SGOTM8 - Wacken
- Thread starter AlanH
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lurker's comment: And for the lurkers.. the way you make the 'lurkers comment' thing is simply by placing [ delurk ] ... [ / delurk ] (without the spaces) around your text 
I am pleased to accept lurkers to our thread, and it is nice to know of your existence.
I think bringing up the bomber issue about now is worthwhile, as we will have to decide fairly soon how many bombers to build. For myself I would advocate building relatively few, starting as soon as we get flight, and switching to tanks ASAP. I didn't realize there was so much misunderstanding swishing around about bombers and airstrips. However, it seems to me that 50 tanks can achieve a lot more a lot faster than 50 bombers. The bombers could slowly destroy cities, but the AI should have no way of coping with tanks. Paratroops appear almost pointless apart from picking off tiny islands, which might be available in peace deals anyway.
The technique is:
1 Get a base on an AI infested island either by extorting a town for peace, or (later on) dropping a settler and worker by helicopter.
2 Build an airstrip
3 Land proper troops: cav and tanks. Only one airstrip on the AI island is needed
4 clear out the infestation
5 use captured workers to build more airstrips so the invasion force can move on
One use of bombers is that they might help persuade the AI to give us a town for peace: an error on their part
.
I think bringing up the bomber issue about now is worthwhile, as we will have to decide fairly soon how many bombers to build. For myself I would advocate building relatively few, starting as soon as we get flight, and switching to tanks ASAP. I didn't realize there was so much misunderstanding swishing around about bombers and airstrips. However, it seems to me that 50 tanks can achieve a lot more a lot faster than 50 bombers. The bombers could slowly destroy cities, but the AI should have no way of coping with tanks. Paratroops appear almost pointless apart from picking off tiny islands, which might be available in peace deals anyway.
The technique is:
1 Get a base on an AI infested island either by extorting a town for peace, or (later on) dropping a settler and worker by helicopter.
2 Build an airstrip
3 Land proper troops: cav and tanks. Only one airstrip on the AI island is needed
4 clear out the infestation
5 use captured workers to build more airstrips so the invasion force can move on
One use of bombers is that they might help persuade the AI to give us a town for peace: an error on their part
.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I have also been thinking about it a bit.
The main reason i dislike ground troops is that they lose so much time moving and healing. However, much of that can be solved by ROP rape.
We need a foothold on the target island and a ROP.
We spread the ground units over the island in 1 or 2 turns.
We capture everything and the very same turn, the slaves are turned into airstrips to move to another island.
This means we can take an island and transport to the next one in 3 turns.
The first issue is to get a city and an ROP. Getting a city requires war and bombardment. ROP can be made directly after the peace deal. However, we are most likely to get these things while our reputation is still ok. So i think we should first aim to get those cities on other islands. Unfortunately, Flight and bombers are most likely needed to get these cities.
We need cities on as many islands as possible.
When we cary out this attack, the bombers can combine well with the ROP rape as they can greatly reduce the number of needed units for the rape. Normally we would need a number of units for every city that provides 95% capture certainty. With bombers however, we can make do with 80% or so.
Instead of taking cities one by one, we do 1 or 2 attacks on all cities. Then, we use the bombers to aid those cities that had the worst RNG luck to make up for that. We do another 1 or 2 attacks, and if we still have bombers, we again bomb those cities that had the worst RNG luck now.
This way we greatly reduce the RNG factor and we will need much less units to have an almost certain capture.
Of course, we can use investigate city to check the defences if we have money for that. After AF, we certainly have the money for this.
Now suppose we agree on this, and we are gonna focus more on ground units, we still have the question remaining: Dam or Flight.
First question i have here is probably best answered by offa using his tool: What is better to use tanks, or double the number of cavalry units. Defenders i think are expected to be mostly muskets with city and fortify bonus for a total of 7 defence.
Next, we can look at the bigger picture. If we go flight first, we have a relatively small force to attack with. Way too small for an ROP rape. We would use the cavalry in a normal attack in the beginning. This leaves our reputation intact, allowing us to meanwhile bomb and get cities from other enemies.
However, with flight first, we also have motorized a significant bit later. We would be forced to build about 50 bombers before we can build tanks. This delays our ROP rape options.
At turn 34 we would have:
20 cav, 65 bombers.
By that time, our cavs are probably lost already in the conquest of the first enemy island. Probably the second island is bombed quite a bit now and ready for conquest by the soon to be tanks.
With the DAM first, we have a cavarly force capable of conquering an island by ROP rape the moment we have flight. This however will ruin our reputation and makes it more difficult to get cities on other islands. Not impossible though. In the 12 turns between flight and AF, we could start bombing some enemies to get cities from them. We should be at war with these enemies for a while already so that they are already willing to talk when we get flight.
12 turns probably should be enough to ROP rape an opponent and get a complete island with our cavalry by turn 34. So our conquest is probably at the same level here as when we choose flight first.
At turn 34 now, we have: 39 cavs, 30 bombers, 25 tanks, 20 upgradable.
I think if we go ground units, i prefer DAM.
The main reason i dislike ground troops is that they lose so much time moving and healing. However, much of that can be solved by ROP rape.
We need a foothold on the target island and a ROP.
We spread the ground units over the island in 1 or 2 turns.
We capture everything and the very same turn, the slaves are turned into airstrips to move to another island.
This means we can take an island and transport to the next one in 3 turns.
The first issue is to get a city and an ROP. Getting a city requires war and bombardment. ROP can be made directly after the peace deal. However, we are most likely to get these things while our reputation is still ok. So i think we should first aim to get those cities on other islands. Unfortunately, Flight and bombers are most likely needed to get these cities.
We need cities on as many islands as possible.
When we cary out this attack, the bombers can combine well with the ROP rape as they can greatly reduce the number of needed units for the rape. Normally we would need a number of units for every city that provides 95% capture certainty. With bombers however, we can make do with 80% or so.
Instead of taking cities one by one, we do 1 or 2 attacks on all cities. Then, we use the bombers to aid those cities that had the worst RNG luck to make up for that. We do another 1 or 2 attacks, and if we still have bombers, we again bomb those cities that had the worst RNG luck now.
This way we greatly reduce the RNG factor and we will need much less units to have an almost certain capture.
Of course, we can use investigate city to check the defences if we have money for that. After AF, we certainly have the money for this.
Now suppose we agree on this, and we are gonna focus more on ground units, we still have the question remaining: Dam or Flight.
First question i have here is probably best answered by offa using his tool: What is better to use tanks, or double the number of cavalry units. Defenders i think are expected to be mostly muskets with city and fortify bonus for a total of 7 defence.
Next, we can look at the bigger picture. If we go flight first, we have a relatively small force to attack with. Way too small for an ROP rape. We would use the cavalry in a normal attack in the beginning. This leaves our reputation intact, allowing us to meanwhile bomb and get cities from other enemies.
However, with flight first, we also have motorized a significant bit later. We would be forced to build about 50 bombers before we can build tanks. This delays our ROP rape options.
At turn 34 we would have:
20 cav, 65 bombers.
By that time, our cavs are probably lost already in the conquest of the first enemy island. Probably the second island is bombed quite a bit now and ready for conquest by the soon to be tanks.
With the DAM first, we have a cavarly force capable of conquering an island by ROP rape the moment we have flight. This however will ruin our reputation and makes it more difficult to get cities on other islands. Not impossible though. In the 12 turns between flight and AF, we could start bombing some enemies to get cities from them. We should be at war with these enemies for a while already so that they are already willing to talk when we get flight.
12 turns probably should be enough to ROP rape an opponent and get a complete island with our cavalry by turn 34. So our conquest is probably at the same level here as when we choose flight first.
At turn 34 now, we have: 39 cavs, 30 bombers, 25 tanks, 20 upgradable.
I think if we go ground units, i prefer DAM.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
From the Vikings we want Stavanger and Molde.
From Rome we want Palmyra and Lugdunum
Rome and Japan i don't expect to give us any cities though. Very likely we can only get one on englisch ground.
Infrastructure in england isn't all that, but we could ROP rape them i think. Will take some turns to get them in place.
For more ROP rape, we probably have to make offensive cities after AF, then make peace and include ROP in the peace deal.
From Rome we want Palmyra and Lugdunum
Rome and Japan i don't expect to give us any cities though. Very likely we can only get one on englisch ground.
Infrastructure in england isn't all that, but we could ROP rape them i think. Will take some turns to get them in place.
For more ROP rape, we probably have to make offensive cities after AF, then make peace and include ROP in the peace deal.
I haven't got my simulator here so these are just general comments.
Tanks seem overwhelmingly strong v rifles or weaker units. They probably have a good chance of killing a defender, only losing 1 or 0 HP, and then killing another defender next turn without waiting to heal: I could check the stats on this though.
As you say Wacken, the problem with tanks is the relatively low movement, especially as the AI will have large cultural borders. Therefore ROPs would be very helpful. Cavalry would be helpful to clear out peripheral hard to reach but lightly defended towns.
As Japan and Rome share an island, we could help ourselves here. For example, declare v Rome, bomb them, ally and ROP with Japs. Then when we get 'Copters we could plant towns/airstrips on Rome. (even better if we could extort a town for peace before AF). We would be then able to hopefully get an ROP with Rome in a peace treaty, and ROP rape Japan using our bases in Rome.
If we don't get ROPs helicopters could help by dropping settler/worker/defender combis. The settler could build a town deep in AI land, the worker build an airstrip, and then tanks etc could be flown in, bypassing cultural borders. It would be a legit tactic I think. just bear in mind that 'copters have a fairly short range, and have to start their missions from one of our towns.
Tanks seem overwhelmingly strong v rifles or weaker units. They probably have a good chance of killing a defender, only losing 1 or 0 HP, and then killing another defender next turn without waiting to heal: I could check the stats on this though.
As you say Wacken, the problem with tanks is the relatively low movement, especially as the AI will have large cultural borders. Therefore ROPs would be very helpful. Cavalry would be helpful to clear out peripheral hard to reach but lightly defended towns.
As Japan and Rome share an island, we could help ourselves here. For example, declare v Rome, bomb them, ally and ROP with Japs. Then when we get 'Copters we could plant towns/airstrips on Rome. (even better if we could extort a town for peace before AF). We would be then able to hopefully get an ROP with Rome in a peace treaty, and ROP rape Japan using our bases in Rome.
If we don't get ROPs helicopters could help by dropping settler/worker/defender combis. The settler could build a town deep in AI land, the worker build an airstrip, and then tanks etc could be flown in, bypassing cultural borders. It would be a legit tactic I think. just bear in mind that 'copters have a fairly short range, and have to start their missions from one of our towns.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
I vote Hoover's Dam 1st. Let's roll 
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Offa said:
That sounds good, but we also want a city on their own island. On their own island will be a lot harder to get. If they are willing to give a city on their own island, i think we should take that.
We could then start taking scandinavia, get a free city from them on English ground later and then take england.
Scandinavia is better suited to be taken by cavalry alone as they will probably be defended by pikes. Meanwhile, england can improve their infrastructure to prepare for our invasion.
Just killing units they land on our island will also help getting a city from them. We can do this easilly as long as they don't have berserkers.
ok... now it looks more or less clear and i will go after Hoover's using the original plan 3 pages back.
Will see what i can do with Vikings.
I am not worried about future RoPs... We really want to make RoP with each and every AIs even before we start our 1st major war. If we play our cards right our conquest will be over or almost over within those 20 turns so we don't want to worry about reputation or re-newing RoPs.
Will see what i can do with Vikings.
I am not worried about future RoPs... We really want to make RoP with each and every AIs even before we start our 1st major war. If we play our cards right our conquest will be over or almost over within those 20 turns so we don't want to worry about reputation or re-newing RoPs.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
dmanakho said:
Hold your ROP's please.
The problem with the ROP's is the following:
If we don't have a city yet on their island, getting a city there will require war. Either we need war to get a city for free, or we incite a war by settling on their territory.
The ROP must be made after that Initial war.
This is of course not yet an issue now, but it will be important that we time our wars and ROP's carefully.
I am not sure about what the AI is willing to give in certain situations anymore. I am not sure anymore if one ROP rape means that we will never get another ROP again.
Yes, let's party.
There is no clear winner in the flight/hoover issue so hoover is OK. The issue with this game is more likely to be if another team managed to steal 20 turns on us somewhere in late ancient age/early middle ages (when we stopped research waiting for the FP), or if they found a cheeky way to conquer without research (eg extortion). Other than that it is hard to see much slack in our methods.
There is no clear winner in the flight/hoover issue so hoover is OK. The issue with this game is more likely to be if another team managed to steal 20 turns on us somewhere in late ancient age/early middle ages (when we stopped research waiting for the FP), or if they found a cheeky way to conquer without research (eg extortion). Other than that it is hard to see much slack in our methods.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Yep, we must hope that missing the slingshot didn't do us too much damage.
And we must hope that our investment is paying of well. No way any of them is gonna have 900 science per turn if they did not get lucky with an early leader to build the same FP we did without the cost of the investment.
It could still be a close call however. I do think our FP investment was worthy, but we must make up for the missed slingshot. If we did well enough for that remains a question.
PS: look at Klarius territory graph. Can't enjoy the look of that. Did they get some oversea conquest already ?
And we must hope that our investment is paying of well. No way any of them is gonna have 900 science per turn if they did not get lucky with an early leader to build the same FP we did without the cost of the investment.
It could still be a close call however. I do think our FP investment was worthy, but we must make up for the missed slingshot. If we did well enough for that remains a question.
PS: look at Klarius territory graph. Can't enjoy the look of that. Did they get some oversea conquest already ?
Ok... I have good news and bad news:
Good news: We have beach head in ENgland;
Bad News: Romans somewhat messed up our pre-builds
pre-turn: Changed atlanta to Cavalry. Atlanta makes 33 spt even if i disconnect salt it will make knight in 3 turns with lots of shields lost. I can't disconnect iron as well need it for railroads. So i will build a cavalry one every 3 turns.
T1. 760AD. Sci.Met. comes and corporation in 4 turns at 90% of science. Switch to ToE in SF.
It is due in 11 turns. Swap tiles with Eindhoven. This way ToE comes exactly when we need it in 13 turns and i shave one turn of factory in Eindhoven. Convert taxman in corrupted cities to scientists and i can actually get corporation in 4 turns at 80% of science and we have +126gpt
T2. 770AD. Chicago factory->cavalry; railroading ics towns for faster growth. Finished mining mountains around Eindhoven.
T3. 780AD Atlanta cav->cav; St.Dman lib->harbor; Crap... nobody told me Atlanta didn't have barracks built and i didn't check.... Oh well.... Atlanta switched to barracks.
IBT. Roman galley pair appeared near Orlando up north.
T4. 790AD. Boston factory->Univ??? or do we need univ at this point??? i Doubt so... i started building a cavalry there
Phili univ->cavalry. Short-rushed factory in Buffalo ready in 4 turns.
IBT. Vikings landed warrior and sword near Tatung. Polution strikes SF.
T5. 800AD. Cav kills sword and promoted to vet. Corporation comes switch to steel at 100% with help of scientists in 4 turns. Vikings will talk peace and give us 2 cities. One in England mainland. Good deal. I take it.
IBT. WarHapiness ended and i missed it - New Orleans rioted.
T6. 810AD. Finished all the rail-roading. Eindhoven factory->barracks
T7. 820AD. Rushed last 5 turns on factory in NewOrleans for less than 200 gold.
T8. 830AD. Buffalo factory->cav; Eindhoven barracks->cav; New Orleans factory->Market. Sci slider down to 90%. Steel is due next turn. Convert some scientists to taxmen. Rome will pay us 61gpt for Corporation, but i will wait until the
get RP.
T9. 840AD. Shantung settler. Steel comes in 5 turns at 100%... But after converting taxmen to scientists again and joining workers to our main and ics cities i managed to get it in 4 turns.
IBT. We lost furs and to avoid rioting in New Orleans and one of the former chinese cities i decided to make a deal with Rome... Give them corporation for furs and 60gpt. Romans completed US :suicide:
T10. 850AD. Miami factory->Courthouse; Oh... i missed another trade... no message came we lost wool. I have to hire a clown and a scientist in Tsigtao and a clown in New Orleans.
The fact that Rome completed US on my last turn sucks; I didn't predict such an outcome. I have to change SF to palace and Washington to ToE. I can MM Washington to get ToE in 3 and Refining in 3, but we need ToE in 4 otherwise we will waste refining. Or i can make ToE in 5 and Refining in 4; Or i can do better. I can irrigate one mined plains near Washington and MM it to get refining in 3 and ToE still in 4. So lets do it... Too bad our hoover build will be postponed... Hate Romans for that
And at the end i decided to short rush Market in New Orleans it needs one badly.
We probably need to rush a harbor and some culture in Vadso - town in English mainland. It's building a worker at the moment.
It is also a good time to disconnect iron and salt. i didn't do it so don't yell at me if i should have done so.
I also suggest we build Courthouses in Miami and Buffalo. Those cities will benefit from courts nicely.
@Wacken and Offa.... Don't worry about Klarius. Lets play our game. We know they cheated with republic slingshot, they would never beat us in fair competition
Picture:
Good news: We have beach head in ENgland;
Bad News: Romans somewhat messed up our pre-builds
pre-turn: Changed atlanta to Cavalry. Atlanta makes 33 spt even if i disconnect salt it will make knight in 3 turns with lots of shields lost. I can't disconnect iron as well need it for railroads. So i will build a cavalry one every 3 turns.
T1. 760AD. Sci.Met. comes and corporation in 4 turns at 90% of science. Switch to ToE in SF.
It is due in 11 turns. Swap tiles with Eindhoven. This way ToE comes exactly when we need it in 13 turns and i shave one turn of factory in Eindhoven. Convert taxman in corrupted cities to scientists and i can actually get corporation in 4 turns at 80% of science and we have +126gpt
T2. 770AD. Chicago factory->cavalry; railroading ics towns for faster growth. Finished mining mountains around Eindhoven.
T3. 780AD Atlanta cav->cav; St.Dman lib->harbor; Crap... nobody told me Atlanta didn't have barracks built and i didn't check.... Oh well.... Atlanta switched to barracks.
IBT. Roman galley pair appeared near Orlando up north.
T4. 790AD. Boston factory->Univ??? or do we need univ at this point??? i Doubt so... i started building a cavalry there
Phili univ->cavalry. Short-rushed factory in Buffalo ready in 4 turns.
IBT. Vikings landed warrior and sword near Tatung. Polution strikes SF.
T5. 800AD. Cav kills sword and promoted to vet. Corporation comes switch to steel at 100% with help of scientists in 4 turns. Vikings will talk peace and give us 2 cities. One in England mainland. Good deal. I take it.
IBT. WarHapiness ended and i missed it - New Orleans rioted.
T6. 810AD. Finished all the rail-roading. Eindhoven factory->barracks
T7. 820AD. Rushed last 5 turns on factory in NewOrleans for less than 200 gold.
T8. 830AD. Buffalo factory->cav; Eindhoven barracks->cav; New Orleans factory->Market. Sci slider down to 90%. Steel is due next turn. Convert some scientists to taxmen. Rome will pay us 61gpt for Corporation, but i will wait until the
get RP.
T9. 840AD. Shantung settler. Steel comes in 5 turns at 100%... But after converting taxmen to scientists again and joining workers to our main and ics cities i managed to get it in 4 turns.
IBT. We lost furs and to avoid rioting in New Orleans and one of the former chinese cities i decided to make a deal with Rome... Give them corporation for furs and 60gpt. Romans completed US :suicide:
T10. 850AD. Miami factory->Courthouse; Oh... i missed another trade... no message came we lost wool. I have to hire a clown and a scientist in Tsigtao and a clown in New Orleans.
The fact that Rome completed US on my last turn sucks; I didn't predict such an outcome. I have to change SF to palace and Washington to ToE. I can MM Washington to get ToE in 3 and Refining in 3, but we need ToE in 4 otherwise we will waste refining. Or i can make ToE in 5 and Refining in 4; Or i can do better. I can irrigate one mined plains near Washington and MM it to get refining in 3 and ToE still in 4. So lets do it... Too bad our hoover build will be postponed... Hate Romans for that
And at the end i decided to short rush Market in New Orleans it needs one badly.
We probably need to rush a harbor and some culture in Vadso - town in English mainland. It's building a worker at the moment.
It is also a good time to disconnect iron and salt. i didn't do it so don't yell at me if i should have done so.
I also suggest we build Courthouses in Miami and Buffalo. Those cities will benefit from courts nicely.
@Wacken and Offa.... Don't worry about Klarius. Lets play our game. We know they cheated with republic slingshot, they would never beat us in fair competition
Picture:
It again comes to the question if we want to go after flight 1st now.
and then self-research to electronics while SF is building Hoovers.
EDIT: Whatever path we choose it only takes 8 more turns from now for San Francisco to build Hoover (800 shields). so if we go after flight we will have to postpone Hoover build and our GAs and give some SF shields to other cities.
Also, We won't be able to researh Atomic Theory in less than 5 turns no matter what - too expensive.
So perhaps we should keep going after Hoovers
and then self-research to electronics while SF is building Hoovers.
EDIT: Whatever path we choose it only takes 8 more turns from now for San Francisco to build Hoover (800 shields). so if we go after flight we will have to postpone Hoover build and our GAs and give some SF shields to other cities.
Also, We won't be able to researh Atomic Theory in less than 5 turns no matter what - too expensive.
So perhaps we should keep going after Hoovers
Xevious
1 Solvalou left
I believe you will get your tech before TOE will complete, so having refining and TOE finish the same turn should be ok.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
You say steel in 4 turns, but you mean Refining ? We have all techs now in 4 ?
That is nice, we have 1000 science per turn.
We should just finish ToE in SF, and Washington can be swiched to Hoover the moment we get ToE in 3 turns and use it to get the needed technology.
We should mine some more grassland for the cities that still have food surplus and for the cities that are building a harbor and soon to have food surplus.
A Harbor in Vadso isn't really needed IMO. I think i'd just build workers there. 1 for an airstrip and to connect the road to england.
Some more micromanagement needs to be done for better cav production. They cost 80, so the magic numbers are 16, 20, 27, 40. New York is at 19 now, shoud be 20. Atlanta has wasted production, it can give NY a desert.
Seattle can get a productive land from Chicago and/or philly to speed up production. Please be carefull on these things, this is important MM.
I see Rome wants an arm and a leg for Nationalism. I hope they won't be so expensive if they get us replacable parts.
Our millitary is still weak compared to Rome, Scandinavia and Japan
.
Attack is counted heavier than defence, the AI usually builds more defenders than attackers. 1 cav is worth >2 pikes. Meaning they must be strongly defended
Lets give Rome Sci meth for wool as soon as we finish ToE.
That settler near spices is inside our circle for corruption. If you want a city there, declare on Greece, and build the city on the hills NE of the spices colony. This can be done in 8 turns when deals end.
That is nice, we have 1000 science per turn.
We should just finish ToE in SF, and Washington can be swiched to Hoover the moment we get ToE in 3 turns and use it to get the needed technology.
We should mine some more grassland for the cities that still have food surplus and for the cities that are building a harbor and soon to have food surplus.
A Harbor in Vadso isn't really needed IMO. I think i'd just build workers there. 1 for an airstrip and to connect the road to england.
Some more micromanagement needs to be done for better cav production. They cost 80, so the magic numbers are 16, 20, 27, 40. New York is at 19 now, shoud be 20. Atlanta has wasted production, it can give NY a desert.
Seattle can get a productive land from Chicago and/or philly to speed up production. Please be carefull on these things, this is important MM.
I see Rome wants an arm and a leg for Nationalism. I hope they won't be so expensive if they get us replacable parts.
Our millitary is still weak compared to Rome, Scandinavia and Japan
.Attack is counted heavier than defence, the AI usually builds more defenders than attackers. 1 cav is worth >2 pikes. Meaning they must be strongly defended
Lets give Rome Sci meth for wool as soon as we finish ToE.
That settler near spices is inside our circle for corruption. If you want a city there, declare on Greece, and build the city on the hills NE of the spices colony. This can be done in 8 turns when deals end.
WackenOpenAir said:
I haven't got the save yet, but hopefully will play tonight, failing that tommorrow.
Wacken, I think dman said there is no remaining prebuild for Washington so if SF gets switched to ToE, Washington is unable to retain its shields. Or did I read this wrong?
I am also pretty sure that you get science advances before buildings so getting refining in 3 and TOE in 3 as well should be OK. Correct me if I am wrong.
Isn't it a bit late in the day for some of these peaceful builds?
I plan to carry on along the Hoover Dam line, as this seemed to be the favoured option.
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