I believe it's always when 3 cities / average for all AIs (and players) has been reached.
On higher difficulties that just happens quicker.
Oh i just saw you wrote appear..figured you mean enter borders.
@Pedro78: Mate, that was awesome! Thanks for your save game and the detailed notes. I've just spent a couple of hours trying to emulate your run for the first 40 turns. I can replicate up to turn 27 without a problem. But the only way I can get 2 warriors out between T27 and T33 is to put the overflow from whipping the worker and an entire chop into warriors. Trying to put the chop into a settler delays the warriors significantly. So either, I'm misreading your commentary, or my micro still needs a lot of work.
Either way, I'm going to be worse off than you because the rng decided to place a barb archer around the copper site. Even luring it onto a forest tile, I always lose at least one warrior trying to deal with it. However, I'm not really worried about that. I'm learning too much from trying to follow along with the info, screens and save that you've given us!
@antimony Thanks for the clarification and your insight as well! I'm more than happy to farm riverside food tiles like bananas and sugar, but I'm much more hesitant to cottage calendar resources. I guess it's because I don't want to put myself in a position where I have to demolish an improved cottage to get the resource. Having said that, before my previous shadow game, I never would have thought to mine a hills pig, so this might just be another thing I have to let go of in my quest to improve.
That's really unlucky. One way to deal with it is to settle the city when the archer is 2 tiles away. If you're there early enough he won't enter your borders unless he has something to attack. That can give you enough time to hook up the copper / bring in reinforcements. Also don't forget that warriors get +25% city defense & and an additional +25% city defense against barbarians, so fortified warriors in a city actually get decent odds against barb archers.
The real test will be whether I can take the specific advice, and extrapolate it to other cases. I don't think I'm there yet, but I'm closer than I was a week ago.
@Pedro78 I didn't quite match your run, but I'm close enough to continue on.
SpoilerTurn 40 :
I got all four warriors, 3 workers and 2 settlers out. I'm 3 turns behind you on the work boat build, and I have no idea why, but I'm going to move on for now.
One of my warriors is out of position because there was crazy barb action in the NE this time. I managed to kill 2 archers with no losses, but there's still one lurking around in the fog up there.
I had a forest grow on my 3rd city site, but I'm not sure if its worth the worker turns to chop before building the city.
Not sure. Seems like I chopped 1 more forest while you improved the cows 1T earlier. Not a huge deal though.
Looking at the screenshot, I'm not a fan of moving the Southeastern warrior into the forest. Leaves the tile 4S1E of Beijing vulnerable. Could also have parked a warrior SE of Shanghai to cover 4S. Not a big deal either because barbs won't be a problem for a while, but an Archer spawning there could be a bit annoying.
Looking at the screenshot, I'm not a fan of moving the Southeastern warrior into the forest. Leaves the tile 4S1E of Beijing vulnerable. Could also have parked a warrior SE of Shanghai to cover 4S. Not a big deal either because barbs won't be a problem for a while, but an Archer spawning there could be a bit annoying.
1. Can barbs spawn on tiles that you have LOS on?
2. Do non-military units also prevent barb spawning (eg the worker on the copper hill and the settler NW of it in that screenshot)?
I assumed that the tile 4S of Beijing was safe because of all those factors. Was I wrong?
So, my NE worker has nothing to do this turn. Should I start roading towards the NE city (an then switch to chopping as soon as I settle it) OR should I send it SE to help chopping for Guangzhou?
My SW worker is almost done chopping the 2 forests there. My instinct is to get him connecting up the gold and then start roading between my cities for movement and trade. Does he have something better he should be doing?
As for settlers, my Beijing settler will try to grab the NE spot before SB gets there (I was able to lure the loitering archer into the forest where my Woodsman I warrior took care of him).
I'm thinking that the Shanghai settler will squeeze in between JC and SB here...
I might prefer the tile 1N of the gold, but I'm fairly sure that SB's city will prevent that (if my guess as to where he put his city is correct). Also, if I'm reading the fog right, this city will have 3 FP in its first ring. I might finally have somewhere to throw down cottages. I get that borders will be a thing here. Would this city build granary > library; or the other way around? Or is it worth interrupting my research to get mysticism for the monument?
After building my settlers, I think I should recruit a few more military units for safety and scouting (I want to see if there's any room to the NW for another city). Should I build warriors (in the cities that aren't connected to copper) and axes where they are, or maybe chariots when I get the horses up?
1. Can barbs spawn on tiles that you have LOS on?
2. Do non-military units also prevent barb spawning (eg the worker on the copper hill and the settler NW of it in that screenshot)?
I assumed that the tile 4S of Beijing was safe because of all those factors. Was I wrong?
I think your suggestion (roads) for workers is good.
Eventually you want to connect all of your cities + establish a trade network with AIs
Regarding Settling, I don't like putting a city in between Native America and Rome. That is asking for trouble.
I would settle near Elephants instead (can share rice)
However maintenance will get steep as you settle city 4 and 5.
You will need at least a couple of extra workers to connect cities and start improving more tiles.
Farms or Cottages around the capitol is an interesting question now
Also we should start to think about a medium term plan.
Several options appear to me:
1. Keep expanding (towards north river) in order to have more land than AIs => dominate later when all cities are big enough. (cottages > farms in this case)
2. Aim at an early war (elephants!) Research with gold and library scientists. Bulb math possibly. (farms > cottages in this case I think)
3. There is of course the infamous Chokonu rush. Not practical on this map I fear. (And not really effective in any game anyways)
Lastly, this is Immortal so you should start worrying about diplomacy and neighbours attititude.
- Open borders as soon as you can.
- Trade resources (Give for free in the beginning, you can cancel and renegotiate every 10 turns)
- Scout a little bit. Halt the game when someone raises his red fist
Also we should start to think about a medium term plan.
Several options appear to me:
1. Keep expanding (towards north river) in order to have more land than AIs => dominate later when all cities are big enough. (cottages > farms in this case)
2. Aim at an early war (elephants!) Research with gold and library scientists. Bulb math possibly. (farms > cottages in this case I think)
3. There is of course the infamous Chokonu rush. Not practical on this map I fear. (And not really effective in any game anyways)
Coming into this game, I was hoping for peaceful expansion so I could focus on improving my tech game (which regularly lets me down). I'm not sure how feasible that is on this map though. I feel decidedly cramped, and if Monty cuts me off to the NW, I've got nowhere left to go. When I chose China, I wasn't considering a chokonu rush, but I did want to use them to erode any stack that dares to enter my territory.
View attachment 666973
So, my NE worker has nothing to do this turn. Should I start roading towards the NE city (an then switch to chopping as soon as I settle it) OR should I send it SE to help chopping for Guangzhou?
My SW worker is almost done chopping the 2 forests there. My instinct is to get him connecting up the gold and then start roading between my cities for movement and trade. Does he have something better he should be doing?
As for settlers, my Beijing settler will try to grab the NE spot before SB gets there (I was able to lure the loitering archer into the forest where my Woodsman I warrior took care of him).
I'm thinking that the Shanghai settler will squeeze in between JC and SB here... View attachment 666974
I might prefer the tile 1N of the gold, but I'm fairly sure that SB's city will prevent that (if my guess as to where he put his city is correct). Also, if I'm reading the fog right, this city will have 3 FP in its first ring. I might finally have somewhere to throw down cottages. I get that borders will be a thing here. Would this city build granary > library; or the other way around? Or is it worth interrupting my research to get mysticism for the monument?
After building my settlers, I think I should recruit a few more military units for safety and scouting (I want to see if there's any room to the NW for another city). Should I build warriors (in the cities that aren't connected to copper) and axes where they are, or maybe chariots when I get the horses up?
A few things there:
- You're not working the clams. You just spent 30 on a boat & are getting 0 return on investment. If you didn't intend to work that tile immediately, it would've been better to delay the wb & go straight for a settler.
- When your workers have nothing to do, try to build the most useful roads. In this case connecting copper, Shanghai & preparing to road into Monty would be a good idea. Pottery is also coming in & you can put down a couple of cottages on the river tiles. You can also build roads towards your future cities - 1 well placed road often means settling a new spot 1 turn sooner.
- Not sure what's higher priority between Ivory & Horse/Cows, since both are at risk of being stolen by the AI. I'd probably go for the Ivory first to secure the elephants in case we get boxed in.
Agreed. Bad idea unless you plan on taking one of them out early. Lots of cultural pressure from both sides, negative diplo points because of border tensions, will make you a Land Target (share 8 land-border tiles with an AI) for both JC & SB sooner etc. And if you're gonna settle it, put it 1W of the location you marked on the map: closer to your capital & only in SB's 4th ring, no third.
And it's got a simple answer: neither
With 3F2C lighthouse-lakes coming up farms are clearly bad & cottages got no early use. The 2 riverside grass tiles can be farmed or cottaged depending on Guangzhou's needs (probably cottage the one in cap BFC & farm the other one, but neither is urgent).
Lastly, this is Immortal so you should start worrying about diplomacy and neighbours attititude.
- Open borders as soon as you can.
- Trade resources (Give for free in the beginning, you can cancel and renegotiate every 10 turns)
- Scout a little bit. Halt the game when someone raises his red fist
Very important. You should be checking the diplo / resources / tech trade screens at the beginning of every single turn, starting very early in the game. Any resource that you don't need (clams, extra gold, whatever) can be temporarily given away to Monty or JC to boost relations (builds up to +2 over time, which is quite a big deal).
Wow. Ok. This is slightly overwhelming. Even with an understanding of the basic rules, the learning curve moving up to immortal is killing me. I think I'm going to have to take a couple of days away from the game to recover from civ fatigue. I really appreciate all the help I'm getting, but I'm obviously still missing things, so a short time away might help. Maybe I'll go and be inept at stellaris for a little while. Have a great weekend everyone.
Just wanted to say that you don't need to apply every single one of the tips we gave you here to win the game, especially when it comes to the micro bits. Many people here will notice small details about the game & explain them, partly so that you're aware of their existence & that there's always room for improvement, but also because we love the game and sometimes can't help nitpicking. Very few are able to maintain this level of analysis in a practical game for many consecutive turns (at least without a huge amount of effort).
The point is that you don't need to get every little detail right to beat immortal (or even deity for that matter). Winning on IMM is all about big picture stuff: get off to a relatively fast start, cut down on the unnecessary techs / buildings, figure out your breakout tech/unit & whip like crazy once you get there. Add in a bit of diplo/trade awareness & you're already winning 90% of the games.
I don't think you're very far from this level, all you really need is to play a few games to learn some of the typical breakout strategies (Lib->Cuirs, HAs & Elepults being the most important on Pangaea). People here can teach you the meta & point out the important mistakes. The only one you've made in this game so far was the absence of fogbusting in your first run.
Don't put too much pressure on yourself, just keep thinking critically & asking questions -- 10 games from now immortal will feel easy & you'll be breaking your teeth tryna win on deity
Well, a couple of days away turned into a few weeks, but I finally got back to this game... and promptly died. About 5 times.
The attached save is my best attempt, but I'm still way behind in tech.
I got sick of Monty sneak attacking me almost every game, so I hit him with a sea of horse archers, but it cost me, so I'll have to wind it back to turn 47 again. If anyone can give me any hints as to where I went wrong in this game, I'll use that when I resume this shadow game properly.
Many thanks.
Attachments
Qin Shi Huang AD-0475d - Monty defeated.CivBeyondSwordSave
Two more attempts at this game. Two more fails. So I'm taking it back and asking for some hand-holding to see where I went wrong.
I have to go for the W city first, otherwise Monty boxes me in. There is still enough time to send a settler to get the NE horses (not pictured) afterwards. That will be city 5. City 6 is going on the river to the north of city 4. City 7 is the rubbish location on the PH due north of Beijing. This last one is almost pure production, so I don't really mind if Gandhi takes it.
SpoilerCity 4 Location :
On the hill, or 1NW?
The hill gets Beijing's rice, and plenty of hills. Eventually this becomes quite a good production city.
1NW turns the focus more onto cottaged river (plus all the ivory), which makes for a stronger commerce city, but not until after IW.
I wouldn't worry about getting boxed in, because when you are boxed in to 4 cities or so, you can expand via war (elepult?). Thus you should value the spots mostly by how they immediately benefit you. Taking cap rice and claiming mediocre/weak tiles is pretty meh, main value being blocking value.
If you value this spot higher than the one in NE, I'd settle on the hill due to Monty. By "On the hill or NW" I suppose you mean SW. NW makes no sense to me, has no food. True, SW has the river protecting you also, but I'd still rather settle on hills when possible.
I wouldn't worry about getting boxed in, because when you are boxed in to 4 cities or so, you can expand via war (elepult?). Thus you should value the spots mostly by how they immediately benefit you. Taking cap rice and claiming mediocre/weak tiles is pretty meh, main value being blocking value.
I agree that this city has no immediate value, but if I don't claim the ivory, I won't have anything to stop Monty's elephants when he decides to annex me. At no point in any of my attempts at this map have I ever been even equal in tech with the AIs for more than a few turns. Do elepults work if you're significantly behind?
Further, if I don't get this spot, I can't expand further up the river. As this is the only river I have access to, if I don't go for it, I'll end up having to cottage around my capital for commerce. I do that anyway, of course, but usually not until a bit later.
The horse city is much better than the ivory one (it can even support a pair of specialists after it gets a lighthouse up), but it still takes ages to build up.
If you value this spot higher than the one in NE, I'd settle on the hill due to Monty. By "On the hill or NW" I suppose you mean SW. NW makes no sense to me, has no food. True, SW has the river protecting you also, but I'd still rather settle on hills when possible.
I did actually mean NW. This obviously highlights how poor my assessment of city placement and tile potential is. I was chasing more river cottages. Yes, it's much more defensible on the hill (and it becomes one of my best production cities), but in previous games, Monty takes it anyway. Even if he waits until I've got Machinery, he has such a large force, that I can't hold it.
Also, if I settle on the hill, he squeezes a city in due W of it. This usually becomes a holy city, and then I've got a culture war that takes the ivory anyway.
Having said all that, I'll try not settling that city at all and see how I go. In addition to the settler in my screenshot above, I've got another one 1 turn from being finished, so after the horse city, I'll have a spare settler that I don't know what to do with. Any suggestions?
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) and here is no exception.
(And not really effective in any game anyways)
Even with an understanding of the basic rules, the learning curve moving up to immortal is killing me. 
