SGOTM5 - Team jeffelammar

[jeffelammar]

Good job not hesitating.

Couple Comments:
1. Not a big deal, but why didn't you use all 3 galleys to take troops across?

2. I'm perfectly willing to trade 2 swords to get another town.

3. The strategy for a conquest game is exactly what you just did. Get enough forces in place and let them have it. In a regent game, I wouldn't bother with Catapults. They won't be able to keep up with our horsemen anyway. Kill ratio is important, but not critically so. You've started us off toward a conquest victory quite well.

4. A harbor won't do us any good in Nidarus yet. Until astronomy we won't be able to trade across seas and oceans. I'd go for a courthouse or barracks first.

5. Army wise, I'd fill it with Horses, but I think you guys already know my preference for speed. If folks prefer swords, that is fine too.

Once we have iron hooked up on the new continent we should seriously consider Denyd's suggestion from a few posts back. We could ditch our iron colony and start mass producing warriors to ship across and upgrade.

 

[bed_head7]

I'll respond in order:

1. I was using all three, one was just ahead of the two others so it dropped off its two units and then the other two dropped off their four, assuming you are referring to turn 7-8.

2. I still don't like waste, but I am more of a builder so if you say it is alright, I'll take your word for it.

3. Good to know I did alright, but I don't think it will hurt to have a few catapults if we can pull 20spt. I certainly would not advocate building them at 15spt, which is where we are. As long as we have a few swords, though, it is nice to have some catapults to go along with them.

4. With Great Lighthouse, we can trade over sea, I think. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't bother, but I know in Conquests it allows trade over the sea. Perhaps that is not the case in PTW.

5. I never placed my vote, but I am completely ambivalent.

And I won't protest if the team wants it, but I generally don't like resource disconnect.

 

[grahamiam]

3. Good to know I did alright, but I don't think it will hurt to have a few catapults if we can pull 20spt. I certainly would not advocate building them at 15spt, which is where we are. As long as we have a few swords, though, it is nice to have some catapults to go along with them.

i disagree with this. at regent, i'd rather have troops that can hold ground. the other problem i have with it is that it's basically our only barracks town. usually, i build cats in non-barracks towns that have medium to high corruption. however, in this game, i'd even take spears and archers from corrupt towns over cat's.

my overall advise is to keep up the military production. horses are fine, and we can even throw in a sword or 2 now and again.

for the army, either horse or swords are fine. i was picked the sword army just so we'd have a viable unit in case pikes suddenly show up. and, since this is sgotm, i have no problem doing a resourse disconnect/reconnect to get 4 or 5 quick swordsman.

 

[denyd]

My vote is for a sword army. It will serve as shelter for the horseman and be able to hit hard enough to take on pikes.

We might consider just pillaging the iron next to Moscow for good. If we could pop rush a barracks on the other island and if iron is connected, we could do all our upgrading in the Viking lands.

CKS is up and I'm on deck if I am correct. I'll be unavailable on the 10 & 11th (back to back Christmas parties), but I should be able to get my set played long before that.

 

[CKS]

I've got the save and will probably play tonight and upload tomorrow morning.

I don't have a strong preference on the army. Swords will be slow but powerful, while a horse army would have survivability that horses don't. I tend to play a slower, safer game, so I'd pick swords if it were my own game. Since it will be my decision, if you want horses, convince me now.

The great lighthouse allows trading over sea tiles. If we have a sea connection, and I think there probably is one, but I can't look right now, a harbor somewhere in Viking lands will be a good deal. If there are only ocean connections, it won't help. Since Moscow is our big, productive city, getting some extra luxes there would help our finances. If we don't have a sea connection, I agree that a courthouse and barracks would really help.

I'm planning on heading for Oslo first. Then we'll see what other size 2 or bigger cities are available. If the Vikings start pop-rushing, we may have to wait for cultural expansion of their capitol before we can attack. If this is the case, I think we should declare on the Chinese, too. Then we can pick off towns from each as they grow or expand.

 

[jeffelammar]

1. I was using all three, one was just ahead of the two others so it dropped off its two units and then the other two dropped off their four, assuming you are referring to turn 7-8.

I got confused when you mentioned in your turn 1

I also decided to make it a galley, since we have two explorin' and two shippin' galleys. "

At the end of my turns, I had 3 galleys and all 3 of them were 2 turns of movement away from the loading point. My intent had been to have all 3 start ferrying troops, so we wouldn't need to build another galley.

I know this sounds like I'm being a jerk here, but that isn't my intention. Your turns were just fine. I was just trying to figure out where I failed to communicate my intent.

2. I still don't like waste, but I am more of a builder so if you say it is alright, I'll take your word for it.

You don't want a bad kill ratio long term. The thing is that the RNG will always give you some bad runs. Your loss of 2 swords is the result of the RNG not anything you did. Long term I don't want to lose 2 swords for each city, but it is certainly NOT anything you did wrong.

If we have a sea connection, and I think there probably is one, but I can't look right now, a harbor somewhere in Viking lands will be a good deal.

I don't think there is a sea route to the new lands, but I may be wrong about that. I'd have to check the save. If there is no sea route, then we can't trade with anyone (even ourselves) unless we do one of two things.
A. Move our capitol to the new continent.
B. Learn Navigation or Magnetism

On the subject of next build, I say TROOPS TROOPS TROOPS. IM(NS)HO, there is no need for any armies other than the ones we get from leaders. We should keep cranking out horsemen from Moscow until we are ready to implement Denyd's warrior plan OR forever if we decide not to disconnect the iron.

 

[CKS]

On the subject of next build, I say TROOPS TROOPS TROOPS. IM(NS)HO, there is no need for any armies other than the ones we get from leaders. We should keep cranking out horsemen from Moscow until we are ready to implement Denyd's warrior plan OR forever if we decide not to disconnect the iron.

If there is no sea connection, I think we build warriors in all our new cities and upgrade once we get iron connected there. We are going to have a lot of corrupt cities with poor road connections for a long time. We should use them to build cheap warriors. We'll need some workers to build roads, but they won't be able to get started until the war has moved on a bit. The barracks will be a pain to build first until we get to monarchy since we won't be able to pop-rush much (these towns will mostly be small), but we'll then have a steady supply of warriors without disconnecting Moscow. I don't really like disconnecting the iron in Moscow to build warriors anyway, since they waste a bunch of shields. Throwing away 1/3 of Moscow's shields is a big deal here, since none of our other cities will produce many until we get corruption under control.

 

[CKS]

If there is no sea route, then we can't trade with anyone (even ourselves) unless we do one of two things.
A. Move our capitol to the new continent.

I had originally been thinking that abandoning Moscow was a bad idea since we'd lose the Great Lighthouse. However, we have this huge long island instead of a bunch of little ones, so sea travel isn't going to be as important. I don't know if abandoning Moscow is the way to go, but I'm open to considering it. Building a palace, or even a forbidden palace, would be a tremendous undertaking without being able to use a leader to rush it.

 

[grahamiam]

delete post. we cannot use the leader to rush a FP

 

[denyd]

Actually with only a couple of cities, the 250 shields a GL disbands as is probably most (if not all) of a small empire FP.

As for abandoning Moscow, I'm against it. The location is pretty central (though a distance from) most of the cities we'll acquire in the next 100 or so turns.

 

[CKS]

The forbidden palace is always 200 shields, but my understanding is that disbanding a leader won't give us shields toward a FP, a palace, or any wonder.

I also realized we can't make an army until we get a few more cities, so that will be my first order of business.

 

[jeffelammar]

I also realized we can't make an army until we get a few more cities, so that will be my first order of business.

I think we can all agree on that.
In fact, I would say that that should be everyone's priority at all times in this game.

 

[CKS]

I noticed something very peculiar while getting ready to play last night, and consequently I didn't start. _Every_ civilization on the large continent has 2 workers for sale (except the Vikings, of course, who had 2 workers until we took Nidaros), while none of the civilizations on the north continent have any. This seems likely to be a bug. I'm going to ask mad_bax about it. If it is just coincidence, do we want to buy them all? We are talking about 20 foreign workers. Between maps and techs, I think we can get them pretty easily. I haven't negotiated with all the civs, but (for example) we can get both Mongol workers for our world map. This would give us a huge advantage, and continue the crippling of the AI, who still haven't built much in the way of roads, but it is perhaps taking unfair advantage of them.

On the sea connection question, we have a definite connection to the northern continent. It is possible that there is a sea connection from it to the long continent, but we haven't explored it yet. I'll work on this.

 

[grahamiam]

i would buy around 6 so we can replace the eq workers (use them to rush swords, a library, or a market). i wouldn't buy 20 if that bankrupts us or significantly speeds up the research rate.

WM deals for workers are great! i would do as many of those as possible. if we can get 20 without giving away anything but maps, that would be unbelievable.

 

[denyd]

This is probably what MB had to fix. The AI didn't know about build the eqWorkers, so when he fixed the file, he probably gave each tribe a pair to get them going.

Buy 6-8 of the cheapest (unless you can get them all without giving up anything important). Letting them build some roads for us will speed up future assaults.

I'm not sure what we can do with our current workers (join to city or disband for shields), but not having to pay their support would help.

 

[CKS]

This is probably what MB had to fix. The AI didn't know about build the eqWorkers, so when he fixed the file, he probably gave each tribe a pair to get them going.

This is what bugs me. It's been 500 years - 20 turns. Why are they still sitting available for us to buy? And why do all the civs on the long continent have theirs, while none of the civs on the northern continent do? If this was part of the fix, it didn't work too well.

I don't think the AI is going to build roads with these workers (they haven't so far), so I'm inclined not to let them keep them. We can build our own roads with them.

 

[bed_head7]

I didn't see those workers when I was playing.

 

[jeffelammar]

I just got a PM from M-B that indicates that we should just go on.

He said he would check our save to make sure, but that this is an effect of the map, not a bug.

Take the AIs for all they're worth CKS.

 

[mad-bax]

Team Peanut had the same thing. I was able to play through the game and watch with a utility as the workers began to hide in the nearest cities at the era change. Because the bug fix included adding two workers to each capital at 1000BC and your era change is soon after this the nearest city it the capital.

Many of the AI will be affected by the era uprisings, it was an intentional "feature" of the map. What was unintended was that workers would dive into the capital rather than other cities. Since PTW and vanilla are playing different competitions because of this bug I see no reason to stop you utilising your success in getting a foothold on another continent so early to its' fullest. Making up some arbitrary rule to kneecap you for X turns would just be lame.

 

[CKS]

Here is the save.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/jeffelammar_SG005_BC0350_01.sav

Short summary: We got a lot of workers, found a sea route, and didn't do so well militarily.

Turn 0, 550 BC: Lots of trades for workers
Aztecs: Our WM for 2 workers & WM
Mongols: Our WM for 2 workers & WM
China: Our WM & contact with Celts and Mongols for 2 workers & WM - I have no idea why they haven't met yet.
Celts: Our WM & contact with America for 2 workers & WM - They have met India already.
France: Our WM & contact with America & math for 2 workers & WM & 1 g - They have already met India.
Japan: Our WM & lit & philosophy & 45 g for 2 workers + WM
Arabia: Our WM & contact with America, Egypt, Spain & 128 g for 2 workers - They have already met India.

England, Zulu, and Iroquois all want 100+ g per worker, so I don't buy. The workers are still sitting there available to buy if we want them later.

The workers mine another tundra square. I move our leader out of Nidaros in case it flips, which is very unlikely, but possible. The unhappy citizen in Nidaros becomes an entertainer.

IBT We quell 2 resistors and Nidaros revolts. Moscow builds harbor and starts a horse. Moscow builds a horse every 2 turns for the rest of the time.

Turn 1, 530 BC Move workers toward boats, transport units in boats except Anna starts back to Moscow. Boats explore, looking for sea route. Vikings have pop-rushed and all cities are size 1. 3 Viking archers have appeared, I kill 2 and the workers retreat.

IBT 3rd archer retreats horse, We quell 1 resistor, Nidaros starves, Indians start the Great Library

Turn 2, 510 BC Archer kills warrior. Continue transporting and exploring. Oslo is back at size 2, start moving toward it.

IBT Warrior kills archer on hill. Japan starts GLib

Turn 3, 490 BC England has currency. Vet sword dies attacking regular archer in forest, it takes no damage and promotes. 2nd sword redlines but kills it. Oslo is size 1, so no hurry to get there.

IBT Mongols start the Oracle. We lose our last resistor.

Turn 4, 470 BC Anna joins Moscow. I find a sea route to the long continent, provided the connection to the small continent to our east works - corners touching.

IBT Iroquois start Great Library

Turn 5, 450 BC Moving around. Will declare on Chinese next turn.

IBT Nidaros riots as I had moved an MP out without realizing it. French start GLib

Turn 6, 430 BC Declare on Chinese, move troops next to Canton.

IBT Viking archer dies attacking sword, which it redlines.

Turn 7, 410 BC Sword heals just outside of Oslo. 2 swords and 1 horse by Oslo. Canton attacks: 2 horses retreat, 2 die, archer wins and promotes. Pull a horse from Nidaros just in case it is needed.

Turn 8, 390 BC Horse retreats, archer wins, takes Canton. Start barracks.

Turn 9, 370 BC Move sword up to protect Nidaros from incoming warriors

Turn 10, 350 BC Oslo has expanded, still size 1. Because I had to move the sword up to protect Nidaros, I only have 2 swords and a horse. I decide to attack anyway. First the sword by Nidaros kills 1 warrior. Then the swords by Oslo kill their spear opponents. There is a 3rd spear there. I figure, what the heck, and I give the horse a shot. It dies.

The Vikings will give us 2 cities for peace. I think we should take Oslo and then make peace, taking as many cities as we can get - all but 1 or 2 of them. Then make some progress on the Chinese, who have larger cities. By the time we've made it through the Chinese, our 20 turns will be up and we can finish off the Vikings. This will give us some cities quickly, with native citizens in them, and it will let the Vikings' cities grow and expand so we can take them.

The Iroquois, English, and Zulu still have their workers sitting around. They haven't done them a bit of good. We haven't gotten much use out of ours yet, as they've been moving around, but we're making progress.

I'm not really thrilled with my military progress, but we aren't in horrible shape. Oslo will likely fall next turn, as it lost 2 spears and can't pop rush.