Shadow Game: Qin Shi Huang, Immortal, Pangea

[Gunboat Diplomat]

So, I don't expect to win this game, but I do hope it will be informative. As suggested, I have increased the difficulty from my last game and put all the settings to a more normal configuration. No huts or events. BUG. Immortal, pangea. That's it.

Spoiler Starting Position :

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the first game I rolled after my last shadow game also ended up with me starting on a plains hill marble?

It's less impressive because I don't start with fishing, and I can't see any more food. I'm guessing that sending the warrior 1NW is the way to go, and if there's food in that direction, move the settler towards it?

 

[Fippy]

Warrior on dye imo - nw he will see only forests
Don't think anything can change our mind against a marble move..but why not look first.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

A closer look makes me think that the tile 2N1W of the warrior is flat land. Not sure if that changes anything.

Spoiler Close up 2N1W :

 

[Fippy]

Hmm true, doesn't change much imo.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. Moved the warrior to the coast - nothing interesting. Beijing settled on the PH Marble. Very interesting terrain revealed.

Spoiler Beijing Turn 1 :

That's a fresh water lake to the west.

My first thoughts are:
Use warrior to scout northern ring.
Build a worker to improve cows, then rice. Next build a warrior to scout land to the south.
Tech AH -> BW -> wheel -> pottery

Between the green cows and wet rice, I feel as if I can leave the clams for a southeastern city.

Edit: that's me done for the night. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

 

[Fippy]

Well i would say about as good as we could hope for.

Tech costs increase on Imm so it's doubtful AH will be ready in 10t.
Plus i am not sure it's best here.

Clams as only tile are important and 3 city helps with a workboat, fishing first and living with rice as worker improvement looks reasonable.

 

[antimony]

I like fishing here because there isn't much commerce in cap and no river to cottage. Also fishing reduces the cost of pottery down the line. It also gives your capital something to build while growing (we don't need so many warriors early on immortal). So it's probably still AH Fishing and BW for me but not sure in what order. Also depends what your warrior finds while scouting the perimeter.

EDIT: Wrote this at the same time as Fippy was posting so I basically agree with the above.

 

[Pedro78]

Bit of a weird start. I'd say BW first, settler at size 2 & work that gold tile ASAP. It's faster than going fishing & keeps more flexibility. Starting with Ag & Mining here is a real blessing.

 

[lymond]

Ha...this is an odd map...I played a bit. Attaching a save fwiw, but I'm a bit rusty so don't necessarily consider this that educational..ha..but feel free to review later after..say..turn 66.
edit: Nice that that rice is wet...I did not notice that until I farmed it.

Spoiler Turn 66 :

I'm at 6 cities, while the AIs have 3 to 4 cities, which is a bit surprising. I have another settler primed to take a spot down S, but don't want to settle it til Writing is in which will be a while. it probably isn't really a necessary city, but I'll take it if I can. Only SB has Writing yet and I OB'd with him and created a road so trade routes next turn will help in addition to the two golds I will be able to work soon. Coast tiles have been keeping me afloat.

Stole 2 workers from Monty and just attacked Gandhi and took two workers in one shot, and going to do some pillaging with a chariot.

Elephants will probably be the play here, especially with two nasty neighbors. Monty for sure will gun for me.

 

[sampsa]

There is also a possibility of a disaster: jungle can spread on the rice. I would park the warrior on rice to prevent that, sacrificing some early scouting.

I think fishing is fine, but underwhelming. Wouldn't want to pay 30 for that tile, though I guess you get the lake as a bonus. Something more aggressive like Pedro suggests is more to my taste.

 

[Fippy]

I only just saw it's wet rice from Lymond's post, funny one.
30 boat would not bother me, almost an auto build on a marble PH..but lost worker turns after improving rice might.

 

[sampsa]

I also didn't notice the rice is wet. Surely getting 30 is not much of a pain with OP city center, but that 30 could be spent better.

 

[Pedro78]

Got a bit more time now so I'll elaborate.

Tech AH -> BW -> wheel -> pottery

This tech path is wrong because it will yield a big burst in early production with 0 extra commerce, which will lead to a lot of wasted hammers & make it difficult to get all the worker techs + writing

A general rule of thumb is that you want to prioritize commerce on hammer-rich starts & vice versa. Here you've got a lot of production (10T worker & +2h city center) & no immediate way to generate commerce, so finding one should be the first thing on your mind. The same reasoning stands behind Fippy's suggestion of going for fishing & my suggestion of going for the gold. While I think the latter is more effective in this particular scenario, the former is more universal: there are many slow starts where you have to rely on working lakes/seafood to get through the ancient era.

There is also a possibility of a disaster: jungle can spread on the rice. I would park the warrior on rice to prevent that, sacrificing some early scouting.

Totally agree with that. The 3h city tile eases the pain a little bit.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

That's a fresh water lake to the west.
...
Between the green cows and wet rice, I feel as if I can leave the clams for a southeastern city.

Seems I was the only one who didn't overlook the importance of the fresh water lake.

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll have a better look at it tonight. I vaguely recall some previous advice (probably 5 years ago during a nobles club I attempted back then) that warned against relying on water tiles for . There must have been some nuance in the position that I didn't pick up on. Either that, or the accepted wisdom has changed over that time (which sounds equally reasonable).

 

[sampsa]

I vaguely recall some previous advice (probably 5 years ago during a nobles club I attempted back then) that warned against relying on water tiles for . There must have been some nuance in the position that I didn't pick up on. Either that, or the accepted wisdom has changed over that time (which sounds equally reasonable).

Long-term working tons of water tiles is not great at all. Short-term in the early game they can be the best you got. I think 22 is pretty decent for the early game.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Oh dear. No food anywhere near the gold, and it's on Monty's doorstep. Is settling on one and working the other even worth it?

Spoiler Barren Gold :

Once I realised that any city near the gold would never grow, and I finished BW, I pivoted to fishing and started to chop my settler. I have no idea where I'm going to send it though. Maybe 1SE of the clam to grab the copper?

Spoiler North :

That's another fresh water lake to the NE, so a city either E or W of the NE cows would get a few 3F tiles after sailing, but that seems too far away to consider right now.
The only other candidate spot I can see is to the west, getting all 3 ivory in its first ring, but I know that those tiles are rubbish until IW.
If I go the ivory spot, then after fishing, hunting>AH would seem logical.
If I get the copper, then directly to AH, followed by wheel and pottery to get cottages down as quickly as I can. It seems like a long time to wait, but I don't see anything better. Unless axe rushing Monty is an option?

 

[antimony]

1SE of clam would also be my pick for city 2. Ivory is not a priority spot, and whereas a 1 pop city working a gold mine is worth it, it seems you would want to settle stronger growth cities first. Gold city would still be my 3rd or 4th pick, only because we are in such a commerce-starved start. (With cow/dye, cottaging the dye.)

For the axe rush: i don't remember if a coast connects cities inside your borders pre sailing. If it does, then all you need is a worker to accompany your settler and build a mine then a road. But you need to scout Monty to see if his cap is on a hill and how well defended. I'm sure it's possible but you need another worker for sure, then still a workboat for food for city 2, then have enough whips / chops to build the axe army.

Advantage of taking Monty's cap is that you don't need to rush for the gold (or ivory if you eventually want it), but it does set back your cap's economy quite a bit.

 

[Fippy]

Settle on gold first
Not all cities must be the standard priority.
You can train workers there, size 1 cities cost less and are well uncomplicated.
As Pedro wrote: high start should be combined with if possible.

On deity settling copper first would be a huge priority prolly.
But Imm barbs are no danger until a bit later.
Axe rushes are not really recommended on Imm anymore if there are better options ahead (Elepult).

Choking Monty (worker stealing & delaying his development) is good, if you see one and take your chance.
But maybe we shouldn't start with doing that already on your first high level game.

 

[Pedro78]

Is settling on one and working the other even worth it?

Yes. The city will stay at size 1 forever & work the gold tile, mostly building workers. It only costs ~10 worker turns to set up & it will produce 8-9 + 5 every turn from T30, it's a great city!

About micro:
- Settler at size 1 right after the worker was a serious option. Nothing wrong with building a warrior for extra safety, though.
- At some point (probably once the settler is out), you'll want to revolt to slavery & 1pop whip your capital.
- Beijing took 7T to grow to size 2, which means 6 hammers had to be stored in a barracks after the initial warrior was completed (any hammers stored into a warrior would decay since your next builds are likely to be worker-settler)

A few options here:
1) Rush Monty with Axes: research the wheel, settle the copper, go for the kill
2) Expand peacefully: settle gold first, then copper. Next cities are Ivories & Northern Cows in some order.

After that, you can either go for Construction + HBR or straight to Cuirassiers/Cannons. No doubt killing Monty first is strongest, but developing peacefully & making the most out of a relatively small amount of land while bulbing/trading your way to the Renaissance era is also an important skill to master. With IND + marble (GLib) + gold (Colossus) this map has a lot of research potential.

Edits:

But maybe we shouldn't start with doing that already on your first high level game.

Agreed, worker stealing is very powerful on IMM but it shouldn't get in the way of good city management & tech priorities, especially as an improving player.

Settling the gold first, I would probably have gone AH before fishing

 

[antimony]

If you're settling the gold and not axe rushing then would you tech AH next? Both roads and cottages seem less pressing in that scenario and maybe horses could affect next steps?

Also want to note that while I'm not the OP I am really learning a lot from the discussion of this very peculiar map!