Should husbands let their wives into the pit?

[BvBPL]

Let's say you go out to a show and you need to blow off some steam. So you down a few beers and head into the pit. You trash about, push people over, get knocked down, get picked up, and get thrown around. All in good fun. And then you're colliding with the edge of the pit and you have to stop short.

There's a woman in the pit.

Well, not actually in the pit, but right on the edge. Her husband (or boyfriend, or brother, or whatever) is behind her, holding his arms around her (which of course means that they can't push you back into the pit).

You don't want to accidently hurt her so you stop short, and fall down, and get stepped on.

Should husbands facilitate this behavior? Do husbands have a responsibility to prevent other people from being hurt in the pit by not bringing their wives right to the edge of the pit?

Now before I get ragged on for dissing the distaff, I am absolutely in favor of women in the pit. Women who can and will trash and push guys around. I was the first one to vacate when I heard in the 90's "girls to the front" at Bratmobile shows.

But when the wives are passive observers right at the edge of the pit, that's not just not punk but damn unsafe. You have to trust the other guys (and women) in the pit to push you back in when you hit the edge of the pit. Otherwise you're going to whack into someone or the floor.

So this isn't about women in the pit, bring them on, but about women standing at the edge of the pit, just starring into it.

In those situations where a passive woman (or man, I suppose) poses a danger to people in the pit, does the husband behind him or her have a responsibility to bring her out of the pit and into a quieter area?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

My opinion is that anyone, male or female, who does not plan to engage in pit behavior has no business being near it. You should be able to tell which shows a pit will form at based on the type of music, it's not that hard, there's no excuse. If it's a show where moshing is going to happen and you aren't down with that, stay away.

 

[Omega124]

Let's say you go out to a show and you need to blow off some steam. So you down a few beers and head into the pit. You trash about, push people over, get knocked down, get picked up, and get thrown around. All in good fun. And then you're colliding with the edge of the pit and you have to stop short.

There's a man in the pit.

Well, not actually in the pit, but right on the edge. His wife (or girlfriend, or sister, or whatever) is behind him, holding her arms around him (which of course means that they can't push you back into the pit).

You don't want to accidently hurt him so you stop short, and fall down, and get stepped on.

Should wives facilitate this behavior? Do wives have a responsibility to prevent other people from being hurt in the pit by not bringing their husbands right to the edge of the pit?

Now before I get ragged on for dissing the spear, I am absolutely in favor of men in the pit. Men who can and will trash and push guys around. I was the first one to vacate when I heard in the 90's "boys to the front" at Bratmobile shows.

But when the husbands are passive observers right at the edge of the pit, that's not just not punk but damn unsafe. You have to trust the other girls (and men) in the pit to push you back in when you hit the edge of the pit. Otherwise you're going to whack into someone or the floor.

So this isn't about men in the pit, bring them on, but about men standing at the edge of the pit, just starring into it.

In those situations where a passive man (or woman, I suppose) poses a danger to people in the pit, does the wife behind her or him have a responsibility to bring her out of the pit and into a quieter area?

Notice this sounds completely ridiculous once you swap the genders in this hypothetical. A spouse of either gender doesn't need to be sheltered; they can take care of themselves, thank you very much. If they're at the edge and not pushing, don't bother them. Push inwards. That's all there is to it.

 

[BvBPL]

I agree, Omega. The concern is not as much about whether or not women should be in the pit. It's whether people should bring their significant others to the edge of the pit without participating.

I do not want to discourage women, or men, from participating in the pit. All who are willing and able to participate should be welcome.

The problem is if you're circling around and getting shoved you can't necessarily not bother someone at the edge of the pit. Being at the edge of the pit involves, in my mind, a responsibility to engage with people in the pit in a safe manner.

 

[Omega124]

If women aren't the problem, then why do you single women out for 95% of the OP (including the poll and title)? That is pretty indicative of your bias towards them in this situation. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Also, once again:

If they're at the edge and not pushing, don't bother them. Push inwards. That's all there is to it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If women aren't the problem, then why do you single women out for 95% of the OP (including the poll and title)? That is pretty indicative of your bias towards them in this situation. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I thought it was indicative of the particulars of the anecdote used to illustrate the problem. In that case it apparently was a woman involved.

I think the whole insistence on 'person of unspecified gender' is generally just oversensitivity.

 

[Omega124]

I thought it was indicative of the particulars of the anecdote used to illustrate the problem. In that case it apparently was a woman involved.

I think the whole insistence on 'person of unspecified gender' is generally just oversensitivity.

Or, maybe, the constant identification of the person to blame as a "wife", and that OP is asking if "husbands" have a responsibility to keep said "wives" away from something like if they lord over them, is in fact indicative of a chauvinistic point of view (not necessarily intentional, but subconciously).

 

[Kozmos]

What is this pit ethics? If you get hurt in the pit that just makes it more metal man. While most pit rampages are sane enough to help pick bros and sis' up when they fall down being in the pit is inherently unsafe. Your pit behavior can't dictate the behavior of those outside the pit. Otherwise it would be a...pitiful state of affairs. What do you have against couples making a...pit stop?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Or, maybe, the constant identification of the person to blame as a "wife", and that OP is asking if "husbands" have a responsibility to keep said "wives" away from something like if they lord over them, is in fact indicative of a chauvinistic point of view (not necessarily intentional, but subconciously).

Could be. But again, the question is illustrated anecdotally, and the anecdote does involve real people of real gender. There is a valid question to be asked about the husband/wife labels, since it could just as easily be single people on a date or a couple in a relationship who don't feel a need for state licensing.

All that said, I was raised by a very feminist sister who is satisfied with my positions on gender equity...but I have in fact tucked wives and other women behind me at bar fights on more than a few occasions. There are real differences, and pretending there are not only makes the issue of gender equity seem silly, which makes it harder to discuss effectively.

 

[Omega124]

Could be. But again, the question is illustrated anecdotally, and the anecdote does involve real people of real gender. There is a valid question to be asked about the husband/wife labels, since it could just as easily be single people on a date or a couple in a relationship who don't feel a need for state licensing.

A way to present this thread anecdotally without making it sound incredibly sexist:

Thread Title/Poll: "Should non-moshers be near the pit?"

Thread OP (Paraphrased): "The last time I was in a concert, there was this couple standing near the edge of the pit, who were content to keep their arms around each other rather than push people in. In fact, this is an occurrence I see regularly, and I personally think this might be a safety hazard.

Do you think its a safety hazard, or am I just imagining it?"

Boom. Simple, recounts the experience of OP, without specifically blaming women for the issue at hand/suggesting its the male's responsibility to keep his wife in line. It's not that hard; I'd argue it's actually a more natural way to phrase the story, and that it required a specific frame of mind to go at the angle that OP did.

All that said, I was raised by a very feminist sister who is satisfied with my positions on gender equity...but I have in fact tucked wives and other women behind me at bar fights on more than a few occasions. There are real differences, and pretending there are not only makes the issue of gender equity seem silly, which makes it harder to discuss effectively.

And some women are the ones fighting in said bar fights, or perhaps shielding their husbands from the violence. We don't need an 1800s "women are delicate creatures" mentality influencing social norms in /2015/. It is not men's "responsibility" to look after women; we can do it ourselves.

 

[warpus]

The first issue is that husbands generally do not tell their wives what to do - it is often the other way around.

Second point - if you're standing at the edge of a mosh pit you have agreed to allow the possibility of your personal space being invaded, on short notice, by random body parts. That is the agreement you have made by deciding to stand there.

Having said that, as a mosh pit goer, you should be well aware of the fact that some people do not choose where they stand - and are in fact at times oppressed by members of the opposite sex, and even at times by members of the same sex as well.

As such you should mosh accordingly - making a mental map of the area, singling out any small-figured members near the edges to try to avoid, if possible. If not possible, these considerations might be overruled by the laws of physics - and in that case I say "Well, that's what you get for standing there"

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And some women are the ones fighting in said bar fights, or perhaps shielding their husbands from the violence. We don't need an 1800s "women are delicate creatures" mentality influencing social norms in /2015/. It is not men's "responsibility" to look after women; we can do it ourselves.

Here's a thought. Instead of lumping all women together into this homogeneous group of bar brawlers perhaps you should speak for yourself.

I, by the way, would be more than satisfied to step behind someone bigger than me when a fight breaks out, because I have no chip on my shoulder telling me to prove something. If you are six four two seventy you qualify. Come on down and we can hang out.

 

[Omega124]

The first issue is that husbands generally do not tell their wives what to do - it is often the other way around.

And I thought OP was being chauvinistic. Then I read this post. 12/10 gg wp.

Do agree with most of the rest of your post but that first line was kind of uncalled for.

Here's a thought. Instead of lumping all women together into this homogeneous group of bar brawlers perhaps you should speak for yourself.

Because the crux of my argument somehow isn't that women should be able to speak for themselves and not have their husbands speak for them.

I, by the way, would be more than satisfied to step behind someone bigger than me when a fight breaks out, because I have no chip on my shoulder telling me to prove something. If you are six four two seventy you qualify. Come on down and we can hang out.

OK, but I'll have to ask the mister first, since he controls everything I'm allowed to do.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Hold on. He already said that women decide what to do more often than men. Therefore, obviously, it's the woman's fault for entering the ring!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Because the crux of my argument somehow isn't that women should be able to speak for themselves and not have their husbands speak for them.

Yet you somehow take offense at the idea that many women would be more than happy to put a meat shield between themselves and a fight...if that meat shield has a gender. Maybe they just don't feel like they have as much to prove for womankind and they are contentedly speaking for themselves.

 

[Omega124]

Yet you somehow take offense at the idea that many women would be more than happy to put a meat shield between themselves and a fight...if that meat shield has a gender. Maybe they just don't feel like they have as much to prove for womankind and they are contentedly speaking for themselves.

All that said, I was raised by a very feminist sister who is satisfied with my positions on gender equity...but I have in fact tucked wives and other women behind me at bar fights on more than a few occasions. There are real differences, and pretending there are not only makes the issue of gender equity seem silly, which makes it harder to discuss effectively.

Not once did you ever say the girls wanted to be tucked; just that you tucked them. Then you implied that because of gender differences, that women should be tucked away from fights, presumably because women are took weak/frail. What other possible conclusion is there to be had other than "This person is saying that women shouldn't be allowed to fight/be near fights"?

Also, I never took any offence to any girl who doesn't want to get physical. I took offence that men are telling me that I, as a woman, shouldn't get physical. Which seems to be the general theme of this thread.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Unlike many men, if a woman wants to pick a fight I will let her fight it. If they want to pick a fight with me I make them work a little harder than I would make a man work, because I know that no matter how much they talk about wanting equal treatment, when law enforcement shows up I am going to get far worse results than I would if I beat down a man who picks a fight, and the woman will be perfectly happy to let that happen without confronting the cops and demanding equality.

But when a bar fight is starting nearby it really isn't the time to stop and discuss gender equity or anything else. I'd give hundred to one odds that in the heat of the moment even a highly liberated bar brawling femme fatale such as yourself would just say, "Meat shield. Cool." Even if it was a total stranger and quite likely chauvinist who stepped between you and the fight.

 

[Omega124]

I'd give hundred to one odds that in the heat of the moment even a highly liberated bar brawling femme fatale such as yourself would just say, "Meat shield. Cool."

As a person who has been in a school fight (No bar fights since I'm not that old yet): No. I'm not like that at all. :|

 

[Borachio]

Wow! Just wow!

There's places like this in the world?

I never go to "shows", by which I take it you mean pop concerts. And I really don't like crowds of any kind. But if I do go to any show (of a theatrical, or musical, nature), I pay for a seat, and I sit in it.

I would willingly pay to avoid any "pit". I'm frankly appalled by the very idea, and paying good money for it, well... (But, it should go without saying, anyone who likes it is perfectly at liberty to risk life and limb, in my book. A bit like a ball pit thing for kids, is it?)


Link to video.

Er. Nope.

 

[nc-1701]

I think it's a heavy metal thing... I've been to a handful of Hip-Hop shows, I remember the last one I was we were up at the front and some dude started doing that. Everyone was like WTH? And security kicked him out.
Personally my feeling whenever I'm out (especially with my girlfriend, but alone too) at bars or clubs or whatever is that I expect to be bumped into. But at the same time it's my body and you better not come flailing in and hit me if you don't want to get hit back.
Oh and I walk and stand wherever I want. Come at me.

So basically I disagree with every single thing in the OP