SGOTM5 - Team jeffelammar

[CKS]

Here is the save.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/jeffelammar_SG005_BC1500_02.sav

Turn 0, 1750 BC Everything looks good. It isn’t clear to me that the peninsula northeast of Moscow stops at the end of the visible land, but I trust that it does.

IBT We expand to get the furs, and we see a barb to the west.

Turn 1, 1725 BC Reduce lux to 10% and watch the barb.

Turn 2, 1700 BC Nothing

Turn 3, 1675 BC Start moving archer towards the barb.

IBT Workers finish roading.

Turn 4, 1650 Start mining the horse hill, send other worker to road the other river forest.

Turn 5, 1625 Continue moving archer

Turn 6, 1600 Moscow grows, set lux to 20%, science to 60% for 0 gpt.

Turn 7, 1575 Archer chases barb

Turn 8, 1550 Archer chases barb

IBT 2 barbs attach archer, it promotes to elite while losing 1 hp

Turn 9, 1525 Archer moves toward barb camp.

Turn 10, 1500 BC Archer disperses barb camp.

We are 10 turns from mapmaking. We would finish colossus in 1 turn, and pyramids in 18 turns, so we are probably also 10 turns from the great lighthouse (300 shields). Moscow also is scheduled to grow in 10 turns.

The barb camp gave us a little cushion of cash. We should take the elite archer back to Moscow and let the vet archer go on barb patrol.

 

[grahamiam]

nice CKS, an elite is always good. i assume great leaders will be mostly used for army's since we can't rush wonders and i don't know what we would need 250 shields for except the FP or palace (if they can be used for that).

Roster
denyd <- UP
grahamiam <- on deck
jeffelammar
bed_head7
CKS

Please remember, we need to send the 1000BC save to MB to be fixed!

Let's organize our research discussion a little (for after MM)
denyd -> Lit
grahamiam -> HBR (after waffling )
jeff -> HBR
bedhead -> Lit
CKS -> Lit

Seems that the Lit's have it. Any objections?

 

[mad-bax]

Once the 1000BC save is uploaded you can PM me in case I don't notice

I'll replace your save from the submissions page. I havent forgotten about giving you the bic/bix files grahamiam.

 

[denyd]

Looks like it's my turn, so I got it.

A quick review of what I should be doing.

1. Complete research on Map Making if possible
2. Use Pyramids pre-build to complete Great Lighthouse when available
3. Build galleys
4. Complete improvements around Moscow

If we don't intend to build the Great Library, then I don't see any reason to waste research time on Literature. We should go either for HBR (on the road to Monarchy) or IW (IMHO). Based on CKS log, research on MM should complete on my final turn, so the next person will have the tech decision.

 

[grahamiam]

actaully, denyd, i think your going to hit the spacebar 10x should go barb hunting with the other vet archer, i suppose. otherwise, not much to do unless you can speed up research.

imho, we don't need GLib @ regent. we do, however, need more cities and the only way to get them is via pointy stick weren't you the guy who bankrupted all civ's in bugs1 with some plucky tech trading? don't you think we can do that again? 400 shields = 3 galleys + 31 warriors or ~15 chariots. how many cities can we get with that for chariots -> horseman, we'll only need 300g for upgrades which should be doable after HBR is learned, contacts + trading, and min research run on math or whatever. warriors -> swords is about 1200g, if i'm calculating correctly.

 

[CKS]

I'm okay with horseback riding or ironworking instead of literature. I think a library in Moscow would be nice, but horses or swordsmen will get us some off-island cities. Personally, I prefer swordsmen to horsemen, as I have rotten luck with horses, but their speed is nice.

Especially if we build a bunch of horses, I agree with jeff. We should build some roads out from Moscow to outer edges of our island. We don't want to be wasting turns moving our galleys through lots of coastal waters. My experience has been that barbs don't pillage in no-man's-land, so we'd need an escort for the workers, but we probably don't need to protect the road.

 

[jeffelammar]

If we don't intend to build the Great Library, then I don't see any reason to waste research time on Literature. We should go either for HBR (on the road to Monarchy) or IW (IMHO). Based on CKS log, research on MM should complete on my final turn, so the next person will have the tech decision.

I've weighed in on my choice already. I like HBR because we know that we have horses availiable.

Going for IW is a gamble since we have no idea where iron will appear.
The only place it could appear is the two mountains. One of which would require a colony to get. Given that this is a custom map, it very well may be there, but I don't want to gamble on it.

 

[denyd]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/jeffelammar_SG005_BC1250_01.SAV

Turn Log 2

Turn 0 – 1500 BC – Shift slider to get Map Making 2 turns earlier (it’ll cost 24g)

IBT: The first palace expansion gets us a front lawn

Turn 1 – 1475 BC – Robin (Elite Archer) heading home

IBT: Olga completes road

Turn 2 – 1450 BC – Olga sent to SW woods – Robin heading home

IBT: Not much

Turn 3 – 1425 BC – Olga & Robin move

IBT: Even less

Turn 4 – 1400 BC – Olga reaches trees

IBT: Nada

Turn 5 – 1375 BC – Olga starts road – Robin MP in Moscow – Hood (Vet Archer) heads out to hunt some barbarians – Reducing science keeps MM in 3 and saves 2gpt

IBT: Barbarian warrior (BW) spotted in SE – Anna completes mine

Turn 6 – 1350 BC – Anna heads to woods NE of Moscow – Hood head for BW

IBT: BW heading for our horses

Turn 7 – 1325 BC – Anna starts road – Hood heading for horses will wait for BW – Science to 50% to save 2g and still get MM next turn

IBT: BW heading N – Discover Map Making research Horseback Riding at 70% due in 10 – Switch from Pyramids to Great Lighthouse due in 2 – MM Moscow to get in 1

Turn 8 – 1300 BC – Hood (4/4) kills BW

IBT: Moscow builds Great Lighthouse starts a galley MM to get in 2

Turn 9 – 1275 BC – Hood heading SE to find Barbarian Village

IBT: Not much

Turn 10 – 1250 BC – Hood heading SE

After action: Treasury is 17g and –1gpt research will get Horseback Riding in 9, but Moscow is going to grow next turn and will need additional luxury rate – We might consider MM Moscow to zero growth – The first galley is also going to complete next turn and is going to add 1 to unit support (currently at 1) - No changes on the map, but the next player should be seeing some new lands and might be making some contacts.

Grahamiam was quite right, this took less than an hour including upload/download time.

 

[jeffelammar]

After action: Treasury is 17g and –1gpt research will get Horseback Riding in 9, but Moscow is going to grow next turn and will need additional luxury rate – We might consider MM Moscow to zero growth – The first galley is also going to complete next turn and is going to add 1 to unit support (currently at 1) - No changes on the map, but the next player should be seeing some new lands and might be making some contacts.

Good news. Now we'll be able to figure out who to kill first.

I wouldn't worry too much about the unit support. We're going to have to get used to it for a while. When we start our first attack we'll probably need 6-8 offensive units plus a couple galleys. That will be expensive, but will also pay off by getting us more cities.

Should we discuss which way to send the first galley, or just leave it to grahamiam?


I personally would vote for letting Moscow continue to grow. It might take more luxes, but will probably pay off in the long run. It is a close call, so I am ok with either way.

Roster
grahamiam <- UP
jeffelammar <- On Deck
bed_head7
CKS
denyd

EDIT: Remember to pause after this turn set. We need to PM M-B when we upload it so he can give our opponents more cities for us to conquer.

 

[bed_head7]

My vote would definitely be to let Moscow grow.

 

[grahamiam]

i'll let moscow grow. as far as galley's go, i'm thinking we need at least 3 right away, maybe 4. with HBR due so soon, it doesn't make sense to bother with chariots. do we want to beeline for Monarachy after HBR or go after Republic? I figure we can trade for IW.

got it, btw.

 

[jeffelammar]

i'll let moscow grow. as far as galley's go, i'm thinking we need at least 3 right away, maybe 4. with HBR due so soon, it doesn't make sense to bother with chariots. do we want to beeline for Monarachy after HBR or go after Republic? I figure we can trade for IW.

Agreed on Galleys. We need either 3 or 4. Once you start moving, remember that we have differential naval movement on. This actually makes suicide galleys easier because they can get a long way in ocean, so often only spend 1 turn in unsafe water, especially with the lighthouse.

If we can get one more shield from Moscow we'll be at 15. A perfect number for both Galleys and Horsemen.

I'm on the fence between Monarchy and Republic.
I am leaning toward Republic this morning.
As far as I can tell from the announcement, we have a classic vanilla Republic, so no unit support, but also just a 1 gold per.

Reasons for Republic:
1. Extra commerce will offset unit support unless we have a Massive army.
2. Better economy if we find ourselves taking a break from war.

Reasons for Monarchy:
1. No War Weariness.
2. Unit support.

 

[denyd]

I'm thinking at least 3 galleys and then start on horses. With a little luck we'll be able to find a weak neighbor and snatch a couple of size 2 cities and then get some techs for peace.

As for research, I think monarchy is probably a better choice (though I prefer republic) due to the war weariness & support factors. Once we get to 3-4 cities, this game should get a lot easier.

 

[CKS]

I'm for letting Moscow grow.

I think 3 galleys are sufficient if we've found neighbors by the time we finish number 3. If we haven't found anyone yet, we should probably go with 4. Then start building horsemen and getting them to a good loading spot.

I like monarchy. At least at first, we will have a massive military for the size of our civ, and I think that war weariness will be a significant issue, at least at first.

 

[grahamiam]

i wouldn't worry about the exact number of galleys. if i build an extra, that's another 2 units that can get there much quicker. plus, if we have to survive an ocean crossing, we'll need 2-3x the number of galleys required to get the troops safely across.

 

[denyd]

From what I remember of the map, there's a lot of islands we'll be able to reach from just coastal waters. The additional movement and safety in sea tiles will probably mean we'll never have to risk any suicide galleys. We'll just have to watch out for the Barbarian galleys. If possible end each galley turn on a sea tile. Safe for us and barbarians won't attack us if this would be their last move for the turn.

I think we'll probably find an AI rather quickly. I'm hoping for an unclaimed tile on another island for us to stockpile troops before declaring. That would save on extra galley costs. We should try to engage the nearest AI to save on extra unit costs until we can get a couple more cities.

 

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: Ok, grow in 1T, boat in 2T, 14 shields. Decide we need the boat now so I MM for 16 shields vs 14. will only loss 1 food and we’re 1 food short of pop 10 so this will be ok.

IBT: galley -> galley

T1: 1225BC This shield count will be a pain for the rest of these turns. However, I believe we need those galley’s out and about. Olga is done roading and I don’t know what to do with her. GLight is very useful as our galleys get 7 mp’s vs 6. Galley goes SE’ward

IBT: palace gets a new front door

T2: 1200BC Olga is roading the tundra E of the capitol. At least we can mine it for a shield. MM Moscow off fish and onto forest for 16s.

IBT: Moscow: galley -> galley

T3: 1175BC Hood (vet archer) flawlessly kills a barb on barb camp and collects 25g.

T4: 1150BC MM Moscow off fish and onto forest for 16s. Hood heads back towards town.

IBT: Moscow galley -> galley (I really think this is the best choice)

T5: 1125BC The suicide sister heads due south into open water. Jackpot! I see 2 borders
Olga begins mining the tundra.

T6: 1100BC Contact Zulu. The are up IW and HBR, but down Alpha, They know the French, English, Vikings, Chinese, and Mongols. They have 5 cities total. Move the Suicide Sister next to a greenish/yellow boarder. Lower sci slider to 40%, HBR 1T, +3gpt, 27g in the bank.

IBT: HBR->Myst. Barb warrior approaches Moscow from the N.

T7: 1075BC Westbound galley finds pink border (Chinese?). Also, the Mongols are met. They are up IW but down Mas, Alpha, CB, and HBR. They only know the French and English.
Darn it! Forgot to MM Moscow last turn . MM this turn for growth and an extra shekel. Also switch to horse so we can try to barb hunt a little.

IBT: Moscow horse -> horse

T8: 1050BC Meet the Chinese. They are up IW but down Alpha, CB, and HBR. They know the Vikings but not the Mongols. Suicide Sister Galley ends up on Orange borders.

T9: 1025BC Meet the English. They are up Myst and IW, plus have 34g. They know the Aztecs, Arabs, French, Iroq, Jap’s, and Celts.
Horseman kills barb, MM Moscow to get another next turn.
Sell CB and HBR and WM to China, getting IW and WM.
Zulu up Myst so I sell the Alpha and WM, getting Myst and WM
Set research to Poly @ min -> +7gpt.
Notice that the AI’s don’t have any roads.
Sell our WM to the English, getting Contact with Aztecs, TM, and 34g (all of it)
Sell Aztecs WM, getting WM, contact with Iro, and 19g (all of it)
Sell Iro WM, getting WM, contact with Arabs, and 26g (2 short of all of it)
Only up MM on Iro.
Sell Arabs WM, getting WM, contact with Japan, and 32g (all of it), they are only down MM.
Sell Japan WM, getting WM, contact with French, and 11g (all of it), they are only down MM.
We now have 152g in the bank and are missing contact with the Celts and Vikings, but we know where they live
Sell WM to England for WM and contact with Celts. Note: English have MM.
Sell WM to Celts for WM and 26g (all of it)
Sell WM to China for contact with Vikings
Sell WM to Vikings for WM and 20g (all of it). They are down Writing and Myst.
Ok, now we have 198g in the bank.

We are missing contact with the Spanish, Indians, Egyptians, and Americans.

Iron is 4T SW of Moscow, on the mountain.

Leave science on Min as we now know our targets, time to get nasty.

IBT: Moscow horse -> horse

T10: 1000BC Thanks to all that WM trading, we know where the barb huts are located. Suicide Sister meets a barb galley.

Moscow is at +2fpt, +14spt. It must be micromanaged every-other turn to get 30 shields every 2T. I am building a mine next to Moscow so we don’t have to do this at size 12.

We can safely transport all troops S and SW (Zulu, Mongols, Chinese, and Vikings), and probably anywhere else we want.

Workers are closed around the capitol so I could protect them if a barb pops out of nowhere. Mine will be helpful at larger size so we can get to 15spt while still working the fish and lake. We now have enough troops if we want to road to all ends of the island.

 

[jeffelammar]

WOW. What a set of turns.

I've just pm'ed Mad-Bax to let him know we have hit 1000BC. (If you already had, then I guess he'll get two pms.)

We should use the time between now and the new save arriving to plan our next move. I'll post my thoughts after I gather them

Interesting land mass though.

 

[grahamiam]

we still have 2 options for warring:
1. build warriors now (1 every turn) up to about 8, then upgrade for 320g
2. continue building horseman (1 every 2T), up to about 6.

it may be best to do the warrior -> swordsman upgrade path now, then start building galleys to get them overthere while Olga or whoever builds an iron colony. Once we have 4 more galleys in port, transport them over while building a second wave which will be exclusively horseman.

there are so many targets that i'm left dizzy but I would probably go after the Chinese and Vikings 1st since they have decent MA UU's
Zulu and Mongols (they have an MW type UU now) have decent AA UU's and can come later once we have a large force on the land. We should strike fast and hard. We probably only need to research to Chivalry to end this one.
For our future palace, it seems that the land is mostly narrow. The Iroquois and Arabs have very nice land, though it might come too late.

 

[CKS]

This was a really helpful set of turns.

I haven't thought much about it yet, but my first thoughts are that building warriors now would let us aim for food production in Moscow for a while instead of having to micromanage all the time. The extra attack strength of some swordsmen will be nice, and we have money to upgrade.

I'm all for wiping out the Vikings and Chinese early on.