India at 508.
Jason 671

Hamurabi just got Education and Gunpowder and still doesn't want easy peace. Greece also has Education and Gunpowder so we get these next turn.
Rome will now give us 3 cities and 2 workers. If we want to make a second Army this should let us do it. If we need 9 cities for Army #2 then take Pisae and then get the remaining 3 cities for peace.
Otto has gunpowder.
Persia fur deal can be cancelled and renegotiated if we want.
Germany is close to offering peace.

I was building a couple galleys as I wanted to kill the Roman ones floating around. I was using the workers to improve some land to make it easier to get around and to have mines in all the mountains for much later.

Can we use the "big picture" to cycle through the cities and get Universitys built right away? I don't remember if we get that or not with GL techs. We may want to move some Mercs into the cities as well to disband toward the Unis.

Rotation:
Bede - up
Zakarov - on deck
fbouthil
timbently
MOTH

 

[MOTH]

the save is here

 

[Bede]

Got it. Play tomorrow.

Concur with plan as outlined. Johann, then Willie.

Make nice with Rome.

 

[MOTH]

By the way,
I welcome any constructive criticism on my play. I always do well in the early game and start falling apart once the game gets to this stage.

Looking back I see the following mistakes:
I shouldn't have switched Leptis Minor to Wealth as 2 more MDI would have meant 20 shields toward a University. 20 sheilds = 80 gold. Do to my switch to wealth I produced 5G and saved 8G in maintenance. The break even point is 40 turns for an MDI of rush savings vs maintenance. What is the next big capital expense after Unis and is this more than 40 turns away?

I should have built a harbor at Utica and then started the Uni pre-build. Having the leader stick around gives us some lee-way in the pre-build area and we will need the food once we have sanitation.

A few good things I did was to max out the size 12 production at Leptis Minor by building a couple of forests. I also got the road net extended some more. I also got 2 more Elite MDI, an Elite Horse, and an Elite Archer promoted during my turns.