SGOTM8 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Should we start talking roster? The game will officially start in a couple of days.

I'm not in too big of a hurry to get roster stuff done yet. With WillowBrook away until the 18th Aug and Gator tending to his father, I'm not entirely ready to do this. Doesn't mean the team isn't ready tho.

I'd like to hear from some of the others on the issues raised thus far and see if there are other ideas from those presented. I would also like to hear Gator's opinion on the start, and that may be several days away.

One of the things we've done with the start in the past is had someone download it and move the scout to see what is around us. The most obvious move is west to the mountain. However, I could make a case for moving South-South in order to verify the suggested settling location of the desert tile to the south.The southern move would show us all the tiles available for a city build on the desert tile except for 2, if I'm reading it correctly.

The other fairly important issue is city spacing, but it would be nice to see the map before deciding.

EDIT - BTW - This is a very interesting post by Gyathaar.

 

[bluebox]

Hi, I've read leif's well-written report throroughly and after some I came up with these points:

We shouldn't war too early as we want them to get to Map Making for us, which we can get in a peace deal.

Second that, of course, despite my other message. We might have to change our tech trading strategy throughout the game. We need to buy and sell a lot in the beginning which would be described as classic "tech brokering". Then we'll have to get wars going, research by ourselves faster then they do (therefore early aggressive expansion) and slow down the AI by alliances. Good thing is we probably can wage as many wars as we want because the AI cannot execute naval invasions.

After 20 turns, they nearly always gave cities for peace, even though we didn't do any damage to them.

To lift the price in a peace deal we could leave some defined settling space for oversea civs to settle in (some kind of civ zoo ). In the case of war we can take/retake those cities to inflict damage especially to republican civs.

Later. The problem I then encountered is what to do with these cities.

The question I'd like to raise is if we really need to constantly get cities throughout the game. An alternative might be to play some kind of "space race" strategy until helicopters are available. We could expand where neccessary, put the focus on science, build up a large military and and finally switch to conquest strategy. I underline leif's statement:

I think that whoever can stay ahead in the tech race will have a leg up in the fastest finish.

Successive wars throughout the game could hinder us in research.

to cash rush airfields

we have no airfields, we're vanilla! Ah, u mean airports!


I noticed some confusion among us how air transport works. I did some testing and compiled an example list of what we can do with what units:

           unit type                 Airlift   Heli
---------------------------------------------------
Infantry type ground troops             O       O
Marine, Paratrooper                     O       O
Tank, Mod. Armor                        O       X
Mech. Inf.                              O       X
Cavalry                                 O       X
any Artillery unit                      X       X
Cruise Missile                          ?       O
Settler, Worker, Scout, Explorer        ?       O

Airlift by airports can transport 1 unit per airport per turn! This method is very slow, but allows us the air transport of mechanized units. Artillery units from catapult to radar arty cannot be airlifted/airdropped in any way and so can't be civil units! edit: forget about this one ; according to Alans game description they can be airdropped, Cruise Missiles too. No info about airlifting, though.

An airdrop from Heli (range 8 tiles) consumes the movement points of the transported units. The heli has to be stationed in an airport. Thus, it's not possible with a heli to pick up (evacuate) units!

A paratrooper (we should not overlook this unit class) can perform an airdrop without the help of an heli in 6 tiles range from a city with airport.

Here we can also define some civ terminology: 'airdrop' means an air movement of a unit from an airport to a random tile; 'airlift' means (to make use of) the capability of airports to transport units between them.

That it for now. Hope it helps.

 

[Mistfit]

Do not limit yourself to thinking that this game HAS to be won with Helicopters.

IMHO the winning team will have never gotten that far.

Keep thinking of ways to accomplish this without the use of the copters. Palace Jumping come quickly to mind. I actually think that the PTW Vin teams will be able to make better use of this variant with RCP.

Just my 2 centavos.

 

[Tomoyo]

In the RBCiv convenant game, most players were able to demand cities and rush units to win conquest in the AA/MA.

One of my custom mods, a civ, called the Korites, have a Pikeman replacement that's 1.4.2 with airdrop capabilities (50 shields) and barracks labeled as airdrop things. That would be the best civ for this variant, but since you're not playing them, oh well.

I have to help you with spam! You guys are already falling behind!

 

[leif erikson]

@Bluebox - Thanks for straightening out the terminology. You're correct.
I just went back to SGOTM05, since this was the last time we were in the Modern Age, and have confirmed that Artillery won't fly. That thread is a great read though. I bookmarked at as we may need to refer to it.

I also confirmed that we had airports in every production city and could send every tank produced to the one airport near the front.

The question I'd like to raise is if we really need to constantly get cities throughout the game. An alternative might be to play some kind of "space race" strategy until helicopters are available. We could expand where neccessary, put the focus on science, build up a large military and and finally switch to conquest strategy.

I am also thinking along these lines. If we can't expand the cities we get through deals to enough to jump the palace (OCN/2 cities needed to make the jump), then a productive core with airports will do most of what we need. Artillery could be cash rushed in far flung cities or by disbanding drafted infantry from captured cities.

@Tomoyo - Can we get some of those Korite pikes?

@Mistfit - Have you some ideas on how to move large numbers of units across bodies of water without airlift? This post gives the conditions for jumping the palace. It'll be difficult to acquire that many cities all together to form a new core, although not *impossible*.
EDIT - Spelling

 

[Mistfit]

I didn't say I knew how...I said don't close the door on the option

 

[leif erikson]

I didn't say I knew how...I said don't close the door on the option

Well, you're right, of course. I'd just like some help in making it a *viable option*.

As I said above, I went back and read some of our SGOTM05 thread, which took some time to find in the archive, and it was fun to reread what a cliffhanger it was. There is much we can use for this, especially Alan's attack on France to prevent the UN build and our march across the continent.....

 

[DJMGator13]

Day 2 of the SGOTM08 thread and on page 2 already. Good work team Too much reading for me to catch up on tonight, I'll try to read it tomorrow after work.


My dad's test came back with mixed news. Good news is he does not need another bypass surgery. He had a quad bypass 6 years ago. Bad news is that there is damage to one of his prior bypassed areas and there is nothing they can do. So he needs to be aware of it and do things in moderation. They will also monitor the other bypasses to make sure they stay open.

 

[leif erikson]

My dad's test came back with mixed news. Good news is he does not need another bypass surgery. He had a quad bypass 6 years ago. Bad news is that there is damage to one of his prior bypassed areas and there is nothing they can do. So he needs to be aware of it and do things in moderation. They will also monitor the other bypasses to make sure they stay open.

At least they do not need to do more surgery, that is always a good thing. If he is like my father, trying to get him to realize what "moderation" is will be the interesting part.

 

[leif erikson]

I'd much rather we agreed on the scout/warrior issue. It's so early in the game that, although it seems insignificant, it may prove to be an important decision. Besides, we've got plenty time to discuss it now

For some reason, I've been thinking about this since I read it. What made me think even more was this:

Since maps are available pretty early for all teams, I see no reason to give the percent.. but map is fully handmade so doesnt follow any standard values.

I think I would be willing to pay the 10 shields to have 2 Scouts out to figure out what this means. Maps can not be too available to C3C teams as they can't use Curraghs to explore. We can trade after Map Making but I'm not sure how to take this.

Perhaps Gyathaar will taunt us by allowing us to see our neighbors one coastal tile away all around us? Although that isn't so bad if there is a 4-turn settler factory available to us right away?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I just thought of something that I know is way out there, but please hear me out before you start the negative comments

What if we abandon RCP altogether? Would the staff then allow us to jump palace as long as it's got a few cities that are closer to the palace than to the FP? Should we check it out?
What I'm thinking is: Like the rest of you, my experience with archi maps is that RCP is pretty difficult anyhow. If we could jump the palace to nearby islands that would have a few of our original cities in range, the remote palace bug wouldn't take so much effect, would it? And we'd accomplish what we're really after in this game: earlier and easier access to other islands.

It doesn't look as clever now that I've written it down
Well, it should increase our spam count

 

[AlanH]

What if we abandon RCP altogether? Would the staff then allow us to jump palace as long as it's got a few cities that are closer to the palace than to the FP? Should we check it out?

You need OCN/2 towns closer to the jumped palace. RCP has no effect on this. Once you jump the palace to a remote location your old core ceases to be affected by RCP. All cities closer to the FP than the palace is to its nearest city get corruption rank = 1, regardless of how they are arranged.

@Gator: I hope your Dad knows how to take it easy. Good luck.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I knew that RCP had no effect on that. I just thought we could abandon one exploit for another...
I said I realized it wasn't so clever

What is OCN in this game again?

If the other islands are close to our own, we can jump the palace around on our own island away from where we want to attack and thus get ocn/2 by jumping to their closest city.

@leif: I might agree on the second scout, but I think we should leave the decision until the turn before it pops. If the first scout has reached the beach by then, chances are that possibilities for exploration and expansion are limited.

 

[bluebox]

One of the things we've done with the start in the past is had someone download it and move the scout to see what is around us.

I like that.

@ Capt: Alan says in the Maint. thread, a team needs 6 cities around the new capital to do a PJ. According to SGOTM scenario 1.3 OCN is 14.

 

[Mistfit]

How about the FP? Cannot that be rushed with leader?

1.) Get a town via Peace Deal
2.) Move your palace to that side of the starting island.
3.) Start making Units out of the new city
4.) Attack someone and get a leader
5.) Rush the FP
6.) Voila new core

Simple

 

[leif erikson]

Simple

You've forgotten one thing, this is the team that played an entire AWD and never got one leader!

 

[leif erikson]

If the other islands are close to our own, we can jump the palace around on our own island away from where we want to attack and thus get ocn/2 by jumping to their closest city.

OK, and what are we to use to make the jump? Do you have a few leaders in your pocket or are we abandoning a city to do a free jump?

@leif: I might agree on the second scout, but I think we should leave the decision until the turn before it pops. If the first scout has reached the beach by then, chances are that possibilities for exploration and expansion are limited.

Using random maps, the islands are generally ragged land forms and have choke points and/or peninsulas here and there. Reaching a beach simply means you may have to turn and go in another direction... Who knows what Gyathaar has cooked up for us???

I would like to hear what you think about the initial Scout move. Where do you think he should go. Should he follow the advice in America and "Go West young man." ? What do you think of a southern move?

If you haven't been in the maintenance thread, Alan posted this, and encouraged us to read it. i'm going there now.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Early on: yes, I'm certaintly suggesting we should disband the capitol if it will allow us a second core on another island. Shrink it to size 1 by settler production, then make the jump. All we loose is a granary and some kultcher (which the XTeam don't want anyway ).

I see the case could be made for moving both WW and SS. I think I second the SS move.
1) SS will reveal 3 (or is it 4?) grassland squares. In a random game, there would be a good chance we'd find the BG we need for the 4-turn settler factory.
2) The trek to find a nice spot to settle in the W could be up to 3 turns. If we've got enemies nearby that may well be too risky.

Otoh, fog gazing: could there be FPW NW NW N of the start?

 

[WillowBrook]

Great discussion guys!

Unfortunately, I've been busy and now am about to head out of town, so I'm not sure if I can add anything intelligent to the discussion.

My personal preference is to build a second scout first - I just like to know what the lay of the land is as soon as possible. I have no idea if that's the best strategy. Oh, and my scouts tend to get killed by barbs, so sometimes there's need for more than two....

 

[leif erikson]

Early on: yes, I'm certaintly suggesting we should disband the capitol if it will allow us a second core on another island. Shrink it to size 1 by settler production, then make the jump. All we loose is a granary and some kultcher (which the XTeam don't want anyway ).

It will be difficult to give up a 4-turn settler factory, although we could re-establish it easy enough. For me, the key to jumping the palace is having a FP built and ready to keep the old core productive.

This is another good reason to get 2 scouts out; to find both the lay of the land and neighbors so we can effectively lay out a core and plan where a FP would be most useful. If we plan to jump the palace, our initial core can be tighter because of the way the FP works. Our new core can be made more open. To build an early FP, we have to get to OCN which means early expansion, which is always our goal.

I see the case could be made for moving both WW and SS. I think I second the SS move.
1) SS will reveal 3 (or is it 4?) grassland squares. In a random game, there would be a good chance we'd find the BG we need for the 4-turn settler factory.
2) The trek to find a nice spot to settle in the W could be up to 3 turns. If we've got enemies nearby that may well be too risky.

Well, it looks like we have a 1 in 5 chance of a BG. Want to take odds?

Otoh, fog gazing: could there be FPW NW NW N of the start?

You know I couldn't gaze Fog to save my own life!
Haven't been right once that I know of.
Anyone else good at fogazing?