Should I sign the MPP?

[Exsanguination]

In my current game, I have encountered the option to sign a very interesting and prospective MPP. What does that mean? I could sign an MPP with Greece (who has an MPP with Egypt and Russia, and Russia has an MPP with Germany, who also has an MPP with England - leaving China in the dust). Obviously, if I sign with any of these players, I basically have full world support.

I have NEVER signed an MPP before, and before I do I wanna hear about your experiences. Does the AI commonly back out of MPPs? Do they keep their word? What would happen if I signed with Greece and declared war on Germany?

Ayayay... so many decisions. What should I do? (oh yea - btw, I have a 'strong' military [almost 200 units], and most other AI civs have smaller militaries than I. We are in the late Industrial Age).

 

[SirPleb]

The AIs will always honor MPPs. If you have an MPP with Greece, and Germany then attacks one of your units (outside of German territory), Greece will go to war with Germany. (And, if Greece had an MPP with Germany, it is cancelled by that action.) This will happen even if you were the one that declared war - once Germany attacks you, the MPP is triggered.

MPPs work automatically in both directions. If you have MPP with Greece and Germany attacks Greece, you will automatically go to war with Germany. You won't have the option of reneging on the MPP, you'll be at war.

The only exception I've seen is when I had an MPP which was still in effect after its 20 turns had passed. I then went to war with another Civ and before they attacked me, my MPP partner cancelled our MPP (since its 20 turns were past.) They used that to get out of going to war.

In your current situation things could get tricky. If you MPP with Greece and then attack Germany, Russia and England will declare war on you. What happens next depends on who actually fights who in what order. If you then attack a Russian unit, before anyone has attacked your units, Greece and Egypt will join the war against you. (Greece will honor her MPP with Russia if you attack first. With you if Russia attacks first.)

OTOH, if you MPP with Greece and then declare war on Germany, but do NOT attack Germany for a while, things could go quite differently. If Germany attacks you after you've declared war, Greece will take your side. Next, if Germany attacks Greece, Russia will also join against Germany. Eventually it could be you, Greece, Russia and Egypt against Germany and England.

I just love MPPs when they get as complicated as the set you are facing! There is probably an opportunity there for you to make things unravel into a set of wars that will be just what you'd like. The problem now is how to trigger the right domino effect. You'll have to consider which of these Civs have adjacent borders and are therefore likely, once they've declared war, to actually assault each other and thus trigger the next MPP in the chain. Once you factor that in, you can probably take just one MPP with someone, declare war on someone else, and get things to fall into place just as you want them to. Good luck, hope I'm right about that!

 

[Furry Spatula]

Well yes they do always declare war, but they wont do it on the first turn some times. I have had to wait 5 turns or so to get some civs to honor the MPP's. Thus throwing off my plans. Now i have learned.

 

[SirPleb]

Another thing, I forgot to mention in earlier note: Don't forget to consider the effect of ROPs when you plan to trigger a domino effect. For example, suppose that Greece is geographically between you and Egypt, separating you from direct contact with Egypt. And that Greece also currently has ROP with Egypt as well as MPP. If you take MPP with Greece, then declare war on Egypt, and then don't attack Egypt, what will probably happen next is: Egypt will send a unit through Greece and attack you. Greece will declare war on Egypt and thus cancel their MPP and ROP. Now you have Greece and Egypt at war, and there's no way for Egypt to attack you without coming through Greece first. This can be quite effective But of course you must be prepared for the downside too: if anyone else joins the war against Greece, you'll have to take Greece's side.

 

[Exsanguination]

thanks SirPleb. I'm playing an islands game (all civs have their own little island), so no borders touch. I see what you mean by a domino effect. One question: do MPPs automatically send a civ to war, or does the civ have to react and conciously declare war?

My problem is, I'm only 5 cities, while the rest are about 15, so they like to try and bully me (even though 3 are gracious and the rest are polite). I hate giving in, so I usually don't, sending down my approval rating (I'm no. 1, however). My military is very strong, but I'm not sure whether strong enough.

Last question - how long do MPPs last? Are they a 20-turn deal? Or are they just until one of the civs cancels them? If the latter case - hell, I'll sign!!

 

[BillChin]

AI Civs will honor MPPs. However, I have been attacked by a Civ that I have a MPP with.

A player with a relatively weak military and/or Democratic (non-religious) government may want to stay out of MPPs. The weak military reasoning is kind of obvious. An unexpected war can often topple a Democracy quickly because there is no way to make peace quickly. This applies more to Monarch difficulty and above. On the lower difficulties, War Weariness is not so severe.

 

[Catt]

A couple of things:

1. BillChin is correct. I have been attacked by my MPP allies (once only two turns into the MPP that my "ally" asked for!).

2. The MPP will force a declarationof war if the triggering event occurs. This means that neither the AI nor the human has the option to breach the MPP -- if a triggering event occurs, war is automatically declared. What is the triggering event? Having a unit attacked when it is in neutral or home territory. Example: If I have an MPP with Russia and I invade Germany, Germany can freely attack any of my units within its own territory without forcing Russia into war -- neither my declaration of war nor Germany's self-defense forces Russia to honor its MPP. The MPP will be triggered and Russia will declare war on Germany only at the first German attack on my units that occurs outside of Germany's own territory. (Remember its a mutual protection pact, not a mutual agression pact).

3. In addition to BillChin's warning about MPPs with a weak military and/or a non-religious civ (war weariness), also carefully consider your trading relationships. If you are actively trading for resources, depending on the chain of attacks (and thus the triggering events), you could suddenly find yourself without luxuries or strategic resources that are vital to your war effort.

 

[dojoboy]

I highly recommend against MPPs. Not saying I won't sign one if the situation is right, but Exsanguination, it doesn't sound as if you need one w/ such a large military. The MPP would be for them, not you, because maybe they're planning to go to war and want you on their side!

 

[Exsanguination]

Originally posted by dojoboy
I highly recommend against MPPs. Not saying I won't sign one if the situation is right, but Exsanguination, it doesn't sound as if you need one w/ such a large military. The MPP would be for them, not you, because maybe they're planning to go to war and want you on their side!

yes, that is true - but my worry is that they all go to war with me since I'm the smallest and act the 'nicest'. They probably think I'm quite weak. 7 civs vs me - not even my military could hold that back!

 

[RufRydyr]

:rocket:
Nuking a civ seems to get everyone else to declare war on me. I've found that be signing an MPP with everyone except my intended victim they don't declare war on me.
In my current game I could build component #10 of the spaceship, but I want a higher score. India had built 9 components and just discovered the last tech to build #10 and their capital was size 27. So, I moved about 6 modern armor beside his capital and nuked 1 square over from his capital on the opposite side of the metro (leaves road intact on one side and doesn't kill my units). Then I took the capital which destroyed his spaceship, sold the improvements, and disbanded the city. hehehe. I'm mean. Well heck, he was gonna take it back, so why not destroy the production and culture? Since I was surrounded on all sides and my border with India was long, I didn't have enough units to protect all my cities, but nuking his 30 unit stacks of mech inf. sure was fun. Now I've got my cities back from him and everybody else is attacking him. I'm about to do the same thing to Persia. Everybody is furious with me, but I've got lots of Modern Armor and the United Nations, so I'm on track for my best score ever.
oops. Looks like I rambled on a bit.
In general, I don't sign MPPs because I don't like automatically declaring war on a civ. On this game I haven't reloaded once and plan to play that way from now on, but in the past I was able to reload and sign an MPP which someone that had attacked me and avoided WWIII by doing so. Whenever the others perceive weakness--look out. When signing an MPP sign it with the strongest civ. It might keep him off your back and the other civs should think twice about messing with you and a strong civ.
g/l
:rocket:

 

[Higher Game]

MPPs are good because they are more of a ward against war. Other civs will think twice before they mess with you. However, I think making an alliance after war has started is better. It is almost always a serious punishment for the enemy, and you don't have to worry about helping your ally out when he's in trouble. Alliances are more expensive, however. Sign the pact it they aren't asking for money or techs. Don't worry about sending help to them, there is no way China would be so dumb as to attack the rest of the world.

 

[Concona]

I don`t really agree to that because when i had a alliance with 4 players and I am a friend of the french but the french are not in friendship with the zulu`s so the french or the zulu`s ask me for help but when i declare war on one of them the other countries also start a war with me it`s a real domino effect

And you don`t want a world war!!

So you really have to think good who have a alliance with each other and who don`t

 

[BCLG100]

a world war can be of benefit cos then they will all fall behind in the tech race building cultural improvemets and there militry will be scaled down

 

[RufRydyr]

Originally posted by BCLG100
a world war can be of benefit cos then they will all fall behind in the tech race building cultural improvemets and there militry will be scaled down

I love it when everyone else is at war and I'm not involved. I totally agree with BCLG100. Sometimes I'll build settlers and scoop up land left vacant be wars. hehehe. I love free land.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Exsanguination
Last question - how long do MPPs last? Are they a 20-turn deal? Or are they just until one of the civs cancels them? If the latter case - hell, I'll sign!!

I'm just catching up, maybe this doesn't matter anymore but in case: MPPs last a minimum of 20 turns. After that either party can cancel the deal any time. It does continue to run after the 20 turn mark until one of the parties cancels it. I think that the only way out of an MPP before it expires is to go to war with the other party.