Should pillaging have a downside?

[DanQuayle]

A simple solution would be to use the target's tech/civic progression to calculate the pillage yields, but an even better solution would use "the number of techs unlocked by the target and not discovered by the raider" as the base factor entering in the pillage science yield (similarly to Peter's UA). You can do the same for civics and culture pillage yields. Thus, pillaging the amphitheaters of the culture leader would provide incredible culture yields, but pillaging the amphitheaters of a civilization lagging culturally would not provide much. This factor could also enter in the calculation of AIs' decision of who to attack (ie potential rewards). (An alternate, but more complicate solution to implement would be to get a fixed percentage, like 10%, of science for all techs you have not researched yet, but the target has when you pillage.)

To be clear, the solutions I propose are the following (in order of simplicity and inverse personal preference)

1. Use the target's tech/civic progression to calculate the pillage yields
   
2. Use the the number of techs unlocked by the target and not discovered by the raider
3. Use a fixed percentage, like 10%, of science for all techs you have not researched yet, but the target has when you pillage

(1) If you are far ahead and pillage civilizations that are behind, you will still get some pillage yields, but less than what is currently the case.
(3) provides zero pillage yields when the target has no tech (or civic) that you have not researched yet. If you target to pillage a civ that is far ahead of you, the potential reward is high, but the risk is also most likely greater since the target civ is more advanced. This makes pillage 100% a rubberband mechanic that is only used to close the gap with other civilizations (like spies stealing tech boosts). The yields you would get from pillage would not necessarily contribute to what you are currently researching, but directly to techs/civics that you have not discovered yet, but that the target of pillage has.
(2) like (3) is 100% a rubberband mechanic, the pillage yields can however be used to research anything that you are currently researching. Another potential problem for (2) is that a 10 tech gap in classical era should not provide the same pillage yield as a 10 tech gap in the atomic era. So an hybrid approach between (1) and (2) may need to be used with a formula that looks something like this:
pillage yield = (target's tech progression) + (target's tech progression) * (number of techs unlocked by the target and not discovered by the raider)

I could see a loyalty modifier for occupied cities that were really wrecked but they already have reduced growth and start with lower loyalty. Adding loyalty penalties would likely just speed up "pillage, capture, repair and lose just to pillage again" exploits.

The most important pillage yields (culture/science) come from districts (except for Norway). If the city you conquer flips too fast, you'll not have enough time to repair buildings/districts. "Flip cities" can thus only be "farmed" for gold/faith (with military units and builders).
A "cooldown mechanic" which is used in Crusader Kings as someone else mentioned might be a possible avenue to fix this particular problem.
If my proposed solution of using the total gold output of the target to calculate the pillage yield is used, in this case since you are pillaging the improvements of a free city, the total gold output of the free city is sure to be really low (far less than a civilization constituted of many cities) and thus the gold pillage yields will also be really low making this strategy nearly worthless.

However, this city flipping strategy hides in my view another bigger problem: that you can predict exactly when (what turn) a city will flip/rebel. If in reality you could predict exactly when rebellions would happen they never would since you would think "their owner" would do what is necessary to quell them (kind of like an experienced player just moves governors around and slots the policies that provide loyalty when needed and never loses a city to declining loyalty). This concerns the previous issue I mentioned about how loyalty is calculated and how rebellions (flips) happen.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

To be clear, the solutions I propose are the following (in order of simplicity and inverse personal preference)

1. Use the target's tech/civic progression to calculate the pillage yields
   
2. Use the the number of techs unlocked by the target and not discovered by the raider
3. Use a fixed percentage, like 10%, of science for all techs you have not researched yet, but the target has when you pillage

(1) If you are far ahead and pillage civilizations that are behind, you will still get some pillage yields, but less than what is currently the case.
(3) provides zero pillage yields when the target has no tech (or civic) that you have not researched yet. If you target to pillage a civ that is far ahead of you, the potential reward is high, but the risk is also most likely greater since the target civ is more advanced. This makes pillage 100% a rubberband mechanic that is only used to close the gap with other civilizations (like spies stealing tech boosts). The yields you would get from pillage would not necessarily contribute to what you are currently researching, but directly to techs/civics that you have not discovered yet, but that the target of pillage has.
(2) like (3) is 100% a rubberband mechanic, the pillage yields can however be used to research anything that you are currently researching. Another potential problem for (2) is that a 10 tech gap in classical era should not provide the same pillage yield as a 10 tech gap in the atomic era. So an hybrid approach between (1) and (2) may need to be used with a formula that looks something like this:
pillage yield = (target's tech progression) + (target's tech progression) * (number of techs unlocked by the target and not discovered by the raider)



The most important pillage yields (culture/science) come from districts (except for Norway). If the city you conquer flips too fast, you'll not have enough time to repair buildings/districts. "Flip cities" can thus only be "farmed" for gold/faith (with military units and builders).
A "cooldown mechanic" which is used in Crusader Kings as someone else mentioned might be a possible avenue to fix this particular problem.
If my proposed solution of using the total gold output of the target to calculate the pillage yield is used, in this case since you are pillaging the improvements of a free city, the total gold output of the free city is sure to be really low (far less than a civilization constituted of many cities) and thus the gold pillage yields will also be really low making this strategy nearly worthless.

However, this city flipping strategy hides in my view another bigger problem: that you can predict exactly when (what turn) a city will flip/rebel. If in reality you could predict exactly when rebellions would happen they never would since you would think "their owner" would do what is necessary to quell them (kind of like an experienced player just moves governors around and slots the policies that provide loyalty when needed and never loses a city to declining loyalty). This concerns the previous issue I mentioned about how loyalty is calculated and how rebellions (flips) happen.

Just add a timer for pillage and whenever a tile is pillaged nearby tiles don't grant pillage yield in the next couple of turns is fine. In fact this is the mechanism for Civ5 for city capture gold.

There's no way a tile can be pillaged again and again and again while each time still providing enormous yields. Where are the gold/faith come from?

 

[Equilin]

Just add a timer for pillage and whenever a tile is pillaged nearby tiles don't grant pillage yield in the next couple of turns is fine. In fact this is the mechanism for Civ5

Pretty sure pillage-repair is also a thing in civ5 with fixed amount of gold and heal, just that their worker takes time to repair improvements (which can be reduced to instantly with the correct combos).

 

[DanQuayle]

Just add a timer for pillage and whenever a tile is pillaged nearby tiles don't grant pillage yield in the next couple of turns is fine. In fact this is the mechanism for Civ5.

There was no pillage timer mechanic in civ5, you must think of Crusader Kings where there is a "cooldown/timer" before you get the full pillage/loot yields again or modded civ5.

Pretty sure pillage-repair is also a thing in civ5 with fixed amount of gold and heal, just that their worker takes time to repair improvements (which can be reduced to instantly with the correct combos).

In unmodded civ5 bnw, pillaging was even worst in a way for a different reason.
Pillaging cost 1 MP, provided 25hp heal and a small amount of gold (about 20+ gold).
However, you could bring your own workers (or captured ones) and repair tiles in enemy territory. Repairing took 2 turns or only 1 if you had the Pyramids.
Basically, if you had 1 worker per military unit, you could heal your whole army by 25hp every turn.

 

[Jkchart]

I suggest

1: Additional Grivalance against the Civ you pillaged.
2: Additional Grivalance against all Civs, as they witness your cruel behavior. (after any player researched Mass Media)
3: Additional loyalty towards the pillaged city when owned by your enemy, Loyalty penalty if you capture that city. As the citizens remember the harm of the pillage.
4: Reduced yield when conducting further pillages in that city (or Civ?), as people there start to learn to protect their wealth from pillage.

Oooooooooooh this is good

 

[The Civs 6]

The problem with pillaging to me is that it adds free resources into the game. Take science for example - science comes (mainly) from districts, buildings in those districts, and a few terrain yields. There is a limited amount of science that can be had in the game.

It's weird that pillaging "creates" science out of thin air. As a counter example, if I capture a worker or a city from my opponent, the opponent was once able to make use of that same worker and city. It's such an obvious observation that it is practically axiomatic. However, when I pillage a campus, it creates new science that wasn't useable to the opponent who owns the campus. Beyond the fact that there is no in-game explanation for why this can happen, it just seems to violate a basic rule of the game. You might say it is connected with the hammer cost of building the district/building, but that doesn't make sense because pillaging doesn't destroy the target - it just makes it unavailable for a few turns.

I think that is why pillaging offers so much game-breaking potential, because they don't play nice with the unwritten rules of the game. I am not inclined to say we should revert pillaging back to its old function, because I actually think the way it is done is cool. But maybe instead of getting a +300 science infusion in one turn, a pillaging unit should only get the same trickle of yields that the district/buildings would produce that turn.

 

[Jkchart]

The problem with pillaging to me is that it adds free resources into the game. Take science for example - science comes (mainly) from districts, buildings in those districts, and a few terrain yields. There is a limited amount of science that can be had in the game.

It's weird that pillaging "creates" science out of thin air. As a counter example, if I capture a worker or a city from my opponent, the opponent was once able to make use of that same worker and city. It's such an obvious observation that it is practically axiomatic. However, when I pillage a campus, it creates new science that wasn't useable to the opponent who owns the campus. Beyond the fact that there is no in-game explanation for why this can happen, it just seems to violate a basic rule of the game. You might say it is connected with the hammer cost of building the district/building, but that doesn't make sense because pillaging doesn't destroy the target - it just makes it unavailable for a few turns.

I think that is why pillaging offers so much game-breaking potential, because they don't play nice with the unwritten rules of the game. I am not inclined to say we should revert pillaging back to its old function, because I actually think the way it is done is cool. But maybe instead of getting a +300 science infusion in one turn, a pillaging unit should only get the same trickle of yields that the district/buildings would produce that turn.

I mean...you can gain scientific knowledge by carrying out books and then you torch their stuff? It's not always consistent but looting and pillaging also doesn't mean burn all of the valuable scientific texts. Take those and then burn it all! But yeah, some of the yields for things like that are weirdly valuable.

 

[Stringer1313]

I love the grievance and war weariness ideas. War weariness feels like a joke right now (not sure if that's because it is, or that I'm too lazy to pay attention to it). I personally am a huge fan of the grievance system esp it's impact on diplomatic points (I think it should be harder to get DPs given the relative ease of a diplomatic victory) so anything that adds to grievances makes me happy.

 

[The Civs 6]

I mean...you can gain scientific knowledge by carrying out books and then you torch their stuff? It's not always consistent but looting and pillaging also doesn't mean burn all of the valuable scientific texts. Take those and then burn it all! But yeah, some of the yields for things like that are weirdly valuable.

Ignoring the flavor issues with this point, If the books or whatever were generating scientific knowledge, why wouldn't similar benefits be accessible to the owner of the pillaged district? IE I could build a campus on turn X, and then generate a turn of science from that campus, and if someone pillaged it, they would get like 15-20 turns worth of science. But there is no possible way that the target civ could ever get that much science out of it. It just sort of appears out of thin air.

 

[DanQuayle]

Ignoring the flavor issues with this point, If the books or whatever were generating scientific knowledge, why wouldn't similar benefits be accessible to the owner of the pillaged district? IE I could build a campus on turn X, and then generate a turn of science from that campus, and if someone pillaged it, they would get like 15-20 turns worth of science. But there is no possible way that the target civ could ever get that much science out of it. It just sort of appears out of thin air.

Owner of the library: spreads the knowledge already discovered/acquired by its civilization to its own population (thus yields a small amount of science per turn, in this case +2 science per turn)
Pillager of the library: learns new knowledge yet undiscovered by its civilization (ie the stolen knowledge is a huge breakthrough / eureka / a large pillage yield of science)

Thus it only makes sense to give a big reward to the pillager if he learns something new that his civilization didn't know before. Hence my previous proposals which base science pillage yields on the tech differential between the 2 civilizations...
Example: If you steal of book that teaches you how to build different kind of boats, this certainly will help your civilization in the area of shipbuilding if you don't know how to build boats yet. If you already know how to build boats, maybe you learn how to make different kinds (better?) of boats with different techniques, etc.

***

That last example sprung many ideas in my head that may be worth to explore (however some may be too "experimental" for the current state of the game; I am just spitballing here)
1. Prorate pillage yields to district building tiers
2. Get a free eureka per science pillage (limited to boosts found by the target, but not by the pillager). It is similar to my 3rd previous suggestion (40% eureka boost versus a fixed pourcentage (10% suggested)). However, a full eureka (40% boost) per pillage may be too high. Since it is however limited to tech/eureka differential, it can't be too unbalanced. Even as Babylon where a free eureka equals a new free tech, you can never be the tech leader if you only pillage. You can only leach science from others with this mechanic.
3. Over-Research techs to get better units/buildings/whatever from the tech. Ex Over-research Shipbuilding and you may get Galleys with +1 combat strength per x% of over-research
4. Cultural Differences (such as languages, concepts, organization) may make it difficult to profit from stolen knowledge/technology. Some of it may be too difficult to decipher or can be difficultly applied to your own civilization.
5. Add prerequisite/requirements to benefit from pillage. Some techs may be too far ahead to benefit from pillage. How can a civilization in the medieval era comprehend technical texts on nanotechnology?