Sid Spaceship Game

[I. Larkin]

At least it wasn't the Inca, and at least we're at least somewhat caught up in tech so capturing it might not even be necessary. If we really expand our empire with the Aztec war, we could be powerful enough to not need it.

Well, Inca TGL may be better. Sooner or later we conquer them anyway. But Arabia far away... I think we go to MT and get the rest from TGL may be usefull.

 

[Spoonwood]

What did you set research to I. Larkin?

Spoonwood-on deck
Own-in the hole
I. Larkin-just played
Bucephalus-up

 

[I. Larkin]

What did you set research to I. Larkin?

Spoonwood-on deck
Own-in the hole
I. Larkin-just played
Bucephalus-up

I researched Feo wit 1 Sci. Last turn I McMng all to work. We may start 10% Sci or 0%, don't know.
I think we may sortrush something with cash in hand...

Spoonwood-on deck, probably may play before Bucephalus.

 

[Bucephalus]

I have it.

Spoonwood, can you confirm that you didn't play this?

Edit:

A few questions while I'm waiting for SW to answer:

Settling to capture the silks will require aggressive settling - do we want to do that?

@Ivan: there is a fortified MW north of Centralia; is it holding a settling spot? Never mind, I see you've covered it in your log.

We are building a harbour in Oil Springs; I'm thinking a library would be better, to capture the BG, and there is a 50% chance that we will get to keep the harbour at Teayo, assuming we capture it.

 

[Spoonwood]

I will confirm that I didn't play this. As for my evil twin, that's another story. Just kidding. I haven't played it nor even opened the save!

Settling to capture the silks will require aggressive settling - do we want to do that?

I don't see how settling near the silks near Bapedi and Tugela makes any sense until we have a position to attack the Zulu. As far as I can tell, settling near there *would* lead to war with Shaka, as it lies within his (and not at the edge of his) cultural borders. We can plan to do that *later* if we desire (we might trade for silks before that), but we'll need to have a position to do so.

We might want a courthouse in Oil Springs before the library. But, I agree a library preferable to a harbor there. The harbor would only net one sea square of extra food. After it has a library, then a harbor... or workers (look at all the lovely rainforest) or military as we see fit.

 

[Bucephalus]

I don't see how settling near the silks near Bapedi and Tugela makes any sense until we have a position to attack the Zulu. As far as I can tell, settling near there *would* lead to war with Shaka, as it lies within his (and not at the edge of his) cultural borders..

Not quite; the silks lie within the first cultural expansion. However, in my experience that can be enough to cause war, even if not immediately - do we want to risk that? That said, there is little risk of flipping - Shaka has barely more culture than we do - and we are almost in a position where we could fight a defensive war against Shaka because of his poor supply lines.

I'm guessing Ivan was thinking about trade routes with the harbour, hence my comment about Teayo having one.

 

[I. Larkin]

I forgot to mention that I spot some Aztecs Galleys sailing west from OS area. I thought that some vet Galleys may be useful. Also trade route, we can't relay on trade via City that may flip.
But we are not going trade now. I think Zulu will be next target after Aztecs. We will have 3 Iron and it is good to trade and get some techs for that.

Yes, I want aggressive settlement, it will be a good base for our aggression. And Silk for few turns. I think better to do it now, because Zulu border may expand and it will be no place at all.

 

[I. Larkin]

Deleted duplicated post.

 

[Bucephalus]

Thing is, IIRC - I don't have access to the game atm - there is no road to the silks, so we won't have silks for a fairly long time unless we commit a number of workers to the task of roading through the jungle; I'm in favour of that in principle, as we'll need roads to move arty through it, but in practice I don't think we can spare the workers.

 

[I. Larkin]

I have a hope that Zulu will build this road for us.
Also we will have access via harbor.

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't believe it would be worth the workers, nor do I think we can hold it, as I expect Shaka will build more culture than us and he'll have doubling bonuses apply earlier. We also can't afford fighting a second war in the opposite direction of the Aztecs, especially against Shaka.

What in the world do we do about research?

 

[Bucephalus]

I too am far from convinced that we should be antagonizing Shaka while he has units marching past undefended towns, especially to grab silks that we won't be able to make immediate use of.

If Shaka is to be our next target, surely that will be the time to grab the silks?

I won't have time to play until tomorrow morning, so there's time for Own to give his opinion.

@SW: Thus far, Shaka has built little more culture than ourselves.

 

[Bucephalus]

Regarding research:

What strategy are we employing here? We are currently running zero science.

Feudalism is known by all except Shaka and Brennus, Mono is known by one (Arabia, I think).

For the record, we could self-research Feudalism in 33.

 

[Own]

Maybe I'm just not very observant, but I've never noticed aggressive settling causing a war. I'm sure that I could be wrong, but I'm just saying. If the Zulu are already in a war, they're unlikely to start another. I can't imagine what worker task could be more important than connecting a luxury. I mean, that's basically +1 commerce per city. The city that gets the silks could have a temple rushed. That'd be a worthwhile investment IMO.

Getting Feudalism is always tricky. The AI values it a lot, so much that both Mono and Engineering won't be enough to get it unless one of them is a monopoly, but that doesn't apply here. Every time I enter the middle ages on Sid, I have to come up with some creative way to get it, but I usually play on continents, so there's at least one backwards civ that you can sell The Republic or Monarchy to for it. On standard pangaea, I imagine that no such civ will exist. The main problem is that no investment in a tech can get any monetary return, since every AI knows every other AI. With that said, I'd start researching it. If we don't research and 33 turns later, we still don't have Feud, we're probably gonna get pissed. And we can always shut down research if a trading opportunity comes, and Feud will be cheaper.

Seven opponent Sid pangaea is a friggin' bear. With our current territory, I don't think we have the commerce to keep up in tech with trading opportunities few in numbers and low in quality. Maybe our tech plan should just be to hope that we don't get too far behind before we've conquered some land so that we have something to work with. Either research or don't; it doesn't really matter. We're investing our commerce somewhere, and it'll be useful to us whether in the treasury or in research toward Feudalism, but our main focus should be on the war.

 

[Bucephalus]

Maybe I'm just not very observant, but I've never noticed aggressive settling causing a war. I'm sure that I could be wrong, but I'm just saying.

It's one of those questions that crops up in General Discussions from time to time, and to be honest it always boils down to opinion. I'm happy to go with whatever is decided, and it's fair to say that Ivan has more Sid experience than me, at least.

If the Zulu are already in a war, they're unlikely to start another. I can't imagine what worker task could be more important than connecting a luxury. I mean, that's basically +1 commerce per city. The city that gets the silks could have a temple rushed. That'd be a worthwhile investment IMO.

My point is that it's more than just 'a worker task' - there are several jungle tiles to road.

Getting Feudalism is always tricky. The AI values it a lot, so much that both Mono and Engineering won't be enough to get it unless one of them is a monopoly, but that doesn't apply here. Every time I enter the middle ages on Sid, I have to come up with some creative way to get it, but I usually play on continents, so there's at least one backwards civ that you can sell The Republic or Monarchy to for it. On standard pangaea, I imagine that no such civ will exist. The main problem is that no investment in a tech can get any monetary return, since every AI knows every other AI. With that said, I'd start researching it. If we don't research and 33 turns later, we still don't have Feud, we're probably gonna get pissed. And we can always shut down research if a trading opportunity comes, and Feud will be cheaper.

Actually, one such tribe does exist; Celts have neither Republic or Construction, and IIRC, only seven towns. They have no gpt to give, but would give their 30g for Construction.

Seven opponent Sid pangaea is a friggin' bear. With our current territory, I don't think we have the commerce to keep up in tech with trading opportunities few in numbers and low in quality. Maybe our tech plan should just be to hope that we don't get too far behind before we've conquered some land so that we have something to work with. Either research or don't; it doesn't really matter. We're investing our commerce somewhere, and it'll be useful to us whether in the treasury or in research toward Feudalism, but our main focus should be on the war.

How about going lone scientist? We are only making 39gpt (in a GA!), and I think it could be spent more wisely than shaving a few turns off Feudalism. For example, if we capture Teayo (size 5), we could rush some much-needed workers to shrink it down, rather than starving it down.

Or might we be better putting beakers into Engineering, assuming we're bee-lining to MT?

 

[Own]

We need Feudalism for Invention anyway though, so Feud is needed even for a bee-line.

Lone scientist doesn't sound like a bad idea. I'd actually go for that.

Why don't we sell Construction to the Celts? It couldn't possibly be useful for any trading opportunity of any kind, and they'll probably get it next turn anyway. Let's pocket a quick 30g. Now.

I didn't know that it was through so many jungle tiles. I guess we should hold off on that then.

What's with our weak gpt in a GA in a republic? Have we not disbanded our useless units yet? I'm all for the warm body defense, but not if it's bankrupting us. We're probably working way too many unimproved tiles. I'd have cities building workers.

 

[Bucephalus]

We need Feudalism for Invention anyway though, so Feud is needed even for a bee-line.

Yep, but it will be quicker to research once, a) we have libraries, and, b) the Celts have it. We may even get lucky and be able to add Republic to a trade with them.

Why don't we sell Construction to the Celts? It couldn't possibly be useful for any trading opportunity of any kind, and they'll probably get it next turn anyway. Let's pocket a quick 30g. Now.

That's my thought.

What's with our weak gpt in a GA in a republic? Have we not disbanded our useless units yet? I'm all for the warm body defense, but not if it's bankrupting us. We're probably working way too many unimproved tiles. I'd have cities building workers.

I'm assuming 20% lux is draining us.

 

[I. Larkin]

We need Feudalism for Invention anyway though, so Feud is needed even for a bee-line.
Yep, but it will be quicker to research once, a) we have libraries, and, b) the Celts have it. We may even get lucky and be able to add Republic to a trade with them.

Quote:
Why don't we sell Construction to the Celts? It couldn't possibly be useful for any trading opportunity of any kind, and they'll probably get it next turn anyway. Let's pocket a quick 30g. Now.
That's my thought.

Quote:
What's with our weak gpt in a GA in a republic? Have we not disbanded our useless units yet? I'm all for the warm body defense, but not if it's bankrupting us. We're probably working way too many unimproved tiles. I'd have cities building workers.
I'm assuming 20% lux is draining us.

May drain is 41 gpt to Mongols. But it will be over 10 turns later.
Plan is to have 0% research but increase it when some libs come to operation. Probably with silk we may reduce lux.
We do not need road there just harbor and scout sea routine.
We desperately need cash to rush units and improvements. I'd consider to borrow some from Arabs, say.
I think we have enough workers.

 

[Spoonwood]

The main problem is that no investment in a tech can get any monetary return, since every AI knows every other AI.

I doubt this holds. Most civs may know many of the other civs, but I doubt all. I can't tell on this map or Sid maps in general, but I believe I've sold a contact or two on standard pangea Deity maps, and I know I've sold several contacts on Deity Huge *true* pangea maps.

I like the idea of researching Engineering. The religious AIs might ignore it in favor of Theology and everyone else might ignore it in favor of Chivalry. If we can catch up by Theology, I favor going Education-Banking. If we catch up by Education, I favor going to Banking first (by the way, I don't anticipate either happening, which implies capturing the Great Library). Going the MT path slows down the tech pace, as the AIs tend to favor almost every militaristic tech on that path, with the exception of perhaps Chemistry and Engineering. The sooner we enter the industrial ages, the better tech-wise, since we all know about the Nationalism-government funnel that slows down the AIs, and they usually have tons of gpt around this time also.

If not Engineering, then I'd favor Monotheism, since fewer AIs favor it currently, potentially allowing for more trading opportunities (and to give the Celts time to cheapen Feudalism for us). Shutting off research or doing min scientist doesn't help anything so far as I can see. In fact, I'd say it wastes beakers of our GA. Production also gets calculated before commerce, so a library that gets built on turn 2 of research can actually lower tech time on turn 2 instead of on turn 3. Heck, if I want the Republic slingshot with an Alpha tribe on Deity, I'll start with max research from turn 1, even though it reads 50 turns, because I get the beakers in earlier that way. If we can get any decent trading opportunities with Engineering, we really need to get there ASAP.

Overall, I feel very frustrated by our tech situation. We had a plan that I thought we all had agreed on (Own and I seemed enthusiastic at the time and no one else seemed to say much)... that we try to get a near-by neighbor to build the Great Library for us, so we could capture without too much difficulty. But, we didn't even attempt that plan, and canned it last minute. I still wanted to try that plan, Own had second thoughts, but I thought he felt indifferent, I. Larkin didn't like it (since he canned it), and I can't tell about Bucephalus's opinion. In other words, we didn't have a consensus either way... so far as I can tell. I'd rather play this as a team game than just hand off saves every X turns.

 

[I. Larkin]

We still may go TGL plan. Idea to give Lit to Aztecs would not work as weak civ can't build TGL anyway. Somehow Arabs are the "safe target" as they very far away. Really horde of MW + RoP rape will make a deal. We also need a lot of MW anyway for local wars. It is useful for local wars to have Feudalism so let try to get it and thats' it. But I'd rather do it have way and trade or steal. I don't think that we have chance to trade Eng for something as we will not have monopoly (I think). I still believe that I made a very good trade first turn, and now we have republican GA. What else we may desire and deserve at 1000BC?
So plan now is to build Marketplaces and Military, some Libs for culture, expand South and North and go to Baghdad.

I doubt this holds. Most civs may know many of the other civs, but I doubt all.

Exactly. Trade round showed that Inca do not know Mongols and Arabia. But Inca already have Theology...