Simultaneous Turns and Religion Founding

[IglooDame]

Ha. This topic played out last night and it reminded me of this thread.

My buddy who HOSTED the game was building the Oracle. With 2 turns to go, a whip and chop arrived to his Wonder-city at the same time. Effectively making it due in 1 turn.

Next turn, guess what happened? He lost the Oracle. BIG slap in our collective faces. Lost the Oracle, lost a forest and a population point in exchange for 108 . YAY!

I assumed since he hosted the game that it was a lock to get it. Nope. Anyone care to help me understand the finely-tuned intricacies behind this programming logic?

I don't think the hosting itself matters, except that the host determines the order that everyone is added, and can presumably put themselves at the top of the list.

Except for the example of the post a couple above this one, and a few days ago I apparently got beaten to a wonder, finishing the same turn as someone else when I was at the top of the turn order. So... dunno.

 

[TeraHammer]

someone test it out with a buddy please

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't think the hosting itself matters, except that the host determines the order that everyone is added, and can presumably put themselves at the top of the list.

Except for the example of the post a couple above this one, and a few days ago I apparently got beaten to a wonder, finishing the same turn as someone else when I was at the top of the turn order. So... dunno.

It is supposed to be top of the list first, for unit action (I think there is a 10 sec grace period), I don't think the same applies for wonders.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Overflow has no effect in the event of a tie, either in single player or multiplayer games. It's just a very persistent myth. The religion (or whatever) goes to whichever civ is listed first, and hence would normally be first in the turn order. In single player, this will be the human player unless you deliberately change it. In multiplayer, even with simultaneous turns, there is always a first civ (the civ that is listed first when setting up the game) which by default will be the host.

Playing with Bts 3.13 I can say with certainty that's not the case. I hosted a simultaneous turns duel, took the first slot, and when my opponenet and I both attempted to build the great wall on the same turn he got it instead. I still have no idea whether it's random or based on a factor like overflow but it's not just the player order..

 

[Innawerkz]

It seems an easy-enough fix: Base it on overflow. Maybe I am over-simplifying, but it seems the most obvious solution. Am I overlooking potential exploits?

 

[IglooDame]

It seems an easy-enough fix: Base it on overflow. Maybe I am over-simplifying, but it seems the most obvious solution. Am I overlooking potential exploits?

The only (potential) one I can think of is to time the chopping of some forests so the hammers show up on the completion turn to maximise the overflow.

 

[Nataz]

Whoever ended turn first the round before completion, if team game the team that ended their turns first.

 

[Kesshi]

Hello Everyone,

While I am still new to multiplayer, and cannot speculate on who gets the buildings when 2 (or more) civs build a wonder at the same time, I think I can shed some light on the whole simultaneous discovery of technology in a team game.

When you are researching something in a single player game, your bar may look like this:

Divine Right (2)
|||||||||||||||::::____| (Pardon the ascii graphics)

And next turn you have:

Divine Right (1)
||||||||||||||||||||::::|

Looks normal so far. But in a multiplayer team game, you may end up with something like this:

Divine Right (1)
|||||||||||||||::::____|

Even though you don't go all the way to the end, your entire team will have enough beakers to research Divine Right in one turn. Now who gets it?

As stated above, even though the game is set to a "simultaneous turns" mode, the computer still calculates things one player at a time, that's just how computers operate. (Though one could talk about randomizing the turns, I think that's for another thread.) Lets say there were 3 players on your team, Bob, Fred and Jill.

Bob goes first and fills in his technology:

|||||||||||||||||||____|

Fred goes second but can't quite fill it out:

||||||||||||||||||||||_|

And Jill finishes it off:

||||||||||||||||||||||||

Because Jill finished it off, she gets to found Islam.

This means if someone is producing a large number of beakers (2-3x their allies) then the law of averages states that it is more likely for them to get the bonus from the learned technology, thus creating the appearance that "whomever has the most overflow gets it."

You can see this in action by setting up a team game with a friend of yours, and one of you researching Meditation and the other Polytheism. The player researching Meditation will found Buddhism and the player researching Polytheism will found Hinduism.

I hope this helps.

 

[tensheapz]

Whoever ended turn first the round before completion, if team game the team that ended their turns first.

That sounds like it could be correct. Can anyone verify this?
I guess thats an incentive to hurry people up, if only the turn before they complete a wonder or religion tech.

 

[Innawerkz]

While I am still new to multiplayer, and cannot speculate on who gets the buildings when 2 (or more) civs build a wonder at the same time, I think I can shed some light on the whole simultaneous discovery of technology in a team game.

<snip>

I hope this helps.

Actually... it does. A lot. In a team game it would be ideal to have the guy in the back (Inland Sea or Donut) playing with the religion. Usually he is building the Wonders (Org Rel) & has the bigger cities because of less whipping. He also would have better opportunity to spread the faith, as compared to someone on the front lines. Now we know we can research up to '1 turn' and have everyone switch off to the next tech while the desired person gets the religion. Pretty sweet.

Any idea if there is some kind of programming against religion-hording? It seems that any subsequent religions seem weighted to go to teammates without a religion already.

Ex. If we all research Meditation, I get Buddhism. We all switch to Polytheism and Teammate 2 gets Hindu. Not sure if that is simply fluke or not, but it seems to spread it throughout the available teams. Just luck?

 

[Kesshi]

Actually... it does. A lot. In a team game it would be ideal to have the guy in the back (Inland Sea or Donut) playing with the religion. Usually he is building the Wonders (Org Rel) & has the bigger cities because of less whipping. He also would have better opportunity to spread the faith, as compared to someone on the front lines. Now we know we can research up to '1 turn' and have everyone switch off to the next tech while the desired person gets the religion. Pretty sweet.

I'm glad it helped

The only flaw is not all people are equal...AND 3 people are greater than 1. If 3 people researching together can discover Polytheism in 1 turn, then 1 person alone might take 5 turns to discover Polytheism. Also what if your enemies are also focusing on Polytheism? If they are, chances are they'll get the religion before you.

Any idea if there is some kind of programming against religion-hording? It seems that any subsequent religions seem weighted to go to teammates without a religion already.

Ex. If we all research Meditation, I get Buddhism. We all switch to Polytheism and Teammate 2 gets Hindu. Not sure if that is simply fluke or not, but it seems to spread it throughout the available teams. Just luck?

I've done some basic testing, and there is no coding against team-mate religion-hording. Only city-religion-hording. Meaning:

1) If you have 3 religions in all your cities, and your partner(s) has zero religions in all of his cities, and YOU found Confucianism, the religion will randomly go to one of your cities.

2) If you have 5 cities, and 4 cities have 5 religions each, the 1 city with 0-4 religions will be the new religion's Holy city.*

3) There is a common misconception that religions need roads connecting and/or open boarders to spread. This is false. Religions WILL spread without roads connecting, and without open boarders.**

*I have not extensively tested this, and I might be wrong.

**I have been playing as Isabella due to her starting tech a lot lately. Fishing = research, and her other tech gives her the research boost. I started a new Prince game to try a few new strategies, and ended up with an awesome starting location. Had two crabs right next to the city, and two fresh water lakes in her BFC, along with other goodies on land. Regardless, two crabs + two fresh water lakes = I got Buddhism and Hinduism before the computer players. I had slow production, but I ended up with all 7 religions in that one city by about 1000 AD. Yes, I managed to make a Holy Holy Holy Holy Holy Holy Holy city. I still have the 4000 BC save if you'd like I could upload it here for fun. I digress...Regardless, even without open boarders and sans roads connecting my civ to others, my religions were still spreading. They seem to spread much quicker with roads and/or open boarders, but even without, they'll still find their way into enemy territories. I think it has to do with cultural boarders touching, but I'm not 100% sure.

Good luck.