Shootings in the Perian Gulf;

[caketastydelish]

Where, in your mind, is it going? And why do we need a lock?

A flame war between the "anyone who criticizes the american military is a wimp/idiot/needs to leave the country" and the "the us military is evil" people.

It has already gotten ugly between these two groups, and it seems to be getting progressively worse.

 

[Abegweit]

Your post came after mine. I addressed it to Cheezy. Do you think that he is part of the "anyone who criticizes the american military is a wimp/idiot/needs to leave the country" camp? I don't. Nor do I think that my post was a flame.

 

[caketastydelish]

Your post came after mine. I addressed it to Cheezy. Do you think that he is part of the "anyone who criticizes the american military is a wimp/idiot/needs to leave the country" camp? I don't. Nor do I think that my post was a flame.

No Cheesy is not one of them, but they will certainly be replying to you whether you like it or not.

I will not say whether it's a flame or not, but calling the US military "thugs" or "the biggest criminal organization of the world" is quite a bold statement.

 

[Abegweit]

No Cheesy is not one of them, but they will certainly be replying to you whether you like it or not.

He just defended them. I was surprised. I thought better of him.

I will not say whether it's a flame or not, but calling the US military "thugs" or "the biggest criminal organization of the world" is quite a bold statement.

Bold? Facts are not bold. They are just facts.

As a criminal organization, who comes even close? My vote is for the IRS. The Royal Navy is probably a distant third.

 

[caketastydelish]

He just defended them. I was surprised. I thought better of him.

By "they" I did not mean cheesy. Cheesy is not a flamer nor is he a part of the two groups I was referring to. They will however, be here.

Bold? Facts are not bold. They are just facts.

As a criminal organization, who comes even close? My vote is for the IRS. The Royal Navy is probably a distant third.

In order for someone to do something criminal, they have to have broken the law.

Obviously for the purposes of the US military, we have to refer to international law for the most part. Things such as the Geneva Convention would suffice.

One country declaring war upon another is not a war crime, nor does it always break international law.

If you must know where I stand, I am an opponent of the Iraq war, the Afghanistan one, and were I alive in the time of the Vietnam War, I would easily be against that as well.

But just because I think the wars are wrong does not make the US military a criminal organization. I should disagree with their political motives. Well the political motives of the US government. The military just does whatever the government tells them.

The definition of whether something is "criminal" or not, is whether or not they are breaking the law. A criminal is someone who breaks the law. It doesn't matter if their motives are "good" or "bad". Only if they are actually breaking the law or not.

Robbin Hood would be an example of the criminal. He broke the law, to help the poor. Regardless of how good his intentions were, he participated in illegal activities and therefore is a criminal. The same good be said of the hacker group "anonymous".

The US military has probably committed actual war crimes from time to time, but unless the frequency of them are common, it's not fair to say they're "the biggest criminal organization" in the world.

I disagree with just about everything the military does (as far as occupying other countries are concerned) but this does not make them criminal. In the same way that divorcing your wife who is dying of cancer is not criminal. It would make you a jerk, but is not breaking the law.

 

[Abegweit]

If you must know where I stand, I am an opponent of the Iraq war, the Afghanistan one, and were I alive in the time of the Vietnam War, I would easily be against that as well.

But just like Cheezy, you defend the scum who committed these atrocities. The disconnect is simply astonishing.

But just because I think the wars are wrong does not make the US military a criminal organization. I should disagree with their political motives. Well the political motives of the US government. The military just does whatever the government tells them.

Mass murder is mass murder. I agree that the scum in Washington who run the show are more culpable than the little men who are paid to do the dirty work. This does not excuse the latter for what they do.

The US military has probably committed actual war crimes from time to time, but unless the frequency of them are common, it's not fair to say they're "the biggest criminal organization" in the world.

One might make the argument that the mass murderers under Mao and Stalin were worse. Or that the scum in Israel and North Korea inflict more pain per soul under their respective thumbs. This is a fair argument. However, Mao and Stalin are long dead. And, revolting though they may be, Israel and North Korea are small countries.

On a global scale, who even comes close to the American military? Seriously. Kindly answer the question.

 

[caketastydelish]

But just like Cheezy, you defend the scum who committed these atrocities. The disconnect is simply astonishing.

Please point out where I said I agreed with them.

Mass murder is mass murder. I agree that the scum in Washington who run the show are more culpable than the little men who are paid to do the dirty work. This does not excuse the latter for what they do.

Thus case and point, "mass murder" is not illegal, unless it actually breaks the law. A lot of murders happened during the American civil war, but it was not a "criminal" war by any means.

One might make the argument that the mass murderers under Mao and Stalin were worse. Or that the scum in Israel and North Korea inflict more pain per soul under their respective thumbs. This is a fair argument. However, Mao and Stalin are long dead. And, revolting though they may be, Israel and North Korea are small countries.

Inflicting "pain per soul" is not always illegal. Let's say your boss fires you. He has probably inflicted pain upon your soul, but has not broken the law. Even if he had no adequate reason to fire you, it still isn't illegal.

On a global scale, who even comes close to the American military? Seriously. Kindly answer the question.

The global influence of the US military is unrivaled yet waning. But that's besides the point. Being the biggest player is not illegal. Doing illegal activities is illegal.

 

[Abegweit]

Please point out where I said I agreed with them.

Look, dude. Read the rest of this post you just made.

"mass murder" is not illegal, unless it actually breaks the law.

Oh. Very very true. Just who makes the laws? Convenient, isn't it?

 

[caketastydelish]

Look, dude. Read the rest of this post you just made.

I did, but still didn't see anywhere where I said I agreed with them. Care to point it out?

Oh. Very very true. Just who makes the laws? Convenient, isn't it?

For the purposes of this I'm going with international laws such as the Geneva convention. And no, the American government did not make them up. Nor are there double standards within them that favor America.

 

[Abegweit]

For the purposes of this I'm going with international laws such as the Geneva convention. And no, the American government did not make them up.

Of course the American government made it up. Just where do you get this nonsense from anyway?

Nor are there double standards within them that favor America.

LOL! If "international law" actually meant anything every American president since Johnson at least (with the possible exception of Carter) would have been strung up by the neck until dead. Instead they go after small fry like Milosevic and Kadaffi.

 

[caketastydelish]

Of course the American government made it up. Just where do you get this nonsense from anyway?

There are plenty of international treaties, but going back to the Geneva convention specifically, unless you can provide proof that the US government single handedly made it up, I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

LOL! If "international law" actually meant anything every American president since Johnson at least (with the possible exception of Carter) would have been strung up by the neck until dead. Instead they go after small fry like Milosevic and Kadaffi.

You'll have to name a specific international law, and point out where the US military broke it. And not just one "odd ball" occurrence. Unless it's not uncommon, it doesn't matter too much.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The US military is the greatest criminal organization on this planet. Nothing else comes even close. Occupation forces in 150 countries around the globe. Bullying and threatening smaller countries. Death squads operating in a half-dozen countries that we know about. There almost certainly are more.

By far the biggest killing machine since WWII with millions of victims. Three million Vietnamese. Perhaps a million Iraqis. And hundreds of thousands more in other countries.

Then there's the small losses. One Indian fisherman dead and several more wounded. Almost nothing in the grand scale of things. Still... do not forget just why his murderer was where he was. The goon was there to pick a fight with some nation chosen almost at random. One moment it's China. The next Russia. Then Venezuela. Or Libya. Or Syria.

For this gang, there always is somebody who needs to be bombed. In this case, it was Iran.

The people who work for the gang are not heroes. They are not serving their country. They are simply thugs. That is all.

As I understand it, you are an American kid. You need to understand just to what extent this gang has perverted your country and its morals. Out in the boonies virtually every family has members in this gang and they all have this fantasy about how the goons are protecting freedom. The waitress with a brother "serving" on the Abraham Lincoln. The roofer who boasts about his stint in Vietnam and how his father and all his brothers have "served" too. Every freekin' family is like this. Every freekin' one.

Then check out all the graveyards with all the little flags strewn all over the place. Now admittedly most of these people died in their sleep. However, they were busy killin' first.

I was revolted when I learnt the meaning of the acronym VFW. F for Foreign. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

When I meet people like this, I want to wring their necks, to scream at them. Don't you understand? Murder is not patriotic. It is evil. Unfortunately they would never understand. They are proud of what they have done. It's sick. Very very sick. Quite honestly I thought you had more sense. But it would appear that the programming goes deep.

When a communist disagrees with your universal condemnation of the military of an imperialist nation, you know that you're wrong.

The slime are the people who harness the good will and civic duty of our service men and women to further their imperialist ambitions, not the good people who answer the age-old call to defend home and family. These sailors could have never shot these fishermen had their ship not been deployed there. Don't fault people for defending themselves, fault the cause of them having to defend themselves in the first place.

 

[MobBoss]

No wimpier than anyone else acting macho on their computer. If this were a conversation happening at the local bar then obviously my opinion would be different.

Mine wouldnt.

Speaking as a character witness, Formaldehyde apparently has a coffee-bean roaster and grinder and likes fast cars. A man like that can't be all bad....

Coffee to Forma is navy to Patroklos. You don't see Pat walking into Forma's thread and calling him a coffee poser.

I give Forma props on being a NASCAR expert all the time and would really reconsider in taking him on in anything on that topic. I often wonder why non-military types feel the need to even attempt to stand toe to toe with other career military vets on things military. I guess some people like tilting at windmills....

 

[caketastydelish]

Back to the flaming. Great.

 

[MobBoss]

The US military is the greatest criminal organization on this planet. Nothing else comes even close. Occupation forces in 150 countries around the globe. Bullying and threatening smaller countries. Death squads operating in a half-dozen countries that we know about. There almost certainly are more.

By far the biggest killing machine since WWII with millions of victims. Three million Vietnamese. Perhaps a million Iraqis. And hundreds of thousands more in other countries.

Then there's the small losses. One Indian fisherman dead and several more wounded. Almost nothing in the grand scale of things. Still... do not forget just why his murderer was where he was. The goon was there to pick a fight with some nation chosen almost at random. One moment it's China. The next Russia. Then Venezuela. Or Libya. Or Syria.

For this gang, there always is somebody who needs to be bombed. In this case, it was Iran.

The people who work for the gang are not heroes. They are not serving their country. They are simply thugs. That is all.

As I understand it, you are an American kid. You need to understand just to what extent this gang has perverted your country and its morals. Out in the boonies virtually every family has members in this gang and they all have this fantasy about how the goons are protecting freedom. The waitress with a brother "serving" on the Abraham Lincoln. The roofer who boasts about his stint in Vietnam and how his father and all his brothers have "served" too. Every freekin' family is like this. Every freekin' one.

Then check out all the graveyards with all the little flags strewn all over the place. Now admittedly most of these people died in their sleep. However, they were busy killin' first.

I was revolted when I learnt the meaning of the acronym VFW. F for Foreign. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

When I meet people like this, I want to wring their necks, to scream at them. Don't you understand? Murder is not patriotic. It is evil. Unfortunately they would never understand. They are proud of what they have done. It's sick. Very very sick. Quite honestly I thought you had more sense. But it would appear that the programming goes deep.

Well this sounds more like the anti-establishment rantings ala the 'Loose Change' kind of mentality. Actual facts wont matter to such a person making these kind of comments. For example: His best killing machine since WWII comment is easily disproven. Hell, the purges in China under Mao are estimated to have killed somewhere between 49-78 million people; not to mention the millions killed by Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung. By those type of measurements the US Military are amateurs.

You're a good one to talk of 'programming'. All one has to do is read your comments to see the extent of it in your own case.

 

[Glassfan]

When a communist disagrees with your universal condemnation of the military of an imperialist nation, you know that you're wrong.

Well put.

 

[Glassfan]

Back on Topic.

In response to criticisms that the fishing boat was not warned, DoD has issued a preliminary statement asserting that it was:

Spoiler :

Pentagon defends Navy shooting in Persian Gulf
DEFCON Hill (Defense Blog)

Sailors aboard the Navy tanker USNS Rappahannock followed the proper procedure before firing on a civilian fishing vessel off the coast of the United Arab Emirates on Monday, despite reports the ship fired without warning.

"It remains our belief at this stage that warning measures were undertaken before shots were fired in this incident," Department of Defense Press Secretary George Little told reporters on Thursday.

"The incident remains under investigation, and we need to await the outcome of that investigation before reaching a final conclusion," he said, adding officials from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service were participating in the inquiry.

Stationed in the Gulf in support of the Navy's Fifth Fleet, the Rappahannock reportedly fired on the small fishing boat after it ignored warning shots and continued to approach the Navy ship, according to a Navy statement issued Monday.

When the boat did not respond to the warning attempts, according to the Navy, the Rappahannock fired .50-caliber machine gun rounds at the vessel.

The incident ended with one Indian fisherman injured and one killed. Little could not confirm reports that New Delhi was seeking compensation for the family of the slain fisherman.

“In accordance with Navy force protection procedures, the sailors on the USNS Rappahannock used a series of non-lethal, preplanned responses to warn the vessel before resorting to lethal force,” the Navy said.

“The U.S. crew repeatedly attempted to warn the vessel's operators to turn away from their deliberate approach," according to the service statement.

Meanwhile, A UAE General in Dubai is calling it a murder case;

Spoiler :

Dubai police chief: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen
MiddleEastOnline.com

DUBAI - Dubai's police chief has rejected US claims that a navy ship warned Indian fishermen to move away from it before firing and killing one of them after they failed to heed the order, media reported on Thursday.

The fisherman died and three others were wounded on Monday when the ship opened fire on their vessel near the port of Jebel Ali off Dubai in the tense waters of the southern Gulf.

The "Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy," General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.

"The crew ... told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it."

"According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth," the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.

On Tuesday, India urged the UAE to investigate the shooting.

Khalfan criticised the way the US ship had dealt with the incident, saying it had moved into international waters right after the shooting. Dubai police will deal with the case as a "murder," he said.

This may come down to whether a military policy is actually legal or not in the territorial waters of a foriegn country with different laws.

 

[holy king]

The US military is the greatest criminal organization on this planet. Nothing else comes even close. Occupation forces in 150 countries around the globe. Bullying and threatening smaller countries. Death squads operating in a half-dozen countries that we know about. There almost certainly are more.

By far the biggest killing machine since WWII with millions of victims. Three million Vietnamese. Perhaps a million Iraqis. And hundreds of thousands more in other countries.

Then there's the small losses. One Indian fisherman dead and several more wounded. Almost nothing in the grand scale of things. Still... do not forget just why his murderer was where he was. The goon was there to pick a fight with some nation chosen almost at random. One moment it's China. The next Russia. Then Venezuela. Or Libya. Or Syria.

For this gang, there always is somebody who needs to be bombed. In this case, it was Iran.

The people who work for the gang are not heroes. They are not serving their country. They are simply thugs. That is all.

As I understand it, you are an American kid. You need to understand just to what extent this gang has perverted your country and its morals. Out in the boonies virtually every family has members in this gang and they all have this fantasy about how the goons are protecting freedom. The waitress with a brother "serving" on the Abraham Lincoln. The roofer who boasts about his stint in Vietnam and how his father and all his brothers have "served" too. Every freekin' family is like this. Every freekin' one.

Then check out all the graveyards with all the little flags strewn all over the place. Now admittedly most of these people died in their sleep. However, they were busy killin' first.

I was revolted when I learnt the meaning of the acronym VFW. F for Foreign. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

When I meet people like this, I want to wring their necks, to scream at them. Don't you understand? Murder is not patriotic. It is evil. Unfortunately they would never understand. They are proud of what they have done. It's sick. Very very sick. Quite honestly I thought you had more sense. But it would appear that the programming goes deep.

this is kind of true. amongst other viewpoints.

 

[Patroklos]

This may come down to whether a military policy is actually legal or not in the territorial waters of a foriegn country with different laws.

Everything I have heard has the incident 30+ miles off the coast, so nowhere near territorial waters.

 

[Glassfan]

Everything I have heard has the incident 30+ miles off the coast, so nowhere near territorial waters.

This from CNN, 17Jul12:

Washington (CNN) -- A U.S. military supply ship fired at a small boat in the Persian Gulf on Monday after it came too close, killing one person onboard and wounding three, Defense Department officials said.

The USNS Rappahannock, a fuel resupply ship, fired on what two U.S. officials called a "small, white pleasure craft" 10 miles (16 kilometers) from the Dubai port of Jebel Ali.

The casualties were Indian fishermen, according to the United Arab Emirates' news agency WAM.

U.S. officials expressed their condolences and said the incident is under investigation.

The small boat appeared to be headed for that port, the Defense Department officials said, adding that their information was preliminary. The U.S. ship verbally warned the smaller boat when it was 1,200 yards (1,100 meters) away and fired at least one warning shot before the decision was made to fire shots to disable the boat, the officials said.