Shoshone Overview- Aimed at Deity Pangea play
- Thread starter Tich
- Start date
The "scare turns" start to come around turn 70. They basically never DOW you before then and by "basically" I mean I've like never been DOWed earlier than turn 66 or something. The reason why this kind of sucks is because this is basically "finish Library" time so that you can prep for the NC. You don't want to delay your NC either even if you do go to war.
My strategy for these spots is simple; play smart and plan ahead. Don't forward settle on them on flatland. Expand on hills and try and create chokepoints if possible. Try and position yourself behind rivers (you always to expand on fresh water after all) and never in front of them even if it means having a slightly worse city location. The next thing that you'll want to do is look for other neighbors. Zulu will DOW anything that moves and you can usually pay him to bug someone else. It's only a big problem if you're both isolated together or if you're blocking off his path to other players.
What I normally do in those spots is save my gold as much as possible for as long as possible. I try not to rush buy Libraries and whatnot. If need be I'll rush out some Archers/Walls and make a stand at my cities. The AIs are terrible at combat and give up insanely quickly. If you can whether the storm for ~5 turns then usually sign a treaty even if you're completely screwed if they keep pressing on. your goal isn't to win; it's merely to buy time. Kill melee units and use their numbers against them. Half the time they'll walk 10 archers/catapults around your city and block off any access that melee units would have. At that point you can just shoot things in the 2-ring until they give up and sign a treaty.
Most chokepoints that you're going to see are going to be created from mountains. You can sometimes plant cities in such a way that they can only be attacked from 1 tile if you're coming at it "from the front" since mountains will block most of the surrounding terrain off. While the city may be relatively undefended "from behind," hey, that doesn't matter. That's where you are after all. What you'll see a lot of people do is build a Fort/Citadel on the entrance tile and sit a melee unit on it and some ranged unit (Archer/Comp Bow) in the city. That will hold off even the biggest armies at most stages of the game.
Interesting post 
I have a few questions though.
1. What do you answer AI when he catches you spying? Say sorry and leave the city (for real, no lies!) or say that your spies go where they want and keep spying (does it not hurt your relations then?)?
2. Any wonders really worth building? Obviously AI will take most of them but apart from NC and Hubble which ones would you try at least?
3. When AI asks you to join his war, which is the best answer? Usually I say sorry, not interested but I am not sure if that is the best answer.
And I guess not much you can do if your neighbors choose a different ideology (and sometimes you lose happiness a lot) or is there? One of the reasons I dislike BNW and stick to G&K
Also culture is a problem for me since culture buildings generate much less culture than in G&K. I guess relying more on CS could possibly solve it.
Anyway, I played it today and won on T299 but was slowed down because my neighbor had a different ideology, so I had to change mine (went from 20+ to -5 happiness in a few turns). The only settings change was level - Immortal.
I have a few questions though.
1. What do you answer AI when he catches you spying? Say sorry and leave the city (for real, no lies!) or say that your spies go where they want and keep spying (does it not hurt your relations then?)?
2. Any wonders really worth building? Obviously AI will take most of them but apart from NC and Hubble which ones would you try at least?
3. When AI asks you to join his war, which is the best answer? Usually I say sorry, not interested but I am not sure if that is the best answer.
And I guess not much you can do if your neighbors choose a different ideology (and sometimes you lose happiness a lot) or is there? One of the reasons I dislike BNW and stick to G&K
Also culture is a problem for me since culture buildings generate much less culture than in G&K. I guess relying more on CS could possibly solve it.Anyway, I played it today and won on T299 but was slowed down because my neighbor had a different ideology, so I had to change mine (went from 20+ to -5 happiness in a few turns). The only settings change was level - Immortal.
Interesting post
I have a few questions though.
1. What do you answer AI when he catches you spying? Say sorry and leave the city (for real, no lies!) or say that your spies go where they want and keep spying (does it not hurt your relations then?)?
2. Any wonders really worth building? Obviously AI will take most of them but apart from NC and Hubble which ones would you try at least?
3. When AI asks you to join his war, which is the best answer? Usually I say sorry, not interested but I am not sure if that is the best answer.
And I guess not much you can do if your neighbors choose a different ideology (and sometimes you lose happiness a lot) or is there? One of the reasons I dislike BNW and stick to G&K
Anyway, I played it and won on T299 but was slowed down because my neighbor had a different ideology. The only settings change was level - Immortal.
1) I say sorry (but keep my spy there) why not? the AI does it all the time, and if they caught you spying, chances are you'll be in the red anyway. Always spy on faraway civs so that you don't go to war against a technologically superior enemy.
2) Petra and Hanging gardens, as well as Pyramids and Statue of Zeus are worth trying if they incorporate into your strategy (as you've noticed these are the wonders that not every civ/city can build. Very circumstantial, but take advantage of openings when you see one) Everyone keeps saying shoot for Oracle then get GE from liberty, but obviously Pacal or Rameses are not in their games; don't bother getting the Oracle when they are around as they will always beat you to it. You have to know which AI tends to go for which wonders (Persia will beeline Hanging gardens and Chichen Itza, Pacal will get Stonehenge, Oracle, then the theology wonders, Napoleon will get Notre Dame and Himeji Castle, and Hiawatha is notorious for Stonehenge/Statue of Liberty in GnK)
3) Say no if you are truly not interested (far away, and you don't have the military to match theirs) Otherwise, wait 10 turns, as you can still bail out. You need to make sure the AI you are going to war against is unpopular with the rest of the civs or at least some key civs (has a warmongering reputation or denounces everyone); then you will not get the warmongering penalty yourself so much. Never agree to it if the victim is a friend.
Interesting post
I have a few questions though.
1. What do you answer AI when he catches you spying? Say sorry and leave the city (for real, no lies!) or say that your spies go where they want and keep spying (does it not hurt your relations then?)?
I just keep it in there and tell him that they'll go where they please. I always pick civs far away from me to spy on usually. He's not going to DOW me from across the map and even if he does nothing will come of it. Just don't lie. I'm still able to DOF and sign RAs with people who catch me spying. Just never lie.
Obviously you can grab most of the national wonders. NC and Circus Maximus are essential and I always try and get Heroic Epic asap in my cap to pump out a ton of artists and GSes. That's all obvious though.
Oracle, Sistine Chapel and Porcelain Tower are all wonders that I've gotten and think are "gettable" something like 35% of the time. They're all worth getting as well. In general I don't bother with most non-Hubble wonders because I mean unless you have a ton of salt, wheat, cows, horses, stone, etc. it's just not really do-able in most games. It generally just wastes a bunch of time that could have been better spent. I dunno, for whatever reason I'm finding all wonders much harder to get then when BnW first came out. Seems like the AI prioritizes them all more now. Before I was consistently getting Oracle and Sistine but lately I've never come close. I've pretty much stopped trying because failing is the worst feeling ever.
Sorry not interested
And I guess not much you can do if your neighbors choose a different ideology (and sometimes you lose happiness a lot) or is there? One of the reasons I dislike BNW and stick to G&K
I always open Order and grab at least one of the +8 happiness perks. Usually both since you should be the first person to get an Ideology. Even if puts me to +25 happiness you'll need it when you suddenly find yourself losing 16 or more due to Ideological pressure. From there I typically get Worker's Facilities, pump out my Factories and get my Labs up and running. The game basically ends at that point.
As always I recommend getting a Mercantile CS ally, getting Circuses + Colosseums + Circus Maximus and opening both +8 happiness talents in Order. You may need a Zoo or two as well but you don't have to rush them normally. You NEED a happiness glut at all times for crap like that.
Copperwire
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 14
Nice guide. Long time ghost/first post. Deity on a good run player.
I have a few things to add, for once (I've kept ghosting often because by the time I logged and read a post you guys are on it) as I have spent the last few weeks running a 100 turn start with Shoshone each night after work.
Ruin Order:
1. If you move your settler to say plant on a hill, you will often have the opportunity to grab a ruin the turn you found your 1st city. You cannot use the culture for 5 more turns anyway, so under this circumstance pop first is clearly better. If nothing else, you tend to have at least 2 good squares and this will get your second pathfinder out sooner... which gives you more shots at more ruins etc ...
2. When you take a pop ruin you receive exactly the food to advance your pop one whole level. That means that (from epic epic cause it was on epic I did the math and kept notes) 1-2 is 22 food, and 2-3 is 26. Say you are 4 turns from going from 1-2 using a 2f/1h square. If, for instance, you have two 2f/1h production squares available you do not win anything by waiting (get 4 more food from the ruin for missing 4 hammers and 4 science...) and you slow your scouting (2nd path faster...). Basically, don't wait more then a turn to take the pop.
3. If you do make 3 pathfinders, an outcome that is worth noting is getting 2 CB upgrades and making sure your 3rd pathfinder gets some xp off barbs. The pathfinder gets the scout upgrade tree so 2 levels of survivalism (+50% def and heal 20 in any territory) means it can tank an early city no issue. 2 CB + a Pathfinder tank = free city. This is not the point of the OP guide so it is an aside, but worth knowing as you may get the opportunity even if you don't go out of your way for it.
4. Under some circumstances it is better to "bet" on ruins for early pop then to grow your cities the normal way at all. An example of this would be a capital plant with 2 sheep and a 2nd turn ruin. Basically, more early scouting > more pop then 2 grasslands (but < 2 oasis...).
Build Order:
All in all, I think the guide is dead on. There is only one deviation I really think needs to be mentioned and it is an early worker based entirely on your "hand":
1. Path -> Worker: 2 early salt justifies it. If you compare the range of possibilities you might get from getting a 3rd Path out 8-10ish turns early vs the quantifiable results of getting 2 salt producing and sold earlier, 2 salt wins.
2. Path -> Worker: Easy luxuries can justify it as well - if you don't have to change your tech order to get a few luxes seriously early (ie mining luxes) AND you meet civs early that are likely to take an early DoF AND you are playing on normal speed, the math says early worker is better then gambling on ruins. Here you have to compare average 3rd path results vs. 240g + delayed 3rd path results.
3. Last but not least, there are a few alternate build orders based on starting with a lot of forests and chopping hard early that are worth exploring.
Here is one: Assume you prioritize stealing one worker and build a second early (timed to build before stolen worker gets home so say for turn 30ish so this can be either P->W or P->P->W depending) and have 4 trees to chop. If you start 2 chops at the same time, flip to settler production for one turn before they finish, flip to your normal build order when chopped, and repeat the cycle, you pop a settler while only losing 2 (or less) turns of growth/production. If you have 8 forests OR settle a second city with 4 forests you can run this cycle twice with the same crew...
If you want to experiment with this, I'd suggest the Arborea map. Anyone can do it sometimes, but Shoshone can do it consistently.
Policy Stuff:
While it is not as clear cut as Poland, Shoshone are another viable exception to the don't split SP trees rule of thumb. While you don't get straight up free policies like Poland, you do tend to get more early culture then normal, have consistent outcomes where you get a lot of early cities up, have consistent outcomes where you found a pantheon early, and have a better shot at Oracle then most civs.
I've hit situations where both trad/lib and trad/piety were valid. Arguably, there are valid lib/piety situations as well (ie; jungle start with faith NW = +1 culture per jungle pantheon, fast settle NW + several early plants with jungle, and sprint for an early reformation/CV).
General Stuff:
Shoshone starts are about eXploring and eXploiting the terrain. Any civ CAN get the same outcomes with luck, but Shoshone needs far less luck and can do it faster.
The early intel mixed with your diverse build options (ie: see a faith NW and you have 4+ forests in initial capital radius = time a worker steal with a hard built settler, save a close hut for a pantheon, and start the planning for a logging plus wide faith based start / see a neighbor with a salt capital nearby = prioritize path-CB upgrades/path-tank xp farming / see initial conditions that make a run for a liberty GE Deity Petra possible = build early monument, plan for desert/culture pantheon, and swerve into liberty etc....) means you can see an gambit opportunity earlier and execute faster then any other faction.
The +15% in their own lands bonus, extra city sight radius, and option of an early CB means you can lean a little (about 1-3 fewer archers, depending) when deciding how many archers to build. Even on Deity, this can lead to situations where squeezing a wonder in is a little less suicidal... again, opening gambit options.
The bad news is either you use these early advantages to the hilt and get a good lead on the general timeline (which you might convert to eXtermination,
) or your boned, as late game you have nothing special going for you.
My apologies for the wall of text. Started typing and it just came out. Many thanks for this and the other guides and useful posts you have contributed.
- Copper
P.S. - Hi!
I have a few things to add, for once (I've kept ghosting often because by the time I logged and read a post you guys are on it) as I have spent the last few weeks running a 100 turn start with Shoshone each night after work.
Ruin Order:
1. If you move your settler to say plant on a hill, you will often have the opportunity to grab a ruin the turn you found your 1st city. You cannot use the culture for 5 more turns anyway, so under this circumstance pop first is clearly better. If nothing else, you tend to have at least 2 good squares and this will get your second pathfinder out sooner... which gives you more shots at more ruins etc ...
2. When you take a pop ruin you receive exactly the food to advance your pop one whole level. That means that (from epic epic cause it was on epic I did the math and kept notes) 1-2 is 22 food, and 2-3 is 26. Say you are 4 turns from going from 1-2 using a 2f/1h square. If, for instance, you have two 2f/1h production squares available you do not win anything by waiting (get 4 more food from the ruin for missing 4 hammers and 4 science...) and you slow your scouting (2nd path faster...). Basically, don't wait more then a turn to take the pop.
3. If you do make 3 pathfinders, an outcome that is worth noting is getting 2 CB upgrades and making sure your 3rd pathfinder gets some xp off barbs. The pathfinder gets the scout upgrade tree so 2 levels of survivalism (+50% def and heal 20 in any territory) means it can tank an early city no issue. 2 CB + a Pathfinder tank = free city. This is not the point of the OP guide so it is an aside, but worth knowing as you may get the opportunity even if you don't go out of your way for it.
4. Under some circumstances it is better to "bet" on ruins for early pop then to grow your cities the normal way at all. An example of this would be a capital plant with 2 sheep and a 2nd turn ruin. Basically, more early scouting > more pop then 2 grasslands (but < 2 oasis...).
Build Order:
All in all, I think the guide is dead on. There is only one deviation I really think needs to be mentioned and it is an early worker based entirely on your "hand":
1. Path -> Worker: 2 early salt justifies it. If you compare the range of possibilities you might get from getting a 3rd Path out 8-10ish turns early vs the quantifiable results of getting 2 salt producing and sold earlier, 2 salt wins.
2. Path -> Worker: Easy luxuries can justify it as well - if you don't have to change your tech order to get a few luxes seriously early (ie mining luxes) AND you meet civs early that are likely to take an early DoF AND you are playing on normal speed, the math says early worker is better then gambling on ruins. Here you have to compare average 3rd path results vs. 240g + delayed 3rd path results.
3. Last but not least, there are a few alternate build orders based on starting with a lot of forests and chopping hard early that are worth exploring.
Here is one: Assume you prioritize stealing one worker and build a second early (timed to build before stolen worker gets home so say for turn 30ish so this can be either P->W or P->P->W depending) and have 4 trees to chop. If you start 2 chops at the same time, flip to settler production for one turn before they finish, flip to your normal build order when chopped, and repeat the cycle, you pop a settler while only losing 2 (or less) turns of growth/production. If you have 8 forests OR settle a second city with 4 forests you can run this cycle twice with the same crew...
If you want to experiment with this, I'd suggest the Arborea map. Anyone can do it sometimes, but Shoshone can do it consistently.
Policy Stuff:
While it is not as clear cut as Poland, Shoshone are another viable exception to the don't split SP trees rule of thumb. While you don't get straight up free policies like Poland, you do tend to get more early culture then normal, have consistent outcomes where you get a lot of early cities up, have consistent outcomes where you found a pantheon early, and have a better shot at Oracle then most civs.
I've hit situations where both trad/lib and trad/piety were valid. Arguably, there are valid lib/piety situations as well (ie; jungle start with faith NW = +1 culture per jungle pantheon, fast settle NW + several early plants with jungle, and sprint for an early reformation/CV).
General Stuff:
Shoshone starts are about eXploring and eXploiting the terrain. Any civ CAN get the same outcomes with luck, but Shoshone needs far less luck and can do it faster.
The early intel mixed with your diverse build options (ie: see a faith NW and you have 4+ forests in initial capital radius = time a worker steal with a hard built settler, save a close hut for a pantheon, and start the planning for a logging plus wide faith based start / see a neighbor with a salt capital nearby = prioritize path-CB upgrades/path-tank xp farming / see initial conditions that make a run for a liberty GE Deity Petra possible = build early monument, plan for desert/culture pantheon, and swerve into liberty etc....) means you can see an gambit opportunity earlier and execute faster then any other faction.
The +15% in their own lands bonus, extra city sight radius, and option of an early CB means you can lean a little (about 1-3 fewer archers, depending) when deciding how many archers to build. Even on Deity, this can lead to situations where squeezing a wonder in is a little less suicidal... again, opening gambit options.
The bad news is either you use these early advantages to the hilt and get a good lead on the general timeline (which you might convert to eXtermination,
) or your boned, as late game you have nothing special going for you.My apologies for the wall of text. Started typing and it just came out. Many thanks for this and the other guides and useful posts you have contributed.
- Copper
P.S. - Hi!
Solid post.
For the record, when I say that you should "wait" on pop ruins I'm only talking like 1-2 turns tops. I just want people to check back at their main and make sure that it's not like 1 turn away or something silly. The simple fact that I explicitly state it will get people thinking about it and that's never a bad thing. I do agree that waiting 4 turns or whatever would just be terrible. I hope that that's not what I'm making it sound like.
With respect to grabbing a pop ruin on turn 1, yeah, sometimes that happens, but you can't really control it. It automatically picks for you if your city absorbs the ruin. I've definitely had it be food and it was definitely awesome but you can't really control that. I also agree that sometimes you get a turn 2 ruin when your Cap is only working a 2 food tile so it's sometimes correct to go for pop first. Unfortunately I've had some weird 1 ruin games where that's kind of screwed me over which is why I don't usually do it very often. 1 ruin is EXCEPTIONALLY RARE but I have started getting a few 1 and 0 ruin games (0 is just the worst feeling in the world really). If you get culture first nothing horribly bad can happen which is why I suggest doing it as a rule of thumb.
With respect to Path - Worker, I do agree that it does have its uses. Mining luxuries and plenty of forests to chop certainly qualify. What I will say is that my build has nothing to do with gambling on ruins. I don't make 3 Pathfinders because I expect to get 9 ruins. I get 3 Pathfinders because I want to steal a Worker, make a Comp Bow to clear barb quests and meet 7 civs + 16 CSes and find as many NWs as possible. My guide is geared towards Pangea play and I personally believe that most people grossly undervalue scouting on Pangea maps. It gets you a ton of information and gold early on and maximizes your DOF opportunities. You also want to meet as many CS as possible to pick up random friends as you progress.
I personally dislike Trad/Lib openers as Shoshone in general. I actually loathe Liberty to be perfectly frank. First of all, you have a good chance of being able to work many 2h tiles in your Cap to churn them out the hard way. Moreover, you have a strong chance of having forests that you can chop down. Yes, obviously you get those grassland/flood plains starts where it sucks to produce them. I get that. In general though you have the most production of any civ early on. It's not unreasonable to hit 5 pop but turn ~25 from pop ruins + 3 food tiles and then go on to work 5 2h tiles (horses, mines, mining luxuries, etc). Not every game obviously but more than any other civ.
Moreover I don't find that Shoshone gets a bunch more culture than normal. I can finish Tradition and dive straight into Rat + Secularism and then go Humanism usually into Free Thought. From there I can usually open Order, grab 2 Happiness tenets and get Workers Facilities at a decent pace. Still, I could never do all of this and also get Consulates or 2 pts in Liberty. It just doesn't happen. Ok, not never, but it only works if you can get Oracle really. It's so hard otherwise. I've played this civ a lot recently and I mean I find that culture is just such a pain.
I don't think that they're boned lategame at all tbh. They consistently have strong starts and strong starts lead to strong finishes. Doesn't matter what your UA/UB/UU is if you have the best terrain usually.
For the record, when I say that you should "wait" on pop ruins I'm only talking like 1-2 turns tops. I just want people to check back at their main and make sure that it's not like 1 turn away or something silly. The simple fact that I explicitly state it will get people thinking about it and that's never a bad thing. I do agree that waiting 4 turns or whatever would just be terrible. I hope that that's not what I'm making it sound like.
With respect to grabbing a pop ruin on turn 1, yeah, sometimes that happens, but you can't really control it. It automatically picks for you if your city absorbs the ruin. I've definitely had it be food and it was definitely awesome but you can't really control that. I also agree that sometimes you get a turn 2 ruin when your Cap is only working a 2 food tile so it's sometimes correct to go for pop first. Unfortunately I've had some weird 1 ruin games where that's kind of screwed me over which is why I don't usually do it very often. 1 ruin is EXCEPTIONALLY RARE but I have started getting a few 1 and 0 ruin games (0 is just the worst feeling in the world really). If you get culture first nothing horribly bad can happen which is why I suggest doing it as a rule of thumb.
With respect to Path - Worker, I do agree that it does have its uses. Mining luxuries and plenty of forests to chop certainly qualify. What I will say is that my build has nothing to do with gambling on ruins. I don't make 3 Pathfinders because I expect to get 9 ruins. I get 3 Pathfinders because I want to steal a Worker, make a Comp Bow to clear barb quests and meet 7 civs + 16 CSes and find as many NWs as possible. My guide is geared towards Pangea play and I personally believe that most people grossly undervalue scouting on Pangea maps. It gets you a ton of information and gold early on and maximizes your DOF opportunities. You also want to meet as many CS as possible to pick up random friends as you progress.
I personally dislike Trad/Lib openers as Shoshone in general. I actually loathe Liberty to be perfectly frank. First of all, you have a good chance of being able to work many 2h tiles in your Cap to churn them out the hard way. Moreover, you have a strong chance of having forests that you can chop down. Yes, obviously you get those grassland/flood plains starts where it sucks to produce them. I get that. In general though you have the most production of any civ early on. It's not unreasonable to hit 5 pop but turn ~25 from pop ruins + 3 food tiles and then go on to work 5 2h tiles (horses, mines, mining luxuries, etc). Not every game obviously but more than any other civ.
Moreover I don't find that Shoshone gets a bunch more culture than normal. I can finish Tradition and dive straight into Rat + Secularism and then go Humanism usually into Free Thought. From there I can usually open Order, grab 2 Happiness tenets and get Workers Facilities at a decent pace. Still, I could never do all of this and also get Consulates or 2 pts in Liberty. It just doesn't happen. Ok, not never, but it only works if you can get Oracle really. It's so hard otherwise. I've played this civ a lot recently and I mean I find that culture is just such a pain.
I don't think that they're boned lategame at all tbh. They consistently have strong starts and strong starts lead to strong finishes. Doesn't matter what your UA/UB/UU is if you have the best terrain usually.
Copperwire
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 14
Thanks. As usual, I agree with your counter points ... mostly
I have also had the dread 0-1 ruin start, but I've had more 9 ruin starts.
I am totally with you on the importance of scouting on Pangaea. Notice all my early worker examples were delayed Paths, not don't build more Paths. Watching Tommynt made me a believer long ago. In the same vein, I think people totally underestimate the value of gambling for ruins with Shoshone and the importance of having a good feel for the odds when doing it. Luckily, its not one or the other - poker with ruins and normal Pangaea exploitation run hand in hand.
Shoshone don't necessarily get much more culture or religion then anyone else, but they do often get more control of their ability to get either one; The consistent no shrine turn 20ish pantheon, extra initial squares per city, and good scouting can often hand you the opportunity to make one or the other happen. Again, gambit play.
I mostly agree with your bias towards Tradition. For many factions and VC I totally agree. In Shoshone I find a faction where sometimes I find reasons to not just blindly pick Tradition, and that is part of what I like about them.
Shoshone are a funny one on the whole Trad/Lib thing. The extra squares lessens the value of the Trad opener to some extent, but the strong production they tend to get early lessens the pain of hard building settlers. They complement both paths, unlike a lot of civs.
I play openings that I know are less then optimal because optimal all the time is boring, and slows progression. I am trying to teach myself to "play the map" rather then "play an opening on the map". My recent run of Shoshone gambit play was an attempt to stop playing Trad/SV over and over and it has taught me some new tricks.
Watching Moriarte changed my play a good bit. Partially because he seems to be having more fun the a lot of other players and partially because of the way he stops and tries to puzzle out the likely conflicts and paths of the AI's even though it is clear he has the skill and kps to rapidly play out a game plan, but also because I think I get what his openings are trying to do a little; he is trying to anticipate and adapt rather then just run the AI over with his science rocket or CB horde. Would you believe he makes it work and even does it consistently with less then optimal civs and starts? Cheeky.
I learned a long time ago no one masters anything only playing the way they have a bias.
I have also had the dread 0-1 ruin start, but I've had more 9 ruin starts.
I am totally with you on the importance of scouting on Pangaea. Notice all my early worker examples were delayed Paths, not don't build more Paths. Watching Tommynt made me a believer long ago. In the same vein, I think people totally underestimate the value of gambling for ruins with Shoshone and the importance of having a good feel for the odds when doing it. Luckily, its not one or the other - poker with ruins and normal Pangaea exploitation run hand in hand.
Shoshone don't necessarily get much more culture or religion then anyone else, but they do often get more control of their ability to get either one; The consistent no shrine turn 20ish pantheon, extra initial squares per city, and good scouting can often hand you the opportunity to make one or the other happen. Again, gambit play.
I mostly agree with your bias towards Tradition. For many factions and VC I totally agree. In Shoshone I find a faction where sometimes I find reasons to not just blindly pick Tradition, and that is part of what I like about them.
Shoshone are a funny one on the whole Trad/Lib thing. The extra squares lessens the value of the Trad opener to some extent, but the strong production they tend to get early lessens the pain of hard building settlers. They complement both paths, unlike a lot of civs.
I play openings that I know are less then optimal because optimal all the time is boring, and slows progression. I am trying to teach myself to "play the map" rather then "play an opening on the map". My recent run of Shoshone gambit play was an attempt to stop playing Trad/SV over and over and it has taught me some new tricks.
Watching Moriarte changed my play a good bit. Partially because he seems to be having more fun the a lot of other players and partially because of the way he stops and tries to puzzle out the likely conflicts and paths of the AI's even though it is clear he has the skill and kps to rapidly play out a game plan, but also because I think I get what his openings are trying to do a little; he is trying to anticipate and adapt rather then just run the AI over with his science rocket or CB horde. Would you believe he makes it work and even does it consistently with less then optimal civs and starts? Cheeky.
I learned a long time ago no one masters anything only playing the way they have a bias.
joshua43214
King
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2012
- Messages
- 985
So I have been kicking this around a bit. Just retired from a map where I thoughtlessly grabbed a worker off of the Assyrians. Turns out that he does NOT like being farmed for workers
to make a long story short, I got all his workers and all his cities, and Dido's cities, and Oda's (he hates warmongers!?) Cities...
The idea of slogging across a Pangaea map just makes me tired...
So moral of the story is...
Do not farm Assyria for workers.
to make a long story short, I got all his workers and all his cities, and Dido's cities, and Oda's (he hates warmongers!?) Cities...
The idea of slogging across a Pangaea map just makes me tired...
So moral of the story is...
Do not farm Assyria for workers.
I guess strategies based partly on luck have to be the norm because all games differ in the luck factor. In other words, being flexible to adapt away from the expected path.
For example, you mentioned being surrounded by 10 units - which is not uncommon in some games. But you didn't mention how the lost food/production/gold from those occupations (plus pillagings) can really mess up the expected path of growth and builds. The delays can throw you off 10-20 turns, at times.
For example, you mentioned being surrounded by 10 units - which is not uncommon in some games. But you didn't mention how the lost food/production/gold from those occupations (plus pillagings) can really mess up the expected path of growth and builds. The delays can throw you off 10-20 turns, at times.
First of all AIs do not pillage tiles basically ever. At least not in my experience. They just sit there and fortify once they get low. I've never (and that's not a hyperbolic statement) had an AI move in and pillage all of my stuff. I'd be very surprised to hear otherwise. I've seen them pillage 1-2 tiles tops by the end of a DOW but I mean that's fairly reasonable. Sure, you lose 6ish turns of growth, but meh, that's going to drastically reduce your win time.
With respect to wars stunting growth slightly, sure. That'll happen. Not sure what you want me to say about that though. It's no different than not getting a religion for Swords to Plowshares or not having lots of food/fresh water at your expos. Random stuff happens that will slow your wins slightly. That's civ.
With respect to adapting, I don't agree that you need to unless it's virtually impossible to expand 3 times. I do this BO blindly and I can basically trip over a sub-250 win assuming a reasonable map. If I'm literally locked into 2-3 cities then yeah, the win comes slower. If Zulu and Monty DOW me then yeah, the win is slower. Nothing will ever change that.
What I will say is that I think that most people grossly exaggerate how detrimental early wars are. Every time I get DOWed I do the exact same thing; rush buy Walls and an Archer. That's it. That's my magical solution that has never failed. Assy, Monty, Zulu, Oda, Iroquois, none of them can actually kill your city fast enough to avoid a peace treaty. After 6ish turns they will always sign it if you ask them. You don't need to win; you just need to not die immediately. All it takes is a bit of common sense with respect to city placement. If you're forward settling on a warmonger then you need to plant on a hill or behind a river. If you're not doing either then you don't have anyone to blame but yourself. It may not be in the best possible location but it's in one that enables you to not immediately lose the game. If you absolutely can't do either then you just have to keep a few meat shields around. 1-2 melee units is more than enough. You don't have to win, you just have to buy an extra turn or so.
Like, I dunno, I'm just really not getting this whole issue with warmongers thing that people keep complaining about. The AI is horrendously programmed.
Some things people tend to do wrong in early wars. Everything has been said already but I want to point it out again because I myself have done these mistakes a lot.
1) Settle on that hill !! Even if there is a cow or a horse in the 3rd ring you dont get. If you want to be save with minimal Military your Cities relly should be on a hill. Its getting you early Production which is essential for Libraries anyway.
2) Buy the Wall's at full Health. As soon as your City is at half health and you realize its getting close... its too late. Consider saving 400g if you dont have friends and or have foreward settled. Not only because of the City's health, with a weaker Citiy the attacks often dont quite kill stuff in 2 turns which means the enemy will insta heal, basicly adding another (half) unit.
3) Very often you have the possibility to take the Tradition Policy with 50% more Ranged Combat Strength. Its worth it, take it if you see war is comming.
4) If an army is walking towards you from an agressive Opponent he WILL dow you 80+% of the time. Prepare Immediately, get workers out and build that Archer, maybe switch to construction.
Talk to him and get his gold if you can.
5) Dont foreward settle into 2 Opponents even if it means you only get 3 Cities. I found it to be way more sucessful if you focus your expansion towards One enemy only.
Now the the most Important thing. DO IT. So may times I found myself letting the worker sit there thinking, "Maybe he waits two turns with the attack". Sap... Worker gone. Same with Walls even Pikes kill themselfs pretty quickly vs a strength 20 City.
1) Settle on that hill !! Even if there is a cow or a horse in the 3rd ring you dont get. If you want to be save with minimal Military your Cities relly should be on a hill. Its getting you early Production which is essential for Libraries anyway.
2) Buy the Wall's at full Health. As soon as your City is at half health and you realize its getting close... its too late. Consider saving 400g if you dont have friends and or have foreward settled. Not only because of the City's health, with a weaker Citiy the attacks often dont quite kill stuff in 2 turns which means the enemy will insta heal, basicly adding another (half) unit.
3) Very often you have the possibility to take the Tradition Policy with 50% more Ranged Combat Strength. Its worth it, take it if you see war is comming.
4) If an army is walking towards you from an agressive Opponent he WILL dow you 80+% of the time. Prepare Immediately, get workers out and build that Archer, maybe switch to construction.
Talk to him and get his gold if you can.
5) Dont foreward settle into 2 Opponents even if it means you only get 3 Cities. I found it to be way more sucessful if you focus your expansion towards One enemy only.
Now the the most Important thing. DO IT. So may times I found myself letting the worker sit there thinking, "Maybe he waits two turns with the attack". Sap... Worker gone. Same with Walls even Pikes kill themselfs pretty quickly vs a strength 20 City.
slowcar
King
Or talk to him and direct him to your other neighbor
The 6 turn survival is really important. You may see the situation as totally lost, and maybe it is, but the AI may not see it that way, they track their lost units and are out of their "its war, don't talk to me" phase.
Often they don't want a white peace, so maybe you are still going to die, but at least try to weather the storm instead of quitting, it often makes a difference.
UnofficialJoe
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2013
- Messages
- 36
I tend to prefer going liberty with the Shoshone since it really takes advantage of there UA borders, however it depends how close your neighbours are tbf.
I've never gone Liberty once as Shoshone in BnW and I've never regretted it. I think that people grossly exaggerate its usefulness. Getting 6 or more unique luxuries is a tremendous task in of itself and once you hit 5 or more cities you start to make neighbors angry and incite war. It also typically slows down your NC and your early growth which means that your overall wins will be slower than if you simply grew tall with 4. I dunno, I just like don't see any appeal to the tree. There is a good chance that you'll hit 4-5 pop in no time and be able to work a bunch of production tiles in your Cap so hard-building Settlers isn't even difficult in a good % of your games. I just don't agree that Liberty should ever be considered "the norm."
Anyways, updated things slightly. The build is getting pretty refined at this point. I'm happy with my BO and ruin order which are the 2 big things. If Oracle doesn't go on turn ~45 then it's usually fine to nab up until turn 100 so I've basically never lost it with my BO that gets it by turn 80. That makes getting Consulates easy mode and from there you can do your usual Rationalism shenanigans. And like, if Oracle does go on turn 40 you can just go straight Rati out of Tradition which is fine (unless you get a nice culture pantheon/CS ally obv).
For ruins I'm pretty sold on pop - culture - upgrade - pop ~~~ faith. Don't think that tech is needed since you end up getting your last 2 turns of Mining or whatever way too often in my experience. An early comp bow is just so useful for everything. Not getting a tech ruin does make hitting Renaissance a biiiiiiit dicey at times but it's usually manageable.
I totally agree with Tich. Tradition just looks better at the moment.
I tested the Strategy yesterday and I'm happy to say; it works like a charm! And even allows you to switch to any other victory condition after Education. I only got 3 Ruins and still managed to get a religion and the early culture. I traded for gpt for 100 turns because I had no friends. My Cap pumped 2 settlers at size 3 which delayed me. And still I was able to become tech leader at turn 140 or something.
No Oracle, only 3 Cities, finished Tradition then Rationalism (no Patronage), Spent money on Workers, Love the King Day's, Universities, Research Agreements, Factories, Public Schools . (Deity, Standard, Standard)
I tested the Strategy yesterday and I'm happy to say; it works like a charm! And even allows you to switch to any other victory condition after Education. I only got 3 Ruins and still managed to get a religion and the early culture. I traded for gpt for 100 turns because I had no friends. My Cap pumped 2 settlers at size 3 which delayed me. And still I was able to become tech leader at turn 140 or something.
No Oracle, only 3 Cities, finished Tradition then Rationalism (no Patronage), Spent money on Workers, Love the King Day's, Universities, Research Agreements, Factories, Public Schools . (Deity, Standard, Standard)
