Should Order have an "influence city-states" tenet?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Gort, Oct 5, 2013.

  1. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    After playing a bunch of BNW, I've noticed that Freedom's "Treaty Organisation" tenet is very powerful. By switching your trade-routes to city-states, you can be gaining a total of 32 influence with city-states per turn. (8 trade routes, 4 influence each)

    The effect tends to be that a human player going Freedom is on a timer before they win a Diplomatic victory. You'd need a lot of gold income to equal 32 influence per turn, and the Freedom player will have his own gold income as well.

    I have noticed while following this strategy that you get occasional AIs that go Autocracy, and take the "Gunboat Diplomacy" tenet, which gives them 6 influence per turn with any city-state they can bully. A high-difficulty lategame AI will have an enormous carpet of units in their territory, so will be basically using this every turn on any nearby city states, which is often three or four. As a result, these city-states end up so influenced by the Autocratic AI that they're basically irrecoverable - the AI has hundreds upon hundreds of influence with the city-state, so much that your coup chances are zero and it would cost thousands of gold to match their influence, and they'd just get more.

    So far so good - Freedom has a wide-ranging but less powerful effect, and Autocracy has a more powerful localised effect.

    The problem comes when, as others have noticed, lots of the AI go Order. Order gets nothing like these tenets to give it free influence. It only takes a Freedom player 15 turns to go from zero to allied with a city state, and an Autocracy player can do it in 10, and the result is a walkover diplomatic victory.

    I'd like to see Order given something similar to these tenets - after all, early Communist theory emphasised a global revolution, and the Communist International (Comintern) was set up to achieve it. Perhaps a tenet called "Political Infiltration" which gave you influence per turn in a city state you have a spy in? Put it as a rank 3 tenet so it's balanced with Autocracy and Freedom's equivalents.

    The next question would be - how much influence should it give per turn? Autocracy's tenet is hard to set up - you have to get a bunch of units to the city-state and keep them there. Freedom's is easier - you just need a trade route. However, it is vulnerable to attack in wartime. Since spies can't be stopped, but are generally less numerous than trade routes, a value of 4 or 5 influence per turn would be best?

    I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts - particularly on which level 3 Order tenet it might replace, or on why this is all a terrible idea :)
     
  2. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    I say it shouldn't because then Order would become a OP ideology, as it would help you with all victory types. Besides, with your idea, order spies would have 3 means of maintaining allies excluding quests and gold:
    - the vote-rig (increase influence by 20 every 15 turns; standard speed)
    - the coup (remove enemy influence over CS)
    - Political infiltration (generate influence in CS per turn)

    Stealing a CS from an Order civ, let alone with patronage (and let alone Greece), would be so improbable it's not funny. :eek:

    You could argue that volunteer army in freedom might help you win a domination victory but the foreign legions are mainly designed for defence
     
  3. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Right, a unit that gets a combat bonus outside friendly territory is mainly designed for defense. :crazyeye:

    I could see Order getting a Level 1 or 2 CS related tenet since, despite the advertising to the contrary, Freedom and Autocracy both have tenets for win conditions they aren't supposed to be good at. Freedom has Volunteer Army and Arsenal of Democracy while Autocracy has Industrial Espionage (yeah it only works when you're behind but the trouble with beating the AI at science is always getting the lead, not maintaining it).

    Maybe Order could give something similar to Siam's UA, where they don't get any bonuses in getting allies but the quality of the allies they have is boosted.
     
  4. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Each ideology is designed to help you reach 3 of the 4 victory conditions. They intentionally left one out for each ideology. Hence, Order does not have a way to help with city-states, nor should it. Order is plenty strong already as it is, and diplomatic victories are already easy enough as it is. No reason to make either of them stronger or easier.
     
  5. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    I don't see why it is particularly needed. If you want to play a game with CS Influence, pick Freedom or Autocracy. If you want to deny a diplo win, just conquer the CS instead. Order gives all kinds of bonuses to having more cities, so just absorb them into your empire.
     
  6. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    defence also = counter-offensive. It's the sort of tenet you get when you believe the best defence is a good offence.
     
  7. cpm4001

    cpm4001 Goggleman

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    Yeah, it's best for Order not to have a tenet like that - it would completely unbalance the tenets and make you just pick Order all the time.
     
  8. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    That's funny - I always find myself going Freedom for an easy diplomatic win. That is, if I'm not going to be completely pummelled in the Tourism game.
     
  9. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Each ideology is supposed to be good at certain victory types.

    You are asking for order to be good at all of them. You are SUPPOSED to go freedom or autocracy if you want an easier diplo victory, that is by design.
     
  10. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    This doesn't really apply to Civ. There's enough of a cost to taking cities and defense is so easy that there's no real incentive to conquer unless you want the turf. Time spent mounting your counter offensive could be spent building Public Schools or Wonders.
     
  11. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    Hence the volunteer army gives you 6 free units straight off the bat so you can work on those buildings/wonders. It's supposed to be an emergency policy. Never get it unless your civ is in a state of emergency.

    Also works well for Brazil civ once you upgrade them and send them off hunting golden age points.
     
  12. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    That still doesn't account for Arsenal of Democracy. The straight military production bonus is better than anything Order has that's directly related to warfare.

    I still think it would make sense for Order to get a Comintern tenant that increases the quality of your allies. Boosts city-states without actually contributing to a diplo victory.
     
  13. Chapel

    Chapel Chieftain

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    Yeah I have to agree that Order could use a boost. Freedom gets a city combat bonus boost for defense and then gets the tenants for 6 free units and also a unit production boost. It seems a lot more combatively oriented to me than I think it should be. Honestly the arsenal of democracy power seems to me like it would be better to call it something else and give it to Order.
     
  14. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Order is probably already the strongest ideo, does it really need to be stronger?
     
  15. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Order might not get 15% to military units, but it gets +1 production per mine/quarry and +3 production per city. It gets more production to everything.
     
  16. cpm4001

    cpm4001 Goggleman

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    Plus it gets the bonus Science and reduced build time for Factories, which will make you want to build those even more. Seriously, Order as it stands is probably the strongest of the Tenet trees.
     
  17. NyQuil

    NyQuil Chieftain

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    I have gone through every victory type and I still find myself picking Order virtually every time.
     
  18. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    Really? What difficulty do you play on?
     
  19. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Go up a difficulty, play a bad start. Learn to love Autocracy.

    I said directly related to warfare. I'm more talking about game design than balance here, Order is supposed to be a "warmonger" tenant but it's Level 3 is absolute crap and everything else it has is equally applicable to the other victory conditions.
     
  20. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    I agree that something that represents Comintern would be interesting from a thematic perspective although I think it's a good ideology already, especially post patch - T3s are very good now, and T1s and 2s were already very good.
    Maybe someone will mod in additional tenets but I don't think Firaxis will do it as this would likely involve removing an existing tenet.
     

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