SGOTM7 - Team Wacken

[WackenOpenAir]

Defending against a 6 attack unit is not favorable anyway. our core cities need to be defended against the amphibious troops, but the corrupt border cities i would leave empty. The 2 defence is very easy to overcome. Same as with Immortals. attack them, don't defend against them.

First we try to sink their ships, if we fail doing so, I would keep our units outside the border cities, let them take the city and then reconquer it.
Certainly for the cities that risk flipping, keep them empty.

Please transfer the AC we have and all AC we will build to our home island to attack berserks and immortals there. If defence is needed in India, bring swords there. please do not use AC against Impi.

Uskudar should not build a settler, it should start a prebuild for aquaduct. Izmit as well.
why did we do currency before construction .

I had kinda hoped the ICSing would have at least started now.
Rushbuilding a settler in the corrupt towns costs 4 gold per shield, at 1 shield per turn, that is 4 gold per turn. The city build with that settler provides at the very least 3 science from a scientist and 1 gold from wealth.
Of course more is possible if we grow it to support 2 scientists or if we use its food surplus to build more settlers.
For short, rush building those settlers is rewarding. please do so.

Salmonica and Lahore are to close to eachother for core cities. I am not sure what to do with this, but i don't really know what to do with it yet..

 

[Offa]

Please transfer the AC we have and all AC we will build to our home island to attack berserks and immortals there. If defence is needed in India, bring swords there. please do not use AC against Impi.

why did we do currency before construction .

I had kinda hoped the ICSing would have at least started now.

Defence in India has been a pretty desperate affair, with 2 Zulus landing most turns, and calcutta producing an amazing number of enemies. Hopefully we can recapture it soon. Therefore ACs haven't had a chance to leave. I have shored up the defence there a fair bit. I agree Swords would be better, but I have been keeping most of them at home with the hope of invading the Zulus. The defence of India has been very tight, and we should send some more swords over there to help.

I researched currency first with the hope of getting marketplaces, but we haven't had time to build any. Construction is taking 5 turns, why is this important?

I really fancied settling a town on the hill on Zulu's west coast as a base for operations there. and that is why I was making a settler in U.

I don't see how we can hope to ICS India while the island is crawling with AI, and is sparsely defended. Any new towns will just be lost, until we get the military position under control. Destroyed towns will make no money. We can of course change the capapult builds back to settlers.

I hope we get feudalism as a free tech, as with MI we could have a powerful military.

Our capital could produce vet galleys every two turns, and this might be better than producing swords. I don't see the point of building reg galleys.
I think we should try to build a substantial navy as sinking even 4-5 Viking galleys would probably seriously damage their ability to invade us.

Just letting people take cities and retake them sounds good, it is what I intended with Calcutta.

 

[Wotan]

@Wacken and Offa: Yes, lets try to be proactive rather than reactive. I agree with you about building a powerful navy and sink ships rather than just destroying landing units and allow their navies to return to pick up and deliver new units. Besides, sinking a ship might result in almost 100 shields worth of production killed in one blow.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't think we should by building markets any time soon. We will be using our commerce on research possibly for the rest of the game, but at least until we have chivalry. For happiness, markets don't seem worth it yet either. With 4 luxes, it is time to carefully start think about markets.

 

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: Switch Istanbul to Galley so we can pump a few quick vets out. Switch Najan from settler to galley as well, Switch Salonika to galley and MM for 10T (both already have harbors).
Switch Uskudar to sword. It has 2 extra FPT atm, maybe it would be better to mine the local plains to get it to 10spt after corruption rather than build a ‘duct right now.

Finish all the worker moves

IBT: Vikings drop off a spear and sword near Aydin (on the olives), which also causes it to riot

T1: 130BC Near Aydin: Sword kills vSpear (3/4); elite AC kills vSword (2/6)
@ Calcutta: Army kills eImpi (8/13); Army kills vImpi (6/14) and we take back that city with 2 resisting Zulu.
Near Madras: vHorse redlines but dies to vArcher on iron hill (1/4); eHorse kills it

IBT: Zulu land 4 units next to the unprotected town of Bangalore

Istanbul galley -> sword; Edrine sword -> sword; Uskudar sword -> sword

T2: 110BC Near Bangalore: AC kills impi (1/5); AC kills horse (3/5); 2 archers left and no units left to attack.
Near Izmit: vet galley kills Viking vet galley (4/4)

Rush settler in Aydin

IBT: Zulu capture Bangalore
Aydin settler -> settler

T3: 90BC @ Bangalore: eHorse kills archer (4/5); 3/5 AC kills archer and we retake the town + sink a Zulu galley
Near Konya: rGalley sinks against Viking vGalley (4/4)

Hurry barracks in Kafa

IBT: Near Konya: Vikings land MDI and Pike

Construction -> Fued -> Mono (10T, 60%, +2gpt); Kafa rax -> MDI

T4: 70BC Everyone Up Mono and Engineering.
Near Konya: sword kills pike (1/4); elite horse dies to vMDI and promotes it (3/5); vHorse kills it (1/4)

MM specialists to get Mono in 9T @ +4gpt

Istanbul MDI -> galley; Dehli AC; Edrine MDI -> MDI; Izmit MDI -> MDI; Najan experiences WW and riots?

T5: 50BC Unload 10 Swords next to Ngome

Zulu land an archer near Bombay

Uskudar MDI -> MDI

Vikings are building KT

T6: 30BC Near Bombay: eHorse kills archer (5/5)
@Ngome: vSword kills vImpi (1/4); vSword kills vImpi (3/4); vSword kills rImpi (2/4); vSword kills rImpi (3/4); eSword kills rArcher (4/5) and we take the town.

5 remaining swords head inland. Drop off 2 AC’s in Ngome and they head for the mountains. Looks like we can cutoff the northern half of the Zulu empire from the Capitol.

IBT: Near Ngome: eSword defends against Zulu rMDI (2/5); Persia drops off an Immortal
Istanbul galley -> MDI; Bursa Forbidden Palace -> MDI; Iznik MDI -> MDI; Lahore MDI -> MDI; Salonika galley -> galley

Persians building Sun’s

T7: 10BC Near Ngome: vSword dies to horse (2/4); vSword kills horse
Near Bombay: Sword Army kills vImmortal (13/14)

Settler lands next to Ngome so abandon it.


IBT: Vikings land Pike and 2 MDI’s near Bombay; Zulu land an archer, warrior and Impi near Bombay as well
AC in Zulu land defends against Archer (2/5)
Bombay settler -> settler; Edrine MDI -> MDI; Sinop rax -> Pike; Ankara galley -> harbor
Arabs are building KT


T8: 10AD Near Ankara: rGalley dies to Arab vGalley (3/4)
Near Bombay: move AC and game crashes
Reload
Repeat Ankara sinking
Near Bombay: AC kills Impi (3/5); Army kills pike and MDI (7/14); eHorse kills Viking rMDI (5/5), allowing the settler from Bombay to escape N. Also fortifies in town.

Drop off 2 MDI deep in Zulu N, looking for Iron; Found Bolu on the Zulu mainland -> harbor.
Upgrade 2 injured swords in Bangalore

IBT: Vikings drop off an MDI and sword near Bombay; Persians drop off 2 immortals
Zulu warrior attacks Bombay eHorse and loses (4/5) and we get an MGL!

Hope he survives the archer attack.

He does (2/5)!
Zulu drop off another Impi and archer.

Istanbul MDI -> MDI
Persians building KT

T9: 30AD Found Urfa on Gold hill near Dehli. At least we’ll keep the Ivory if Bombay falls.
Near Calcutta: Army kills Immortal (6/14); Army kills Immortal (5/14); MDI retreats Impi (1/3); vGalley dies to vGalley (3/4); chance a vGalley with sword and horse from Incense Hill and win. Drop both off in Bombay; 3/5 AC kills Zulu Archer (2/5)

Leader runs towards Bangalore. Imho, we need an army on Zulu lands or maybe Arab/Persia.

IBT: @Bombay: Persian MDI kills sword (3/4); Persian sword kills horse (2/4); Persia drops off 2 more MDI
In Zululand: Sword defends against MDI (4/4)

Dehli AC; Bursa MDI -> MDI; Uskudar MDI -> MDI; Izmut MDI -> MDI

T10: 50AD MDI movement in Zululand reveals that Zulu must be importing their iron.
Near Lahore: MDI kills 1/3 Impi (4/4);
Near Bombay: Army kills MDI but is down to 2hp so cannot attack with it again this turn; vSword kills MDI (2/4); e*Horse kills MDI (4/5); 2/5 AC kills 2/4 Viking sword, letting the Army jump into Bombay

Leader is in Bangalore, waiting for instruction. Galleys nearby can bring him home or wherever we decide.

Zulu Galley near Bombay will land some junk next turn (hence the location of the MDI).

Stack of 9 units heading for the Zulu core. Can either go for Zimbabwe or go up to Bapedi.

 

[Wotan]

Looks good Grahamiam!
Only thing I have some questions about is the way we improve tiles. I see you are mining tiles in our core. I do believe this to be the wrong approach. It is one thing we want to have as many shields as required for the builds we want to happen. MI @ 40 shields makes 20, 14 or 10 the optimum number of spt in a city. Bursa is now at 20 (after IBT) but you have opted to mines additional tiles and that will deny Bursa the ability to grow since food is now a limiting factor. The surrounding cities do suffer from the food limitations too. Aydin would be able to use an irrigated plains W of Bursa but if it is mined as you are doing now it will only give 1 food thus limiting Aydin. We need to agree on how to manage food vs. shields production otherwise the use of workers will continue to change beteen players on the peam with one player irriagting and the next mining the same tiles. I would like us to agree on a common strategy not everyone improving the same tiles over and over again in an endless struggle to irrigate/mine tiles. This applies to our core.

In the outback of our empire mining should be considered a criminal offence... Anything but food is going to be lost to corruption so mining is just a waste of worker actions.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The first question in this matter is where do we want to build aquaducts.
Uskudar?
Izmit?
Building an aqua here will take 12 turns, then it will take more than 20 turns more to gain back the shields invested. After that, it can start benefitting us.
Also must we consider that 12 turns of no production is will be a very heavy burden now. while it will be payed back after 30-35 turns from now, i rather have the production now than later. On the other hand though, it will also provide exta commerce, not just shields.

And what to do with Lahore - Salonika?
Both are now core cities. They occupy high places on the rank corruption ladder. Yet, they have pretty poor production.

 

[grahamiam]

@Woton, we must constantly MM all tiles in the core due to our tight build. I got Bursa and Istanbul up to 20spt, Edrine can do 14spt after corruption. Aydin was MM'd to the mined mountain to drop significant turns on the settler however it could be MM'd this turn to the irrigated plains for growth.
Also, Bursa should have access to another FP if you MM Konya and irrigate the grass. As far as I can tell, it will be able to make +3fpt after the goat is mined. There's also a FP to work once it grows, so I don't see the problem, as I have not completely shutoff growth and we get more units fast! In the meantime, we make precious MDI's every other turn from that town, which we will need in vast numbers to deal with the muskets that are probably in Arabia/Persia.
Edrine can be MM'd for 14spt by working the mined riverplain, then growth by working an irrigated plain nearby instead of the mined river mountian on the last turn of the MDI build.

Now, exactly where am I mining in the "outback"? I mined around Lahore and Salonika to get more units out of them, quicker. These are core towns! We need MDI and galleys, and the towns have low corruption. You'll note that I irrigated around Dehli, Denizli, and Bangalore. If you look closely, I am irrigating up to Madras as well (over India's mines). I also chopped the settler out of Bombay but the workers had to run away from that area due to landings. Workers just returned during Turn10 to help chop the next settler and irrigate more tiles there.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

military strategical plans
Since our units need to go to Arabia after taking the zulu, I do not want the stack to move northwards. If they end up in the north, it will take 10 turns just to get them home. (unless we build many more galleys)

Therefore, I will create an army. I will fery the army and 2 MDI from the indian island to the Isandhlwana area and meet them up with the 2 MDI from the mountains there. Some extra MDI will be needed to help the army here.

Then, the stack will take Zimbabwe and Ulundi. When the done so, they stand ready to ferry to Arabia. Meanwhile, the army will take the 3 northern town.
The army will take longer, possible quite a bit longer to do this than the stack. I think we can attack arabia while the army is still busy with the last Zulu town.

Some extra reenforcements will probably be needed to both the stack and the army.
Our homeland will be able to provide 2 MDI every turn for the next 3 turns. In total, I think between 10 and 15 reenforcement units will be needed to take the zulu.

Demographical plans
After 10 turns, we will be producing knights, key spt for knights are: 7, 10, 12, 14, 17*, 18, 24. (* with shortrush)

What is important is that we use all ground tiles. Sea tiles are just a bonus.
The lowest corrupted cities get complete priority in tile selection.

Uskudar
Without an aquaduct, it can get to 10 spt. The tiles shared by uskudar and edrine can very well be used by edrine. An aquaduct wont bring it to a real good production.
14 with aquaduct is possible, but only if we take tiles from Istanbul and edrine.
The 2 tiles on the other side of the water need to be mined asap for Uskudar.

Izmit
Aydin’s floodplains are for Izmit.
Without aquaduct, Izmit can get to 10 spt. Same story as with Uskudar, with a aquaduct it can get to 14spt but only when using tiles from Istanbul.

Bursa
With mined wheat, this city can get to 24 spt. Without using the BG between the incense and the olives. That BG is for Edrine. Size 12 needed.

Salonica
All plains need to mined. Then, Salonica can get 10 spt. For this, the cultural gap needs to be closed. Also, both lambs need to be used by Salonica.
This can be done by a library in Izmit, Iznik or Insence hill. I build this library in Iznik as there it will also help getting some ground on the other side of our island.

Istanbul
Can get to 24 spt simply by using all ground tiles available.

Edrine
Will use the left overs to get 14 spt. Size 11 needed.

Sacrificing the 24 spt from Istanbul and doing with 18 there will enable Edrine to go from 14 to 17 and Izmit and Uskudar to go from 10 to 14 with an aquaduct. So together, that means paying 6spt to get 10 in return. The cost however is 2 aquaducts. 200 shields to get 4spt in return is an investment that takes too long to repay. Therefore, I decide to do without aquaducts in Izmit and Uskudar. The commercial value of the growth after aquaduct is insignificant to the production value to me. I am not planning to research past chivalry.

My worker actions will be targeted to get these plans accomplished.

To get cities to the needed size by the time we have chivalry, i might add some workers to them. If needed, these workers i will build in corrupt cities.

Now dinner, then relaxing, then playing.

 

[Offa]

After we get chivalry we will presumably stop research? In that case we can plan to upgrade horse to knights, which would change the optimum number of shields for towns, eg 15 spt would be a good figure.

Or do we want to research all the way to mil trad? Not impossible as it looks like capturing the Library is going to take a long time.

 

[grahamiam]

I am not planning to research past chivalry.

might want to think about research engineering. that river in India is a pain. should be interesting, playing AW Diety as the Ottomans without their mighty Sip's

 

[WackenOpenAir]

engineering would be a good option yes. That decision only needs to be made after my turnset though.
Researching all the way to MT is indeed possible, but by the time we get there, we should be close to world domination i think.

If we do not win with knights, the least we should do is conquer TGL with them. Hopefully though, we will win with knights.

I have thought about the upgrading thing, but i don't think we will have the funds to do this on a really big scale for the coming while. 30spt wont even be possible in any city, so those that can get 24 better make knights in 3 turns than horses in 2. Other cities maybe could produce some horses when needed.

First however, we have the few horses that we have now to upgrade, and i may build a few just before we get to chivalry. That should be enough to spend our money on for a turnset or 2.

After Zululand is ICSed. we should have a nice income, then i think our 10 spt cities could go produce horses for upgrading.

10 turns from now, the decision on research can be made final though. That is when we will have chivalry, and then we will know how well our Zulu war is going.

 

[Wotan]

Now, exactly where am I mining in the "outback"?

I did not intend to "blame" you for any such activity. I am sorry if my post came across as questioning your turn set. That was not my intention. It was a "general question" to the whole team about what we are to do and not to do. I used an example from your turn with mining around Bursa but was trying to get a general discussion going about how we should manage tiles in our empire. I am sorry if my discussions rub people the wrong way, it might have to do with english not being my first language but please try to look past the words as they are used and try to understand what I am trying to say. I know this is much to ask but I assure you I did not try to say you did something wrong. I have no idea what happened during your turns in the "outback", I know from Wackens comments on Dmans turns he had mined tiles around Delhi.
If I had been less than happy with your turn set I wouldn't have started the post with "Looks good Grahamiam!", would I?

 

[grahamiam]

If I had been less than happy with your turn set I wouldn't have started the post with "Looks good Grahamiam!", would I?

ok, apologies all around my mining the core will net us about 18 MDI in the next 10 turns if we can't get chivalry by then. that's still a pretty big

@WOA: Army plan for the Zulu sounds logical, good luck

 

[WackenOpenAir]

pre turn
A lot of settlers and workers will be needed soon. I change catapults to settlers and I will skim workers from corrupt cities stuck at size6.

Change catapults to settlers.
Change Iznik to Library.
Change Ankara to Worker.
Change Bangalore to Worker.
Micro Izmit to 10 spt.
Rushbuild settler in Konya.

turn1:
IBT: one of the MDI in the northern zulu mountains is killed. (0-1)

Istanbul: MDI->MDI.
Edrine: MDI->MDI.
Konya: Settler->Worker.
Kafa: MDI->Worker.
Ankara: Worker->Worker.
Mugla: Settler->Settler.

MDI kills Impi (1-1).
eSword kills archer (2-1, 1ev).

turn2:

Bursa: MDI->MDI.
Bingol founded. -> Worker.

turn3:
A zulu MDI lands near Denizli.

Istanbul: MDI->MDI.
Bangalore: Worker->Worker.
Incense hill: MDI->Worker.
Lahore: MDI->Worker.
Kafa: Worker->MDI.

eSword kills archer(3-1, 2ev)
eSword kills MDI(4-1, 3ev)
AC kills MDI(5-1)

turn4:
An arab archer lands near

Edrine: MDI->MDI.
Bursa: MDI->MDI.
Iznik : Library->MDI.
Uskudar: MDI->MDI.
Izmit : MDI->MDI.
Salonica: Galley->Galley.

Army kills impi, losing 5 hp.


turn5:
IBT: Archer takes Madras.

Istanbul: MDI->MDI.
Lahore: Worker->Worker.
Ankara: Worker->Catapult.
Retake Madras->Settler.

Capture Isandhlwana at the cost of 1 MDI. (7-2)
Capture Zimbabwe it was defended by 6 Impi. We lose 3 MDI and 1 sword in the attack. (13-6)
We control ToA.
Our AC attacks an MDI in the open and loses. (13-7)
Sword finishes of the MDI (14-7)

turn6:
MDI attacks our sword and loses (15-7)
MDI attacks kills our sword (15-8)

Bursa: MDI->MDI.
Incense hill : Worker->MDI.
Urfa: Worker->Settler.

Elite sword kills MDI (16-8, 4ev)
It is not damaged, so I cannot protect it from attack with a veteran unit (yes sometimes one actually wants their units to be damaged J)

I wont leave a single unit in Zimbabwe, there is no barracks anyway, so all units stand next to the city.

turn7:
IBT: I am starting to think the AI is having some sail around our island in 80 days championship or something, but still nothing happens.
The americs have build the knights templar !

Istanbul: MDI->MDI.
As I park our army next to Intombe I see it is defended by a KNIGHT !

turn8:
IBT: Imortal lands near Izmit.
Knight moves out of Intombe onto a mountain.

Edrine: MDI->Horse.
Bursa: MDI-MDI.
Uskudar : MDI-Horse.
Izmit: MDI->Horse.
Lahore: Worker->Horse.
Sinop: Horse->Horse.
Salonica: Galley->Galley.

MDI kills knight (17-8)
Army conquers Intombe (19-8) We now have a 4th luxury connected !
MDI kills Immortal (20-8)

There are now enough units in zululand to take it all. No more need to be ferried there.

turn9:
IBT: 3 Immortals land near Aydin.
Chivalry is ready, I set science to engineering. Not yet sure what the plans will be.
Najran has flipped, it was empty but had almost finished a Galley. They get a pike in it.

Istanbul: MDI->Knight.
Aydin: Settler->Catapult.

The horse I parked south of Najran attacks the city and damages a pike. There are 2 pikes in it. (20-9)
MDI kills archer (21-9)

Horse attacks Immortal and loses. (21-10)
Horse attacks Immortal and retreats.
Sword kills Immortal (22-10)
eAC kills Immortal (23-10)
one Immortal is remaining with 2 hp, I leave Aydin open to be captured and move a healthy MDI in position to retake it.

turn10:
IBT: Aydin is taken by the Persians.
An archer and a longbow land near Zimbabwe.
A Horse and Longbow land near Incense hill.

I made a mistake and didn’t solve happiness issues after moving out an MP from Bursa.

Recapture Aydin(24-10)
AC kills archer and becomes elite(25-10)

2 AC stand in Salonica to be ferried to our home island and retake Incense hill.

About the micromanagement:
Bursa and Istanbul are now using the correct tiles for their 24 spt.
Izmit has its 10 spt.
Uskudar is using the correct tiles, but the one with the workers on it needs to be mined for its 10 spt.
Salonica is using the right tiles, the last one for 10 spt is being mined
Unfortunately I made a mis calculation, and Edrine cannot get 14 spt. I calculated to mine the wheat from bursa, but that is not possible. Therefore, bursa needs the BG I wanted to use for Edrine.
Edrine is now using all tiles it can have. 2 of them need to be irrigated for it not to starve. The one that is now being irrigated will be done next turn, reducing the shortage to 1. This leaves just enough time to irrigate another Before it starves.
Lahore could use some more mining.

The zulu have another city elsewhere. We stand ready to take them off their island, but we cannot destroy them. This is of course very unfortunate.

The Galleys are moving south to ferry the units to Arabia.

I left ferries in the north to bring workers from India to Zululand, we should immeadiately start to irrigate from the river northwards. With a little group of workers irrigating tiles along the road, we should have water in Isandhlwana in a minute.

Note, some units stand fortified, since I never use spacebar on a unit, I always fortify them if I plan not to use the rest of their movement.

 

[Wotan]

Good kill ratio, Wacken.

I guess we are to skip Xevious since it is only the 6th today and he said he could not play until after the 11th. In that case: I got it!

Today is a national holiday in Sweden so I am at home and able to play so if noone objects to skipping Xevious I will start playing in a few hours. The plan seems to be pretty clear, try to find the final Zulu town and take out Arabia!

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, i think we can swich or skip Xevious for now.

 

[grahamiam]

no objections from me. good luck!

 

[grahamiam]

ah, to get the post count up (and to refresh my memory), i did a quick review the status of our opponents:

Other info:
F10 shows the following opponents:
-Indians -> DEAD

-Zulu -> Down to 3 towns/cities (2 on thier main island)
-Arabs next
-Persians next
-Vikings
-Americans (note: Have GLib)

 

[dmanakho]

Have had a busy weekend and busy monday at work.
Good job Wacken! Time for Wotan to kill Zulus off..

Although it is annoying when we keep losing and retaking cities...
I wish there was a prescription against it.