Shadow Game: Qin Shi Huang, Immortal, Pangea

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I really like the idea of crushing Monty, hopefully getting some and carving out some extra space. However, I'm going to go with peaceful expansion (for now), because I think I'll learn more that way.

About micro:
- Settler at size 1 right after the worker was a serious option. Nothing wrong with building a warrior for extra safety, though.
- At some point (probably once the settler is out), you'll want to revolt to slavery & 1pop whip your capital.
- Beijing took 7T to grow to size 2, which means 6 hammers had to be stored in a barracks after the initial warrior was completed (any hammers stored into a warrior would decay since your next builds are likely to be worker-settler)

- I never would have considered a size 1 settler. Thanks for putting it on my radar for the future.
- You're absolutely right about the hammers into barracks. I couldn't see any way around it.

After that, you can either go for Construction + HBR or straight to Cuirassiers/Cannons. No doubt killing Monty first is strongest, but developing peacefully & making the most out of a relatively small amount of land while bulbing/trading your way to the Renaissance era is also an important skill to master. With IND + marble (GLib) + gold (Colossus) this map has a lot of research potential.

I have zero confidence in my ability to get to Cuirassiers/cannons in a timely fashion. Even in that previous game (I went on a rampage after I stopped posting and massacred the world), it still took quite a long time to get to steel. That suggests to me that going down that path this time would teach me the most. Definitely something to consider when the time comes.

Settling the gold first, I would probably have gone AH before fishing

Since beakers don't decay, would it be worth switching to AH now and finishing fishing later? If my build order doesn't include an immediate fishing boat, I don't see the down side in switching.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

As a side note, I hardly ever play industrious leaders, and even when I do, I never plan my game around it. Considering the fact that I have marble (or will as soon as I research masonry) and I'm playing on Immortal, are there any wonders (other than the two Pedro78 mentioned) that I should be aiming for and can realistically have a chance at getting?

Pyramids are always nice, but very expensive. I don't think it's worth the attempt here. Having said that, after my gold city churns out a few workers, is it worth switching to the 'mids for the fail gold?

Great Lighthouse is also a favourite of mine. However, I may end up with only 3 or 4 cities around what looks like an inland sea, so it's probably not worth it.

Without mysticism, should Oracle be on my radar? It seems like a lot of teching to get to, and I've got other priorities right now.

 

[antimony]

Previously I thought the Great Library seemed underwhelming (2 free scientists in one city), compared to say the Parthenon (+50% great people points in all your cities). But if you add it to a city that could previously run only 2 scientists, it's effectively +100% great people points in that city, and in a typical game your great people may only be generated by 2-3 strong food cities. Also, the Great Library unlike the Parthenon generates great scientist points, so you don't incur the risk of obtaining something else thant a great scientist. This is important because building at least one library and running two scientists ASAP, and getting multiple great scientists to instantly research techs like Philosophy and Education, is a key factor in getting to Cuirs fast.

Not planning your game around IND seems ok, honestly. Because of how bonuses work (hammers count as 1.5x with IND, 2x with resource, 2.5x with IND + resource), IND is less important if you have the right resource for the wonder (e.g. Pyramids require 500 hammers baseline, 334 if IND, 250 if stone and 200 if stone+IND). In any case it's worth dumping excess hammers into a wonder (instead of a barracks, like earlier) if there is nothing else to build, but I wouldn't recommend changing your plans e.g. picking up masonry early just for that. Even on immortal you can't predict how soon the failgold will arrive (although if the French leader is Louis he will try to build a lot of wonders for sure).

In terms of pausing fishing: ideally you want a workboat to fish those clams as soon as you settle copper city, so you can work backwards and calculate if you can fit AH in between.

 

[Fippy]

Since beakers don't decay, would it be worth switching to AH now and finishing fishing later? If my build order doesn't include an immediate fishing boat, I don't see the down side in switching.

Nope, i would go fishing in that situation before AH (and agree with antimony about a boat for copper city).
Even us "deity players" don't always agree Important for you is that switching plans halfway should not be done often at all.

You can grow to size 4 while building a boat & 2 pop whip your copper settler.
While the worker follows your settler and improves gold.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

So, I've improved the gold, cows and clams. 2 pop whipped the settler and scouted a bit. I figure I'll put the overflow from the whip into a 3rd settler, then switch to a warrior before finishing the settler. I've only got 2 warriors for 3 (soon to be 4) cities. That sounds precarious.

Spoiler Turn 40 :

When I get around to settling the NE spot, I understand that there's a case for moving it 1S from where I've marked it. It feels unnatural to cottage a dye tile. Can someone please explain why this is a good idea. Also, does it then follow that I should also cottage the silk next to my copper city?

Of course, when cottaging the dye tile was suggested, we didn't know about the horses, so that might change the equation.

Should the first worker out of Shanghai chop the next worker, or maybe a settler for the ivory spot, allowing Beijing's settler to head straight for the NE spot?

Edit: I'm also not entirely sure where to go after the Wheel.
Pottery for cottages and granaries; hunting for ivory; and masonry for marble all seem viable. Hunting into archery could be useful, which then prompts thoughts of HbR for horse archers, but I don't think I want to invest that heavily into military tech if I'm not going on the offensive.

I assume the primary factor will be: what do I want my workers to be doing after they've improved the copper. I don't really have a good answer for that right now.

 

[sampsa]

As a side note, I hardly ever play industrious leaders, and even when I do, I never plan my game around it. Considering the fact that I have marble (or will as soon as I research masonry) and I'm playing on Immortal, are there any wonders (other than the two Pedro78 mentioned) that I should be aiming for and can realistically have a chance at getting?

Well, at least there is lots of fail gold you can get. I don't think pangaea is the correct map script to build tons of wonders.

Pyramids are always nice, but very expensive. I don't think it's worth the attempt here. Having said that, after my gold city churns out a few workers, is it worth switching to the 'mids for the fail gold?

If nothing better to do, 1,5x fail gold is decent.

Great Lighthouse is also a favourite of mine. However, I may end up with only 3 or 4 cities around what looks like an inland sea, so it's probably not worth it.

I'd say it's rarely good on pangaea. When you get better at managing your empire, you'll see that simply working more cottages does the same job.

Without mysticism, should Oracle be on my radar? It seems like a lot of teching to get to, and I've got other priorities right now.

Well, you have the gold-city at least to speed up the tech, so maybe you are in time to put some chops into Oracle. Losing it won't hurt that much if you get at least some fail gold.

 

[sampsa]

Hmm, why not on eastern gold? Being closer to the capital seems better to me. Sorry if this was discussed.

It feels crazy to me that you don't have a warrior securing the area SE...

edit: also, -slider should not be at 80%. 0%/100%, always. Well, unless you are building a road next turn.

 

[Fippy]

Looks like there's no warrior near copper on your screenie?
Sending them of scouting somewhere isn't good, when you start playing serious difficulty levels they are needed to support settling and guard stuff.

Not putting that many into warriors usually means you are building better stuff, so not a bad sign..but then you must value your few units highly
Ask "what does knowing more about land far away do for me?" compared to your settler walking into darkness.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Hmm, why not on eastern gold? Being closer to the capital seems better to me. Sorry if this was discussed.

It feels crazy to me that you don't have a warrior securing the area SE...

edit: also, -slider should not be at 80%. 0%/100%, always. Well, unless you are building a road next turn.

I chose the western gold to ensure that Monty didn't try to squeeze a city between his capital and my gold. I never even thought about staying closer to the capital. (I assume the benefit would be reduced maintenance? I can't see any tiles that would be important to share).

I thought that I would be building a warrior before my second settler. It was obviously an error.

Slider was set to get the wheel next turn, because other than putting down a road, my worker doesn't have anything to do next turn. (Again, because I messed up with the lack of warrior guarding my copper city spot). I thought that losing the rounding error of beakers was less an issue than losing a whole worker turn. Happy to be proven wrong on that one.

 

[sampsa]

I chose the western gold to ensure that Monty didn't try to squeeze a city between his capital and my gold. I never even thought about staying closer to the capital. (I assume the benefit would be reduced maintenance? I can't see any tiles that would be important to share

Yeh, less maintenance for no real downside. Also, grab that extra forest. Fair point on blocking some settling spots from Monty, but on the other hand now you are driving him to settle the ivory spot. Honestly I don't think such things really matter in the end. He is your likely first victim anyway.

I thought that losing the rounding error of beakers was less an issue than losing a whole worker turn. Happy to be proven wrong on that one.

No I think you are correct, that is the only reason why it sometimes makes sense to run an in-between-slider. Good job spotting that. Not sure if building a road is better than chopping though?

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks for the reassuring comments. I was starting to feel dishearteningly stupid.

Not sure if building a road is better than chopping though?

I thought about that too. The real question is: how long until I settle the copper city? If I wait until the warrior gets there, then chopping certainly feels better. If, however, I decide to risk settling without waiting, then I won't have enough time to move the worker to the forest, chop for a turn, then move onto the copper. Since I don't have any idea what barbs look like at turn 40 on immortal, I don't know what is likely out in the fog, and therefore I have no way to gauge how big a risk it is.

 

[sampsa]

I would probably re-play. I don't think you can settle the spot safely.

Btw what is the road you are planning to build? Copper-city will be connected to capital via coast.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Btw what is the road you are planning to build? Copper-city will be connected to capital via coast.

Really? I thought you needed sailing to do that. Nice!

 

[sampsa]

Really? I thought you needed sailing to do that. Nice!

No no. Inside culture you need no tech for connection via coast/river. At sailing the trade network will reach outside your culture, too.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

No no. Inside culture you need no tech for connection via coast/river. At sailing the trade network will reach outside your culture, too.

Outstanding! Ok, if that's the case, when I reload, does that push the Wheel further back in my tech order? Should I look at hunting or masonry first?

 

[sampsa]

Outstanding! Ok, if that's the case, when I reload, does that push the Wheel further back in my tech order? Should I look at hunting or masonry first?

If you want to make an Oracle push, I think this is the time for myst-poly-ph-masonry. ToA fail gold, too. Hunting is for the ivory I guess? That spot is pretty weak so I'd pass on that. Can you get the cow-horse spot? I'd go 1S btw for connection (after capital border pop).

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler T40 :

T17

• Passive EPs: put them on Monty since I met him first, then switched to HC because he's a better techer (not a great trader, though). If you want to learn more about what AI does what you should def check out the Civ Illustrated series (strategy articles section)
• Scouting / fogbusting: initial warrior was parked on the rice until the worker could get to it & is now parked on the FPH until the settler arrives. He will then move towards the Copper spot. Warrior #2 will scout the Northern part a little & then find a cozy spot for fogbusting. This is now a crucial part of the game since barbs on IMM aren't as forgiving as they are on lower difficulties.
• Chopping: the worker will chop the two forests marked with an X before the Settler comes out, & then move on to improve the gold. Each standing forest gives +0.5% (or 0.25% idr) for a forest to grow on each adjacent tile, so you want to chop in a pattern that maximizes forest regrowth when it doesn't get in the way of other stuff.
• The spot marked with an R is likely a strategic resource: only unforested tile in the initial BFC, which makes it lower-priority for later cottaging (at least until IW, we don't care if it's coal/uranium)
• Scout markers: whenever I meet a new AI, I put a marker on their scout's position, gives me an idea of where everyone is & cuts down on the stuff to remember

T27

• Shanghai settled on the Eastern gold. As mentioned by Sampsa going one square further has only downsides.
• I revolted into slavery while the settler was moving. You generally want to make the slavery switch when your empire is the least productive.
• Worker in Beijing will be whipped at 30/60 (perfect timing), chop a forest & improve the cows. Beijing will grow back to size 2 while building another warrior for safety & putting the chops into a settler.
• Northern warrior is healing up & will then scout out a few more tiles before settling down.
• Southern warrior is moving towards the Copper spot. Sent him North of the mountains to avoid any unfortunate encounters on the flatland desert tile (may not seem like a big deal, but it's actually very important).

T33

• Beijing got 2 warriors out while growing to size 2. Probably a bit overkill but the timing was good & it will make fogbusting very easy. When you're not sure about the barb situation, building an extra warrior is rarely a bad idea.
• Workers will double-team the cows on the next turn & then chop the next settler.

T36

• Little question for the crowd: is it safe to move the warrior here?

T40

• Second settler is out. Beijing will now finish the WB, build another settler followed by Granary + Library. Another settler is being chopped in Shanghai. City #3 will probably build another worker at size 1 using the copper tile (when you're not sure, building one more worker is rarely a bad idea)
• Next techs are Wheel-Pottery-Writing & then probably Aesthetics (good trade bait for Alpha)
• About diplo: getting both JC & Monty to pleased is high-priority. Depending on the religious situation, we will probably want to adopt Buddhism asap (we don't care about Gandhi, everyone except SB will hate him anyway). Declaring on Gandhi whenever we get Alpha & bribing Monty and possibly JC on him is definitely in the cards.
• About barbarians:
  • Axemen probably won't be necessary since I have so many warriors fogbusting, but bad combat luck may happen & having copper connected will be a nice safety net.
  • @Gunboat Diplomat I suggest you open the save & look carefully at warrior placement. Every unit fogbusts a 5x5 square around it. Using this, you want to make to cover your surroundings as efficiently as possible & while minimizing risks of getting your units killed (i.e. not moving on flatland when it's not safe). The only area where barbs could spawn here is on the axis North of Beijing, but I spotted a barbarian warrior in this area a few turns ago, so he's doing the fogbusting for me (you often want to kill off barbarian warriors as late as possible to avoid archers spawning in their place)
  • Edit: don't forget to account for AI cities/units: they often do most of the fogbusting for you

Played this very safe, could've shaved off a couple of turns by going settler at size 1 & skipping another warrior, but I believe this is the kind of play OP should aim for. Save attached.

 

[Pedro78]

Couple more things:

- Not convinced at all about the Oracle here. Might get away with it if it goes late, but Pottery-Writing seems higher priority here. The only Oracle path that would make sense here would be skipping AH in favor of Wheel+Pottery & grabbing Metal Casting.

Spoiler Turn 40 :

How many workers do you have here? These BFC forests are begging to be chopped: little good comes from tree-hugging when you have strong city spots to settle.

Edit: I'm also not entirely sure where to go after the Wheel.
Pottery for cottages and granaries; hunting for ivory; and masonry for marble all seem viable. Hunting into archery could be useful, which then prompts thoughts of HbR for horse archers, but I don't think I want to invest that heavily into military tech if I'm not going on the offensive.

- Pottery for granaries, not cottages. The only two cottages you're likely to build in this game are on the river tiles SE of Beijing.
- Writing is almost always high-priority to get a library in your capital for the research boost & GS points (for either an academy or a bulb)
- Hunting will be required at some point but is far from urgent: jungle jumbos don't make a good tile & gold makes happy cap less of an issue
- Masonry is also low-priority: you're much better off getting Aesth/Alpha sooner to get into the trading game.
- Horse Archers are only good if you can attack quite early: you usually want to stay on 2-3 cities & beeline the required techs. Not a good fit for this map.

The next crossroads will be deciding between Elepults and peaceful teching until Renaissance. This will only affect your tech choice after Writing, though, so you still have a bit of time to decide.

Should the first worker out of Shanghai chop the next worker, or maybe a settler for the ivory spot, allowing Beijing's settler to head straight for the NE spot?

If you only have one worker there, then the answer is probably to chop another one. In general, worker build priority goes like this:
1) Improve the power tiles (copper, cows, etc.)
2) Chop
3) Everything else
There are obvsl many exceptions to this rule, i.e. if you're lacking commerce you may want to put down a couple of cottages before chopping.
Striking the balance between settlers & workers is always tricky. In general you want to be ready to improve any new city's important tiles asap. A good way to think about it is to picture what your current workers will be doing a few turns from now & see if you can free one up to work on the new city. If not, then you probably want another worker before the settler.

Edit:

I don't have any idea what barbs look like at turn 40 on immortal

Barbs start entering your borders once the average number of cities per player reaches 3. Should be around T45-50 on IMM.

 

[antimony]

When I get around to settling the NE spot, I understand that there's a case for moving it 1S from where I've marked it. It feels unnatural to cottage a dye tile. Can someone please explain why this is a good idea. Also, does it then follow that I should also cottage the silk next to my copper city?

Yes, definitely settle where you suggest for the horses, you will get the dye tile when Beijing next expands its borders anyway.

My suggestion was more to point out that if one of your best tiles yield-wise is a resource that doesn't get its proper improvement until Calendar (a tech which you get rather late usually, esp. on Pangea), then you can put another improvement on it (farm or cottage) since you want to get the most of your best yield tiles. Silk is a bit different because it's forested, so you can cottage the river tiles faster, but let's say you have a riverside silk or dye (2F 2C) and a river grass (2F 1C), I would actually cottage and work the 2F 2C first in the early game because it would take 10 turns for the other tile to catch up to it, and yields now > yields later.

The other question which Pedro is bringing up is cottages vs. scientists, and scientists are a greater priority because of the great people points, when you have the food to support them. So for example Beijing at size 4 can work rice + cow and run two scientists, and you have 11 food (5+4+2 from city center), leaving a 3F surplus for growth. So it can still grow and work cottages. Getting a library with 2 scientists in Beijing is thus a high priority as Pedro said. No other city is great food-wise. Cow-horse provides more food from its 2 best tiles than than clam-copper, but cow+horse+2 scientists make the city growth stagnate at size 4. I don't know then if it's better to build the cottage and stagnate at size 5 instead, or whether the library is even a priority there.

The Cuir tech path including the Great Library still seems like a good fit here, the only worry is the lack of cities with good food resources beyond those we have planned. Maybe Pedro and Fippy have a better idea how well it can be done with the current land. Maybe scouting SE or NW will reveal more food, otherwise we're a bit boxed in.

 

[pigswill]

When do barbs appear on Immortal?