SGOTM8 - klarius

[Ciceronian]

Sorry for forgetting to mention it, I wanted to pass on to Megalou actually so we can lay the blame on him.

 

[Northern Pike]

Actually, I'm up, since this is where I entered the rotation when I became able to play.

 

[Northern Pike]

Six of our Chinese cites are at size one at the moment. Our options for the gift-and-retake operation with the Vikings are therefore:


1A. Give the Vikings six cities (since Shanghai is about to reach size two), worth a total of fifteen population points, in two turns.

1B. As above, except with the island cities withheld as Klarius would like, so that we'd be giving four cities worth eleven PP.

2A. Wait seven turns for population growth, and then give the Vikings ten cities worth at least 23 PP.

2B. As above, but with island cities again withheld, so that we'd be giving seven cities worth at least seventeen PP.


I think we can rule out 1B, because it's unlikely that that degree of loss would convince the Vikings to give up a homeland city of at least size four. My preference would be 2A, because this is a turning point in the game and we should make an absolute commitment to this manouevre if we're going to do it at all. But I won't play until the rest of you have had a chance to give your opinions.

I'd also like to hear what the team thinks about whether we should recruit allies for our war with the Vikings. My first thought is that we shouldn't, since we'll want to be free to end the war the moment the Vikings will talk. But if our having allies would do more to influence the Vikings than I'm assuming, let me know.

 

[Ronald]

Actually, I'm up, since this is where I entered the rotation when I became able to play.

Sorry, now we can blame you

 

[Ronald]

1A. Give the Vikings six cities (since Shanghai is about to reach size two), worth a total of fifteen population points, in two turns.

1B. As above, except with the island cities withheld as Klarius would like, so that we'd be giving four cities worth eleven PP.

2A. Wait seven turns for population growth, and then give the Vikings ten cities worth at least 23 PP.

2B. As above, but with island cities again withheld, so that we'd be giving seven cities worth at least seventeen PP.

I'd also like to hear what the team thinks about whether we should recruit allies for our war with the Vikings. My first thought is that we shouldn't, since we'll want to be free to end the war the moment the Vikings will talk. But if our having allies would do more to influence the Vikings than I'm assuming, let me know.

I don't think we will get a size 4 city with any of the options. It strange for me, that the Vikings don't settle the two empty islands between them and us.
The moment they do, they have to build settlers and hopefully there is a size 1 or 2 city at their homeland plus the newly found city on the island.
If we don't get a large city (I have to admit that I have never tried it), we should postpone the war untill they build ne cities on the islands to get them. The invasion of their home continent ha sthen to wait untill we have flight. (Gifting cities + bombardment to reduce the city size.

Allies or not? How severe is the reputation hit when we give peace before the alliances expire? (can this also be found in CivAssist2 ). Usually in a conquest game I don't care much about my reputation, but here I would at like to stay on good terms since our overseas colonies are so vulnerable.

 

[Megalou]

I vote for 1A, but I confess I have hever tried anything so massive as 2A. We don't know when they will build settlers so there is no reason beside 2A to postpone the war. Or do you mean we can declare when they have a size 2 or 3 and edit: make peace before they grow? Maybe. They are still despotic (=low on food)? I can't open saves at work.

Disaster would be losing Ceasaria, but it shouldn't be hard to get a new town north of Japan. Our core needs to get some longbows back from China.

 

[Ronald]

Or do you mean we can declare when they have a size 2 or 3 and declare before they grow? Maybe. They are still despotic (=low on food)? I can't open saves at work.

That's what I meant

 

[Megalou]

He-he... Look at our territory graph. Culture looks good too in comparison. I think we are pretty much ready for marketplaces and univerities. Half of our longbowmen should be able to protect against the Vikings, plus the horsemen for real emergencies...

It's great that we got Tatung. Those spices are precious.

Oh and yes, I'll take the full blame. As I pointed out somewhere you don't know where I live.

Admittedly, things don't look very good in Scandinavia. All their mainland towns have expanded, which I believe is roughly like increasing their size by 2 treaty-wise. But a settler in Stavanger and it should be possible. We can forget about Reykjavik because of the iron source, I fear.

klarius, why are you putting so much emphasis on harbours? I'm only asking, but Newcastle is starting to feel a cultural pressure from England so don't you think a courthouse is a long term necessity?

 

[klarius]

We need harbours because otherwise the cities don't share our luxes and cannot grow. I want them to grow and build settlers soon, so we have more than one city on every island.
A temple would also be a good thing to have to push back borders.
Courthouses don't help against flipping, they make sense only if the cities grow big enough that the corruption reduction gives a benefit.

 

[Megalou]

Courthouses don't help against flipping,...

You've got to be kidding. Either that or I've misseed something in the transition from PTW to C3C.

 

[Northern Pike]

320 AD, end of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

190 (0): We seem to agree that there isn't much hope of getting a size-four Viking city with an immediate gift-and-retake. So I'll keep an eye out for settler builds by the Vikings, while putting us in position to do a large GAR at short notice.

Ciceronian, you have our units deployed so that we won't lose anything if Chinese cities flip, which is good, but you may not realize that towns with no garrison will never come out of resistance--even in peacetime.

I rush a harbour in Tatung, and a worker in Shantung.

I also rush the two settlers we're building, so that we can carry out a large GAR as soon as possible without involving overseas cities.

Four city improvements complete.


210 (1): I rush a temple in Newcastle.


250 (3): We found Dallas between Beijing and Shanghai.

Chicago completes its aqueduct.


260 (4): I rush Caesaraugusta's temple and Byzantium's harbour.


270 (5): It's time to renew our luxury deals, so we send Banking to the Romans for silks, furs, 60 gpt, 23 gold, and their WM (full value). We then let the Greeks have Banking for wines, 57 gold, 7 gpt, and their WM, mostly to keep them in the game as research partners.

The Romans and the English are at war.

Miami completes its library, and New Orleans its harbour.


280 (6): We found Lubbock between Hangchow and Tsingtao.

The Romans build the Temple of Artemis.


290 (7): We rush Caesaraugusta's harbour, and a temple in Tatung.

Gunpowder --> Chemistry. We have one saltpetre, near New York.


300 (8): The Romans have taken York from the English--with an invasion force of one MDI, I think.

Rome and England make peace.


310 (9): We defeat the attack of a barbarian horseman on Tatung Island (1-0).

Atlanta completes its harbour.


320 (10): Not much.

 

[Northern Pike]

Basically, nothing has happened and nothing has changed. The Vikings didn't found a single city this round, and I've seen no clear evidence that they're building settlers. Copenhagen has gone from six PP to four, but it was at five in the middle of the sequence. Reykjavik has fallen from size four to size three, but since it has both iron and saltpetre, it looks like an impossible target for our purposes.

The Chinese haven't settled the spot we created for them, either.

We're in a good position to do a large-scale gift-and-retake when and if we want to, anyway. In principle, we could give away Chengdu, Nanking, Lubbock, Tsingtao, and the six northernmost cities we hold on our continent, all without losing any of our precious overseas population points.

I haven't done it yet, so as to leave the next player's options open, but almost certainly we should cash-rush a settler in Tatung (immediately, before pressing Enter) and use it to claim more territory on that island. We'll be able to cash-rush a settler in Byzantium in five turns, too. We'll need to be careful with the settler on Tatung Island, since barbs are roaming around.

We could also fill in the space between Neapolis and Caesarea with a settler rushed in Caesaraugusta, if we want.

We're about to gain access to Tatung's spices with a cultural expansion, so we don't need to settle near Tatung for that reason.

Apart from the settlers, the builds I've got going in our overseas towns are just suggestions, and you should feel free to change them.

Tsingtao should be micromanaged for maximum population growth after it produces its next worker.

I've moved a few longbowmen south to our heartland in preparation for a possible Viking war.

 

[Northern Pike]

Tatung Island:

 

[Megalou]

Very nice play, NP! Great news about York, too. Newcastle is now completely free of cultural pressure, and is probably exerting some itself on York. Beijing too is free from pressure.

I would like to have the team's opinion on the following:

* Waiting 1 turn then giving the maximum no of corrupt towns available to Scandinavia and allying everyone against them. Could it make them lose some of their momentum? Note that they don't have Invention yet.

* Selling Gunpowder. The above alliances would be in the bargain, but no cash or maps from the AI - only gpt - because we may have to break the alliances.

*Moving the southenmost warrior to the colony, risking barb camps forming. Moving the horsemen to Seattle. (Note the Scandinavian galley.) Moving the longbowmen into core cities.

*Increasing science to 90%. (gpt would be +19)

* Signing ROP with Japan.

* Hurrying barracks in Caesaraugusta within a few turns and upgrading the spearman on the interturn.

* Disbanding all "continental" warriors (except the one protecting the colony) right after the gifting scam. We are currently paying 14 gpt in unit upkeep.

*Building some more horsemen, eg in Chicago and Boston.

*Copernicus' is only 16 or 17 turns away. We can:
1. Maximize research and try to take Athens in 16 turns.
2. Slow down Copernicus'.
3. Change our goal to Bach's or Smith's. Those would take 18-20 turns longer. Or maybe Magellan's

I think no 2 is preferable. We can get up to 34 gpt from Greece for Gunpowder so that trade should run its course.

Renewal of the wine trade from Greece I will do by selling luxuries to them. No cash will be involved so that we protect our rep a bit.

 

[Megalou]

A temple would also be a good thing to have to push back borders.
Courthouses don't help against flipping, they make sense only if the cities grow big enough that the corruption reduction gives a benefit.

Looks like the temples are enough, but please comment on the courthouses and the civiliopedia text "makes the city more resistant to propaganda." You mean it only works against spies?

 

[Ronald]

Looks like the temples are enough, but please comment on the courthouses and the civiliopedia text "makes the city more resistant to propaganda." You mean it only works against spies?

That is my understanding

 

[Ronald]

* Waiting 1 turn then giving the maximum no of corrupt towns available to Scandinavia and allying everyone against them. Could it make them lose some of their momentum? Note that they don't have Invention yet.

* Selling Gunpowder. The above alliances would be in the bargain, but no cash or maps from the AI - only gpt - because we may have to break the alliances.

*Moving the southenmost warrior to the colony, risking barb camps forming. Moving the horsemen to Seattle. (Note the Scandinavian galley.) Moving the longbowmen into core cities.

*Increasing science to 90%. (gpt would be +19)

* Signing ROP with Japan.

* Hurrying barracks in Caesaraugusta within a few turns and upgrading the spearman on the interturn.

* Disbanding all "continental" warriors (except the one protecting the colony) right after the gifting scam. We are currently paying 14 gpt in unit upkeep.

*Building some more horsemen, eg in Chicago and Boston.

*Copernicus' is only 16 or 17 turns away. We can:
1. Maximize research and try to take Athens in 16 turns.
2. Slow down Copernicus'.
3. Change our goal to Bach's or Smith's. Those would take 18-20 turns longer. Or maybe Magellan's

I think no 2 is preferable. We can get up to 34 gpt from Greece for Gunpowder so that trade should run its course.

Renewal of the wine trade from Greece I will do by selling luxuries to them. No cash will be involved so that we protect our rep a bit.

No 2 is fine with me, are you going to play until 450 AD (to get to the normal turns)?

Have fun !

 

[Northern Pike]

Allying everyone against the Vikings--the problem here is that none of us seem to be sure how much this would incline the Vikings to make concessions in a peace treaty. Would it add anything meaningful to the motivational effect of ten lost cities? Klarius?

Selling Gunpowder--all right if necessary as part of a grand design to form anti-Viking alliances, I suppose. In itself I don't much like the idea, unless there's more gold in circulation out there than I think.

I wouldn't risk the return of barbs to add one warrior to our other defenses. That aside, by all means deploy our slim forces in the core as you see fit. I kept them out of coastal cities because they'd be slaughtered by Berserkers, but as you point out, the Vikings don't have them yet.

Science to 90%--basically fine, although I think we have to find the gold to rush two overseas settlers, at an absolute minimum.

RoP with Japan--sure.

Barracks in Caesaraugusta, and upgrade--good in principle, but a fairly expensive little project (300+ gold). Your call.

I violently disagree with the disbanding fetish, both generally and in this particular case. The gift-and-retake procedure may leave us needing garrisons for cities with enemy populations all through the game, and the only defense we'll have against Berserker attacks on our coastal cities until the IA will be to hold them with a lot of units, among other factors.

More horsemen--sure. You could switch Washington to military builds without loss of shields, I believe.

Please check this since I'm not looking at the save, but I believe you're discussing a non-problem in connection with Copernicus. Copernicus is Expansionist, we hold the Pyramids which are Industrious--there's our GA.

Actually, I don't think the wines renewal will come up in your round, unless you play fifteen turns or so.

 

[Megalou]

Copernicus' was our choice of wonder to trigger our golden age. Because we *will* capture Colossus from Greece, we can then build any wonder to trigger Golden Age. But we must have both Pyramids and Colossus the moment we complete it in New York. We should have a wonder that is useful.

...are you going to play until 450 AD (to get to the normal turns)?

Dunno. Maybe there will be a natural break somewhere in 10-13 turns or something to discuss in detail.

Allying everyone against the Vikings--the problem here is that none of us seem to be sure how much this would incline the Vikings to make concessions in a peace treaty. Would it add anything meaningful to the motivational effect of ten lost cities?

If someone razes a Scandinavian town the Viking would have to build a new 1. It's a bit unlikely but certainly not impossible looking at what happened to York.

Even if a town is captured and not razed, it will lose 2 citizens if Scandinavia take it back. The only thing that worries me about the alliances is the big war happiness the Vikings get.

I violently disagree with the disbanding fetish, both generally and in this particular case. The gift-and-retake procedure may leave us needing garrisons for cities with enemy populations all through the game, and the only defense we'll have against Berserker attacks on our coastal cities until the IA will be to hold them with a lot of units, among other factors.

OK I'll bow to anger , although in my view it's unlikely that the berserks will reach us. Rule of thumb 2 units per coastal town then? When we get enough horsemen we can protect with them and get rid of the warriors?

I wouldn't risk the return of barbs to add one warrior to our other defenses.

OK, but I'll move him one step NE. All tiles will still be lit up thanks to the Seattle expansion.

Barracks in Caesaraugusta, and upgrade--good in principle, but a fairly expensive little project (300+ gold).

Yes indeed. But if it's too expensive to do soon then I will want to build a warrior before the barracks. And I promise not to disband him either.

Selling Gunpowder--all right if necessary as part of a grand design to form anti-Viking alliances, I suppose. In itself I don't much like the idea...

They will all get GunP before we attack them anyway and every nickel can be put to good use. With faster science we will have Chemistry in 4t and we can trade that for Astronomy. But OK, it is a step on the way to riflemen for the AI and I'm not quite sure about this.

Klarius?

Yes, where are you? We need you.

We should perhaps also appoint a scribe for the spoiler. But I don't think we should give away our special gifting tactics. Some teams know about this trick anyway, sure, but we are in a competition after all and these tactics will serve almost as well in the MA as in the AA. I suggest we write for one spoiler thread each starting with klarius and if someone doesn't want to write one then the honour goes to the next person in the playlist.

I'll play my turns tonight or tomorrow night.