Should there be magic/mythology in the next game?

[Henri Christophe]

In other words, if you want Mythology/Legends you can play Age of Wonders 4, which seems to be a good Game. Civ is a historical Game, and should stay so. I'm ok with a Civ Spin-Off or a new Title making a History-meets-Mythology Game, but the main game should refrain from any Fantasy/Mythology nonesense.

I googled this Age of Wonders and seems to be a game based on European mythology only.
A game as Civilization, if it made a mythological spin off, should do mythologies off all world.
A civ as Zulu should have unique mythological elements as it have unique features in regular series.
I don't think there are a game who already misture the concept of the history off all humanity with mythology.

 

[Zegangani]

I don't think there are a game who already misture the concept of the history off all humanity with mythology.

Civ doesn't represent all Civilizations/Cultures in the World, and puts more emphasize on western Civs/Cultures, and leaves a lot of non-western Regions unrepresented (where Europe for example is nearly fully mapped out in Civ6, but Africa and South America leave a lot to be desired). In that sense, you can say that Civ isn't a good representation of History too. But it's not supposed to represent all of Humankind's Cultures and Civilizations throughout History, and you know how Game Industry works, or where the Profit is. Same thing with other Games.

 

[pineappledan]

I’ll just say that myth and history are porous, more like a slider. different ideas and tidbits have shifted back and forth between the two, as oral history has been rehabilitated or archaeology comes to support or refute something that was either thought of as just a story or was presumed to be unembellished history.

Because of that I’m mostly ok with some mythic history, but I draw the line at mages casting fireballs or manticores running around.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Civ doesn't represent all Civilizations/Cultures in the World, and puts more emphasize on western Civs/Cultures, and leaves a lot of non-western Regions unrepresented (where Europe for example is nearly fully mapped out in Civ6, but Africa and South America leave a lot to be desired). In that sense, you can say that Civ isn't a good representation of History too. But it's not supposed to represent all of Humankind's Cultures and Civilizations throughout History, and you know how Game Industry works, or where the Profit is. Same thing with other Games.

I agree with you this game overrepresented Europe over Africans/Native Americans.
But, at least, I think they try to cover the entire world.
I mean, they don't are sucessfull on represent the history of entire worlds, since because do that is impossible, but I fell like they are in the right way.
And making a mythological spin off in SId Meier's Civilization style should be very unique.
And they already give a step in this direction when made the Heroes&Myths modes. I remeber to have Yorubas gods as Oya, Mayan gods as the twins and also european gods as Hercules and King Arthur. I think that can be extrapolated very well mantain the Civ mechanics.

 

[Zegangani]

I’ll just say that myth and history are porous, more like a slider. different ideas and tidbits have shifted back and forth between the two, as oral history has been rehabilitated or archaeology comes to support or refute something that was either thought of as just a story or was presumed to be unembellished history.

Because of that I’m mostly ok with some mythic history, but I draw the line at mages casting fireballs or manticores running around.

I agree. And as a religious Person myself, I believe in a lot of things most People don't. But as you say, even though certain fantastical things influenced Humans throughout History or played a part of in Human Life, what people are suggesting to make out of it, and how Games portrait them, is more than over-exaggerated. Like, let's say there was some kind of Vampire in the past, though, what's his real impact on History (no matter if realistic or magical or what not)? According to how his represented in Civ6, It seems that he was a very mighty being that could destroy entire Armies! That's nonesense. His biggest accomplishment didn't come to fruition until 1950+ with some Pop-Culture Influence. And that's the only representation I would accept for a Vampire in a Civ main Game.

And making a mythological spin off in SId Meier's Civilization style should be very unique.

Yea, that's what I'm saying. If at all, it should be a Spin-Off Game. Where even the main Civ Game doesn't represent most Cultures/Regions in the World, and where it or other Titles never accomplished to properly represent Oral Traditions, or even properly implement Religion, why then add questionable fantastical elements, that really didn't play as much of a role as certain Pantheons/Beliefs, to a historical Game? Make it its own game, and let the main Civ Game have more room for historically more relevant things.

 

[Henri Christophe]

His biggest accomplishment didn't come to fruition until 1950+ with some Pop-Culture Influence

The book of Dracula is from 1897, but I guess there was a Vampire myth on Romenia even before the book.

 

[Zegangani]

The book of Dracula is from 1897, but I guess there was a Vampire myth on Romenia even before the book.

The Myth of a Dracula indeed existed even before that year, maybe even for Centuries, but it was a local thing, nothing that had a major impact on history until mid 19th century, in form of Pop-Culture (Books, Movies and what not), not real Vampires that exposed themselves.

In other Words, I'd rather an actual Romania Civ, with perhaps an Ability related/inspired to/by Vampires (like Enemies in own Territory get Damaged when next to Romanian Units (bc sucking their Blood / loosing Moral bc of Fear from the Rumors)) than an actual Vampire Unit. This way we would get an actual historical Civ, Myth inspired Ability, but still not something that all other Civs get (like no Egyptian Vampire or a South American King Arthur).

 

[pineappledan]

Sort of like how age of empires did an age of mythology game, and it was really good.

That could be pretty dope, actually. It would require some very heavy adjustments to the civ formula.

Re: the depictions of pantheons and religions, you can see a heavy bias in Mesopotamian and Indo-European pantheons, and a bias towards Abrahamic and Buddhist beliefs in the mechanics, objectives, and abilities for the religion system. There is an emphasis on evangelism, which ignores pluralistic religious systems like Hinduism or Zoroastrianism. There is emphasis on monotheism as a progression from a pagan pantheon, rather than progressing into monism, animism, or pantheism. There are no beliefs based on new world religions at all.

Arguably, the entire religious spread mechanic in civ 6 is based off of Elijah’s duel with the priests of Baal, complete with lightning from heaven. I think the religion/belief mechanics is where “mythology” can most comfortable exist in the franchise, but they aren’t doing much to capture the diversity of spiritual practices or systems with the tools they have.

 

[Patine]

The book of Dracula is from 1897, but I guess there was a Vampire myth on Romenia even before the book.

The Myth of a Dracula indeed existed even before that year, maybe even for Centuries, but it was a local thing, nothing that had a major impact on history until mid 19th century, in form of Pop-Culture (Books, Movies and what not), not real Vampires that exposed themselves.

In other Words, I'd rather an actual Romania Civ, with perhaps an Ability related/inspired to/by Vampires (like Enemies in own Territory get Damaged when next to Romanian Units (bc sucking their Blood / loosing Moral bc of Fear from the Rumors)) than an actual Vampire Unit. This way we would get an actual historical Civ, Myth inspired Ability, but still not something that all other Civs get (like no Egyptian Vampire or a South American King Arthur).

The vampire as we know it (the pale, gaunt, suave,darkly seductive figure) was an invention of Lord Byron, and made a literary trope by Stoker. The vampire (at least the European one) was portrayed as a corpulent, ruddy-skinned monstrosity in most of the Middle Ages. Vlad III Dracul (Tepes) and Elisabeta Batthory, both infamous Romanian nobles, were huge inspirations on the notion. However, the Japanese, Chinese, Indonesians, Indians, Arabs, Australian Aborigines, Inuit, Cree, Athabaskans, and some African ethnicties have their variants on the theme, radically different, and developed in seeming isolation. Even the extra-scriptural portrayals of Lillith by Anceint Hebrews had a definitely vampiric cast.

 

[Evie]

Ahem, invention of John Polidori, who was inspired to invent the character by a story fragment Byron shared, but which does not contain yet the tall dark suave vampire - that's in Polidori's story. The fragment Byron wrote only ever goes as far as the elderly man who was to become a vampire dying. The book was published at first under Byron's name, but is Polidori's.

Now there's a very good case that the dark suave seductive aristocratic vampire is totally *based* on the actual person of Lord Byron, but that's quite a different case.

But still, yes, the dark suave vampire lord only appears with the Year Without A Summer and the ensuing writing contest by Lake Basel that codified half the best known tropes of classic horror and invented science fiction.

 

[Patine]

Ahem, invention of John Polidori, who was inspired to invent the character by a story fragment Byron shared, but which does not contain yet the tall dark suave vampire - that's in Polidori's story. The fragment Byron wrote only ever goes as far as the elderly man who was to become a vampire dying. The book was published at first under Byron's name, but is Polidori's.

Now there's a very good case that the dark suave seductive aristocratic vampire is totally *based* on the actual person of Lord Byron, but that's quite a different case.

But still, yes, the dark suave vampire lord only appears with the Year Without A Summer and the ensuing writing contest by Lake Basel that codified half the best known tropes of classic horror and invented science fiction.

Well, Byron certain was suave and seductive, and got around, for his day and age's mores, considering two of his also very well-known and famous daughtters - Ada Loveless and Mary Shelley - were, "illegitimate," by the marital standards of wedlock in the day.

 

[Evie]

Considering what I've heard about that summer on the shores of Lake Basel, I certainly hope that listing Mary Shelley as his *daughter* is an error...

(Which it almost certainly was: Byron was nine years old when Shelley was born)

 

[Patine]

Considering what I've heard about that summer on the shores of Lake Basel, I certainly hope that listing Mary Shelley as his *daughter* is an error...

(Which it almost certainly was: Byron was nine years old when Shelley was born)

Yes, that's embarrassing. It has been a while since I was reading the bios of those two, and got her mixed in, in my head, with Lovelace and other of his talented offspring out of wedlock.

 

[GeneralZift]

I think a big issue with including Mythology is two things:

One, it doesn't scale with the time frame very well. In medieval ages its cool to have Loki come in and do some magic but once you hit Atomic age, it's going to be weird seeing the Kraken fight a Submarine...

Two, the Civs are not equal in mythology, and the Civs born later in time (eg. Canada) have little to no mythology

 

[Henri Christophe]

the Civs born later in time (eg. Canada) have little to no mythology

In the Canadian case it could have myths of the populations who compose Canada, as native americans and europeans.
As I'm not Canadian I'm not aware about Canadian mythology, but here in Brazil we do have European myths as werewolf, Native American myths as Curupira and African myths as Saci Pererê in our national pantheon of myths.

 

[pineappledan]

We have some Canadian Settler-only twists on old European things. Like French Canadians have their own boogeyman: the Seven O’clock Man, and the Wild Hunt: The Flying Canoe. We also have incorporated some First Nations myths like Whiskey Jack (Wisakedjak), Nanabush, and the Wendigo

 

[Evie]

The Flying Canoe is about as closely related to the Wild Hunt as Harley Quinn is.

Which is not to say that they are not related - both really are (King Herla/Herla Cynig, one of the traditional leaders of the wild hunt, became Herlequin, a french stock demon characster in medieval play, who became Harlequin, the Comedia del Arte character, leading to Harley Quinn ; while one particular french version fo the wild hunt renamed the leader of the Hunt as the Seigneur de Gallerie, thus becoming Gallerie's hunt (La Chasse de Gallerie), which in the new world became La Chasse Gallerie. But at the same time, the legend shed the hunters and horsemen for lumberjack far from home; the hunter's horses for a canoe (and in turn, later versions traded the canoe for buses, trains, large fishing containers), and largely abandoned the notion of hunting to turn the chasse gallerie into a simple mean of travel over the vast territory of Canada, particularly for those working far from home during times of family reunions such as the holidays.

The resulting legend - common people being able to travel through the sky on an enchanted vehicle to spend the night with their loved ones at New Year or similar occasions - bear only passing similarities to its ancestor, and its a very distinct legend in its own right.

Which could easily be adopted into a mythological game - flight abilities are a classic.

(But otherwise, entirely, yes, Settler Canada - especially the French side, though the English side has its own too - has its own rich array of legends, sea monsters and other fantastic creatures. And Indigenous Canada has even more but I feel these shouldn'T be given to Canada)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

- And here I thought La Chasse Gallerie was a department store in Montreal: shows what I know about Canadian folklore.

Although on a more serious note, there is absolutely no limit to the way stories and tales can be warped around mythological or 'real' historical characters.

I once listened while Oscar Brand (a noted folklorist from back in the 1950s) gave, by examples, the transition of the medieval English ballad "Lord Randal My Son" (which dates back to at least the 15th century) through the Scotch-Irish and English settlers in the Carolina mountains who tried to maintain the old traditions even though most of the ballad's story (a nobleman poisoned by his fiance) made little sense in the 1700s in the Carolinas. Then the song traveled downhill into the flat plantation country, was picked up by the African slaves who threw out the European iambic pentameter and syncopated the whole song and resulted in the children's song "Billy Boy". - after about 150 years and numerous transition versions from the original (original as in the oldest versions collected in the British Isles by Cecil Sharpe and other early researchers)
Even more fascinating are the numerous fables about the Immortal Iskander (Alexander the Great) and his trusty wizard side-kick Aristotles (Aristotle) told all over central Asia from India to Finland (!?). Basically, they got 'tacked on' to every local legend imaginable, including going up to the heavens in a balloon or under water in a diving bell built by Aristotle.

Anyone trying to make a game character out of a larger than life real leader like Alexander has to keep and eye out for the 'legends' that creep into the narrative. When the 'historical' character is only lightly documented, and then largely by their opponents (Vercingetorix, Arminius, Boudacia, for good examples) mythology is very likely to overwhelm any factual element.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Two, the Civs are not equal in mythology, and the Civs born later in time (eg. Canada) have little to no mythology

Ehhh... You could at least have the Mounties ride moose instead of horses.
But for all intents and purposes I wouldn't expect a civilization game with magic/mythology to have Canada. I'd expect it to be a spin-off, not a main game like Civ 7.

 

[Evie]

Mythology, folklore, legends. Canada's got plenty enough of the later two, as do America - they're just considerably less well known.