Silk02 - Passive Aggressive Pangeaic Cultural Domination

[RRRaskolnikov]

Putting Napy in isn't a good idea ... all the others are reasonnable (don't attack at pleased and all but SB and Hannibal have low units building probability) though...

 

[dualmaster]

Sounds like we're narrowing in on things...Prince, Pangaea, Standard Size, Epic speed, Gilgamesh, cultural victory off. I prefer to keep barbs. We'll need military anyways to keep from getting attacked. Turn on choose religions for fun?

Choosing civs, list I came up with:
-Lincoln
-Hammurabi
-Freddy
-Toku
-SB
-Peter

No creative, imperialistic, industrious, avoided financial tech monsters (Hannibal and Mansa). Aggressive/expansive not big concerns. None of these leaders are known for beelining religions, wonderwhoring, heavy culture, or overly warlike.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Toku? not warlike?

 

[Nictel]

This game BETTER be as difficult as we're being told, if we're going to restrict to leaders that aren't creative, aggressive, industrious or expansive, and that have a late religion as a favorite!

I'm surprised there are enough civ's that fit the bill, to be honest. I'm ok with taking 6 of the 7 AI's that Nictel mentioned.

Hehe, well if we are going to pick the AI might as well do it properly.

After some thought I would suggest dropping either Hannibal or Mansa, they are both financial and as such only need 1 square with 2 to beat us to the early religions. In any case we need a start with 2 to be successful.

Edit: I usually have rather Nappy than Toku next door.

 

[dualmaster]

This game BETTER be as difficult as we're being told, if we're going to restrict to leaders that aren't creative, aggressive, industrious or expansive, and that have a late religion as a favorite!

Don't worry, Silk03 can be the same on Huge/Archipelago/Immortal/Always War if this ends up being too easy.

Toku? not warlike?

Some exceptions apply . Besides always hating me, I never find Toku to be too difficult in my games and we should be able to culturally trounce him. We need a little flavor in this game right?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

We need a little flavor in this game right?

Then you will have flavour It's true I've seen Toku without mysticism for millenas

Cheers

 

[Dr Yes]

I agree on Creative for the early border pops and early pressure. That makes the analysis of the preferred leader a little easier.
Rule out as a co-trait Aggressive, Charismatic (doesn't even exist with Cre), and in some sense Imperialistic, as these have military bonuses. That rules out Kublai Khan and Catherine. Not a big deal, as their UB does not provide cultural bonuses. So the choice is:
FIN WvO commerce and extra hammers from UB
SPI Hat cheap monument, no anarchy, UB gives not much
ORG Zara cheaper upkeep, lh ch and fact, 25% cult from Monument
IND Lou wonder production, cheaper forge, free artist from UB
PHI Peri extra GPP, cheaper Uni, +3 cult from UB
EXP Sury +2 health, faster worker, granary, harbor, UB sucks
PRO Gil promos to defenders, cheaper walls and castle (+1 cult), UB can be built with Priesthood

If we don't go for Always Peace (never tried this before), then the UU is a consideration as well. WvO is useless on Pangaea, Zara and Louis' UU are late (muskets), Sury's advantage depends on availability of Ivory, Pericles and Gilgamesh have axemen, and Hat a chariot. So for UU I'm leaning towards Gil, Peri and Hat.

With regard to founding religions, this was certainly a strategy on the one succesful cultural domination game (RB29d). So a leader with Mysticism as a starting tech would be favorable. Unfortunately, there is no such Creative leader. Instead, if we pick our adversaries we would then exclude all leaders with Mysticism as a starting tech. Likewise, I would rule out all leaders that are Creative. (Just imagine an AI going for cultural domination as well).

I wouldn't turn off barbs, because they provide for nice cheap promotions. Well needed against Aggressive AIs.

So here is my list of preferred Leaders:
Gilgamesh - Good UU, excellent UB for rexing and espionage, OK trait
Pericles - Good UU, good UB (although somewhat late), excellent trait
Hatsepshut - Good UU, OK UB in combination with trait
Louis - OK UU (late), Good UB (excellent for free artist, but late), good trait
Zara - UU soso, excellent UB, trait OK for rexing

I remember that Monuments' cultural point don't double after 1000 years if obtained from the Stonehenge, so we may consider building them rather than the Henge.
Also, I agree on a SE, which makes WvO a less likely candidate. Cottaging cities and then running Artist specialists is a nice strategy. Make Music and the Sistine Chapel an absolute priority. In ombination with all the religions we can get this will provide for a lot of culture.

I haven't seen Pericles in your analyses. Please reconsider.

 

[Dr Yes]

There are 31 leaders who are not Creative, and who don't have Mysticism as a starting tech.
I'd rather not pick those who have an Aggression level that is high or very high, this rules out 14 leaders. Also, do not pick those 3 that favor Culture.
That leaves us with the following 14:
Lincoln, Roosevelt, Washington, Mao, Qin, Churchill, Victoria, Bismarck, Frederick, Mansa Musa, Sitting Bull, Darius, Joao, Augustus.
How many do we need?

 

[Dr Yes]

Sounds like we're narrowing in on things...Prince, Pangaea, Standard Size, Epic speed, Gilgamesh, cultural victory off. I prefer to keep barbs. We'll need military anyways to keep from getting attacked. Turn on choose religions for fun?

Choosing civs, list I came up with:
-Lincoln
-Hammurabi
-Freddy
-Toku
-SB
-Peter

No creative, imperialistic, industrious, avoided financial tech monsters (Hannibal and Mansa). Aggressive/expansive not big concerns. None of these leaders are known for beelining religions, wonderwhoring, heavy culture, or overly warlike.

OK, I agree with Lincoln, Frederick and Sitting Bull. What are the main problems with Churchill, Mansa Musa and Darius?

 

[silk1976]

RE: barbs - If we want to have them on just to add some fun, that is fine. However, having them on just for extra XP, I think, is not really the best strategy. If we go with gilgamesh, we'll already be protective. Plus, since we aren't going to be attacking, we will have the defensive advantage anyway.
So - if we have them on and get XP from them, its just bonus. But I dont think we should turn them on JUST to have an XP source.
Also - I think the bigger point of having barbs is this: I realize we'll need a military anyway if we're not always peace - but it'll be a while before we are at war with AI's - whereas barbs can cause problems with unescorted settlers right at the crucial time when we plan to be settling like mad. Having to pump out a few escort units, instead of directing those hammers towards settlers, could cost us a few towns, which may be key to the early culture dagger throughout the whole continent.

RE: Pericles - I actually did consider him a bit. Having 100% great people emergence, especially artists that can be settled or do a culture bomb, was attractive. However, in the end, I nixed him because the final three (catherine, hatty, gilgamesh) just had other traits that seemed more useful in a game like this were early and aggressive REX is key. Especially gilgamesh, because his courthouse comes early, he's protective (meaning easy city defense), and he gets quick and cheap castles which increases .

RE: monuments vs henge - that is a good point about not doubling culture after 1000 years. Something to be discussed once we get going, and we see what the map layout is and how easily or how difficult it will be to get henge out. It also kinda depends on where one is with regards to how quickly we want to push borders out. Obviously, we want to do it quickly - but there is a range of how quickly and the balance of speed vs long term culture output.

RE: problems with churchill, mansa and darius. Mansa is a tech whore, darius is financial and thus potentially a tech whore, and churchill is industrious. He may be a wonder whore, I dont know - never played much against him to see what he likes to do.

 

[dualmaster]

Churchill is actually Protective/Charismatic.

I don't much care about the little details. The overall setup seems good. I'm ready to see some starts

 

[Dr Yes]

RE: problems with churchill, mansa and darius. Mansa is a tech whore, darius is financial and thus potentially a tech whore, and churchill is industrious. He may be a wonder whore, I dont know - never played much against him to see what he likes to do.

If I'm not mistaken, Churchill is Charismatic and Protectionist. Haven't played much against him, and never as him.

 

[Dr Yes]

RE: monuments vs henge - that is a good point about not doubling culture after 1000 years. Something to be discussed once we get going, and we see what the map layout is and how easily or how difficult it will be to get henge out. It also kinda depends on where one is with regards to how quickly we want to push borders out. Obviously, we want to do it quickly - but there is a range of how quickly and the balance of speed vs long term culture output.

A monument can be chopped quickly, usually a few turns of labor and then 1 chop. Going for the henge quickly will disrupt production, and I'd rather go for a wonder that produces artist GPP, if we decide to go for wonders at all. Apart from the Sistine, that is a must-have.

Edit: and I agree with Dualmaster that we should go for the Great Wall, especially if we have stone in the BFC. That means Masonry is a priority. Which gets me to techs: it is hard to get all those religions. I ran an off-line game in plain vanilla with Frederick on Noble, and managed to get them all, but I wouldn't recommend it on higher levels. Teched slow and developed slow, just for those religions. But remember that every religion present gives +1 culture.

 

[silk1976]

This whole time I was thinking stonehenge gets you the great spy points - so I was about to reply syaing that getting stonehenge is only half for the monuments - the other half is for the great spy points.
Looking at it - I realize it was the great wall that produces points and great spy points.
My bad.

So yeah - I'm more on board with the idea of skipping stonehenge.

Yeah I'm ready to get rolling some saves - I think we have the major variables in place.

And - my bad about churchill being industrious. Not sure why I thought he was - confusing him with someone else, just not sure who.

 

[silk1976]

Have we set a record for number of posts BEFORE actually rolling some starts?!

Probably.

Anyway - here are our game settings:

Spoiler :

I chose as our AI opponents the three that both Dual and Dr Yes mentioned in their list of acceptable leaders for the traits they were looking for - Lincoln, Frederick and Sitting Bull. Unfortunately, each had slightly different trait requirements, and there were not a total of six that overlapped. So I took a stab on the last three. I chose Washington, Churchill and Bismark. None of these start with mysticism from what I can tell. There really isn't a way around having at least a few leaders with traits we'd rather they not have.

SECOND SET OF START ROLLS:
--------------------------------
So, here we have roll A:

Spoiler :

Roll B:

Spoiler :

Roll C:

Spoiler :

Roll D

Spoiler :

and Roll E

Spoiler :

Discuss.

 

[silk1976]

We start with agriculture and wheel.

SECOND SET OF START ROLLS:
--------------------------------------
B has gemsdye, but is mostly grassland. Settling 1W could maximize farmable land around the river. A couple hills and some forests for production and chopping

D may be good. Two food sources, one of which we can grab immediately, the other requires AH. Some hills for production, an oasis and a river to allow a lot of farmable land. Good for settler pumping.

E - if we settle 1W (where the warrior is), we can hook the spices AND the three clams. But we would need to get fishing right away. With 3 food sources, the land under the forest (once chopped) would probably be mines on the hills and cottages on the grassland.

 

[dualmaster]

B, D, E, A, C

B - Good food and can farm corn ASAP, current settler location does not look great but 1S could be very good

D - Probably move 1W for extra clams, lots of forest to chop, good food (unfortunately nothing to go with our starting techs)

E - Irrigated corn nice to start, but not many forest or hills for production

A+C - Not much food

I think B has the potential to be best if we move, but no gaurantee. At least we'd have good food and trees to chop.

Where's the start with the gems?

 

[Dr Yes]

1. B. 1 instant improvement, 2 semi-instant. 6 river tiles, hut. Tech fishing first, the work boats will provide not only growth, but also commerce, we would be able to tech faster once these tiles are worked. Only drawback: not a lot of hills for production.
2. D. 2 semi workable tiles (move settler West to keep health bonus from fresh water). 8 river tiles.
3. A. hut, 9 river tiles. only 1 workable floodplain.
4. C. Similar to A but no hut.
5. E. Corn is nice, the rest just sucks.

With B or D start, tech fishing first. First build should be warrior for growth. Worker doesn't make sense because he will be idle after first improvement until we have BW.

 

[silk1976]

Before we get too far - I want to check/verify something. I've attached the A roll, and I'd like each person to download and make sure you can open it.
It'll require the dresden MOD be installed in the \Program Files\..\..\Beyond The Sword\Mods\dresden directory.

For whatever reason, even though I have BUG installed in single player mode (in C:\documents and settings\..\..\Beyond the Sword\CustomAssets folder), it doesn't appear to be loading. Oh well.

 

[silk1976]

AHHH crap.

Checking the 'Lock Modified Assets' kicks out the BUG mod. If I uncheck it and roll another start, BUG is available.

So - since it seems like we are all grumbling a tad RE: our starting rolls, should I roll another 5 beginnings, with the 'Lock Modified Assets' unchecked, so we can use BUG?

Sorry about this, folks.