Should WLTKD be more useful?

[vyyt]

Is everyone happy with how WLTKD works? The growth can be nice in the earlier stages of the game, but later on, I find it useful only in my capital - especially when you consider the efforts sometimes required to obtain some of the luxuries.

Instead of OR in addition to growth, would extra gold or some reduction of unhappiness make sense?

 

[andersw]

Is everyone happy with how WLTKD works? The growth can be nice in the earlier stages of the game, but later on, I find it useful only in my capital - especially when you consider the efforts sometimes required to obtain some of the luxuries.

Instead of OR in addition to growth, would extra gold or some reduction of unhappiness make sense?

Its quite strong with fealty, the Burghers "+15% production and city Border Growth doubled during 'We Love the King Day.' " is not to be underestimated if you have a wide empire.
Wide empires also tend to struggle some with city size which also increase the WLKD value.
City growth is yields, more yields in a wide empire and if you have built the corresponding buildings with yields on pop.
But yes sometimes WLKD is a bit meh, likely even more so in small turtle empires.

 

[crdvis16]

There are also lots of religious beliefs/ buildings that benefit from WLTKD. The benefits to WLTKD can become pretty substantial if you get some of them. I'd say it feels like it's in a pretty good spot in my games- I purposely try to get WLTKD in my core cities if at all possible (even over paying for luxes or going out of my way to get a CS alliance sometimes). I'll also work merchant slots in a city or two in an attempt to have merchants to reset WLTKD when it gets stuck on a lux I can't fulfill. But if I can't get WLTKD for some reason (often just bad luck) then it doesn't feel like THAT bad of a problem typically.

 

[Stalker0]

I think WLTKD is in a fine place.

 

[Drakle]

WLTKD is more annoying to get, then bad bonuses. Often times it asks for stuff that isn't on your continent. Cities constantly asking for Indonesia's resources, when you have no way of meeting him is always annoying. And the resets with Great Merchants and Circuses take a while, since Merchants are the least powerful specialist, and I would like to have some towns to boost the strength, not immediately start popping them for WLTKD. But I often have to, because the later era is when obtaining WLTKD is easier, since all players and city-states are met. Well until you get sanctioned.

WLTKD also disincentives trading for resources, until you get requests.

I think WLTKD would be better if it were restricted to visible resources. So the first one would be for a resource near you. Then start branching outwards as the map is explored. And it makes sense for your citizens to demand stuff they know exists.

 

[vyyt]

Yes, with certain beliefs, WLTKDs are nice, but without them and when a new citizen just nets you 10 unhappies, they are mostly just meh to me. I realize I often try to get WLTKDs just for roleplaying reasons more than anything else. It feels good when somebody loves you

 

[vyyt]

@Drakle , oh yes, when my spoiled citizens long for all these nutmegs. I like your idea about visible resources, although I am not sure how it would pan out if you did not explore much. Another way (not related to nutmegs though) would be cycling through all the resources present on the map including the ones you already have - the wide empires would benefit from this the most of course, but I don't think it is a bad thing.

But my primary concern is the overall "meh-ness" and that the LOVE in WLTKD does not decrease the unhappiness. Instead of loving each other and spawning more unhappy citizens, they should love me and be happier for the duration of WLTKD, no?

 

[Drakle]

I'd like WLTKD if they gave quests aside from just resources. Like City state quests. Not sure if that is possible. Just an idea.

But for example, specific building requests, targeting specific unhappiness sources (like reducing poverty or connecting the city), converting the city to the true faith, clearing barbarian camps or trade routes.

And @vyyt yeah it should cycle through all the resources on the map, including ones owned to not encourage not importing resources when possible. Golden ages are supposed to be the taller empires thing (Tradition, Artistry and Rationalism), while WLTKD should be the natural domain of the wide empire (Fealty and Industry). Instead, WLTKD doesn't quite reward wide quite right.

 

[Drakul]

I'd like WLTKD if they gave quests aside from just resources. Like City state quests. Not sure if that is possible. Just an idea.

But for example, specific building requests, targeting specific unhappiness sources (like reducing poverty or connecting the city), converting the city to the true faith, clearing barbarian camps or trade routes.

And @vyyt yeah it should cycle through all the resources on the map, including ones owned to not encourage not importing resources when possible. Golden ages are supposed to be the taller empires thing (Tradition, Artistry and Rationalism), while WLTKD should be the natural domain of the wide empire (Fealty and Industry). Instead, WLTKD doesn't quite reward wide quite right.

Like random great people points ? Like connecting marble and you receive 20 instant GE points

 

[Recursive]

I'd like WLTKD if they gave quests aside from just resources. Like City state quests. Not sure if that is possible. Just an idea.

But for example, specific building requests, targeting specific unhappiness sources (like reducing poverty or connecting the city), converting the city to the true faith, clearing barbarian camps or trade routes.

Sounds remarkably similar to City-State quests. Although to be fair, there is also a City-State quest for connecting a resource.

 

[documental]

I would like if they were stronger at it's base or through buildings/tech. I think they are too reliant on getting specific bonuses. Otherwise I tend to ignore/forget they even exist.

It feels very all-or-nothing to me and most WLTKD's I get are purely by accident.

 

[LarryAR]

WLTKD is just another seasoning in our Civ 5 soup. It is okay as is.
Get it by luck or on purpose, it gives you a little burst of flavor.
Too much of it would not be as tasty.

 

[Favorius]

Reduction of unhappiness is part of Brazil's UA and it is very strong in its own right. With presence of beliefs, wonders and policies that further boosts WLTKD any buffs will make it no-brainer. I like current state, focusing on it helps your yields, not focusing does not feel total loss.

 

[Drakle]

Reduction of unhappiness is part of Brazil's UA and it is very strong in its own right. With presence of beliefs, wonders and policies that further boosts WLTKD any buffs will make it no-brainer. I like current state, focusing on it helps your yields, not focusing does not feel total loss.

Well the issue is that you can focus all you want, but if the resource isn't on the revealed map, then you can't fufill the mission, unless you have a Great Merchant (which provides the weakest base yields and you still have to wait a while to get) or have unlocked/ not already used Circuses/that religious building). These later methods should be used for when you don't want to pay the cost of importing from others civs, don't want to invest in allying a city state or don't want to conquer. Not be forced to pop it, because your civs ask for stuff they've never seen.

 

[Favorius]

Well the issue is that you can focus all you want, but if the resource isn't on the revealed map, then you can't fufill the mission, unless you have a Great Merchant (which provides the weakest base yields and you still have to wait a while to get) or have unlocked/ not already used Circuses/that religious building). These later methods should be used for when you don't want to pay the cost of importing from others civs, don't want to invest in allying a city state or don't want to conquer. Not be forced to pop it, because your civs ask for stuff they've never seen.

If you decide to base your play around getting super wltkds you have to plan ahead and also endure risks associated with your choice. That is similar to fine tuning your choices for warmongering but getting rekt in front of a heavily defended enemy city.
Resource not being revealed yet is a temporary setback. I always think of wltkd as mid to late game boost, after cities get synagogues, fealty policy is picked etc. For that matter I usually build circuses around industrial era and make sure I get 2 GMs sit in my capital by that time. I do not complain for not getting immature wltkds at classical era when city yields are still not high.

 

[wobuffet]

One simple idea to ameliorate the 'impossible resource" problem: Cities' WLTKD requests "refresh" every time you enter a new Era.

But my primary concern is the overall "meh-ness" and that the LOVE in WLTKD does not decrease the unhappiness. Instead of loving each other and spawning more unhappy citizens, they should love me and be happier for the duration of WLTKD, no?

Interesting. What about just a flat +1 per 5 in WLTKD Cities while the WLTKD lasts? Or even a permanent +1 in that City, but that'd probably be a bear to balance.

To me, the status quo is "pursue WLTKD in Cities where you want to grow aggressively; otherwise it's a low priority." Fine and reasonably situationally fun, IMO (as long as you don't get a frustrating inaccessible one).

 

[vyyt]

@wobuffet , yes, that's what I meant, some (even a small one) happiness bonus during WLTKD (I think a permanent one would be impossible to balance).

@Favorius , I forgot about the Brazil UA (I don't like their color scheme, so I think I played with them only once). I will try to make their UA available for everyone (maybe after some tweaking) and see how it goes.

 

[telelavoro]

I agree with some of the above points. Having a mechanic whose icon is not giving any happiness is...sort of counterintuitive. Similarly, the way that trading for luxuries can be a slight noob trap because it guarantees that that won't be picked for WLTKDs is a bit counterintuitive. Including owned luxuries in the cycle would be an easy way to fix this. Honestly, the growth bonuses could be tuned down - we already have Industry/China for that, and with the current state of happiness, growth is a negative contributor to happiness, rather than a positive one.

 

[azum4roll]

I usually find that my cities don't grow enough and my happiness is too high, so I aggressively go for WLTKDs. They do their job well.

 

[andersw]

Playing as China atm:
1 gold/city for wlkd
Paper maker +10% gold wlkd and 1 gold/4pop.
Theocratic Rule + 15% Faith, Culture, Gold on wlkd
Synagogue +10% science on wlkd
(Mausoleum +10% gold, science, prod, was sadly out of reach.)

I got gems as lux with monopoly +10% Gold in all owned cities

Dare I say that gold/income is not an issue.
Almost regret I didnt go thrift as second follower belief to jack this up even more.
(What to reform with is a more difficult choice)

All this is ofc a lot less optimal if you're not china and if WLKD is buffed you need to take this into consideration as they gain WLKD from both getting a new city and creating a great work.
Ie goal is to be in as much WLKD as possible.