Sirius Intra-Team Pitboss Game!

[Lord Parkin]

Darius and Mansa.

Sure thing! Another double Financial combo, I see.

What map type and settings are we playing? or are we going to mirror the demogame?

We don't yet know what the demogame settings are, and there's no way we're going to know exactly what the map is like (being custom made). But anyway, even if we could copy it, I think it's more fun if we just go on a random map than if we specifically try to copy every detail of the demogame.

I'd like to join, if there's still room.
Gimme what you want, it's just for understand the mechanics.

Sure, I'll put you on the list and you should be on a team shortly. I think it's only fair to go with the leader picks of the first people to join though.

I still have a few issues before we go rushing off into the games (sorry ). Although this gam is friendly the double civ thing just gives stronger players even more leverage over the weaker players.

Not a huge amount more, I think. The stronger players already have a big advantage regardless of the game settings, and as this is intended to be just a fun game, I think it's cool to try out something different. I'm happy to agree to some house rules that would limit the power of the stronger players (for instance, I've already mentioned disallowing the stronger players from declaring war until 1 AD, other things could potentially be added too).

Also we already have 11 (maybe 12) signups and it is not fair that those people have to miss out from the start or have to only have one while others get to control 2 civs.

Thing is though, there's no real way around this, unless we start a game with a whole bunch of AI's which people periodically take over as they sign up for the game, and that's not really fair to them (the AI is a bit cruddy compared to almost all human players slightly familiar with the game). There are always going to be people who sign up after a few days, weeks, or even months, and want to play. And there's no way to include them all in a regular all-human game unless we indefinitely postpone the start date, and that's no fun for the rest of us.

BUT, there is a solution in this 18 player double civ thing, because it means that the 9 free slots in the game are played by humans until someone takes them, so they won't be sabotaged due to the AI. Sure it means some people only get to play one civ for a while, while others play two (although I expect by the end we might all be playing just one civ, if only because of the time it takes to play in the later game), and maybe that's not ideal.

But the alternative is either: (a) start a game with (now) 11 people playing 1 civ each, in which case anyone who signs up from this point on also faces the same problem of being left out, or (b) start a game with 11 humans and 7 AI's, which new people signing up can take over - but I've already mentioned the problem with this (the AI starts will be poorer because the AI doesn't play as well as even a semi-decent human). Personally, I think our current option - where all 18 civs are played by humans, and new players can take over one on a team - is the best one. There's no perfect solution, just an optimal one, and I think this is it.

However if you need my picks I'll take Zara and Napoleon

Okay, sounds good.

So, this is the state of things now:

Signups and Leaders:

1. Lord Parkin - Ragnar and Huayna Capac
2. azzaman333 - Shaka and Hannibal
3. hell_hound - Zara Yaqob and Napoleon
4. champinoman - Willem van Oranje and Julius Caesar
5. fed1943 - Darius I and Mansa Musa
6. DaveShack - Pericles and Gandhi
7. Irgy - Elizabeth and Genghis Khan
8. Allan79 - Pacal II and Louis XIV
9. caveman1917 - Lincoln and Augustus Caesar
10. pindicator - can join any team above... speak up if you only want to play 1 leader, he can take the other
11. BLubmuz - can join any team above... speak up if you only want to play 1 leader, he can take the other

 

[caveman1917]

10. pindicator - can join any team above... speak up if you only want to play 1 leader, he can take the other
11. BLubmuz - can join any team above... speak up if you only want to play 1 leader, he can take the other

I wouldn't mind playing either one or two civs, if you need volunteers.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I wouldn't mind playing either one or two civs, if you need volunteers.

Okay, thanks of volunteering. If you're playing just 1 civ, which would you rather be: Lincoln or Augustus? Then your teammate can take the other one.

 

[Altjung]

Sorry I missed the last couple of days. I could be a student of a patient leader. Otherwise, I could just observe, if possible. I have seen the summary of the moves on the Civstats page, but I don't know how to see the game itself, or whether I can see it if I don't actually play.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Technically it could be possible for you to observe the game. But someone would need to send you their password, so that you can log into the game into their civ.

I'll put you on the list of people to potentially join up on a team.

 

[DaveShack]

It's possible to start the game upon knowing all 18 leaders and the remainder of the settings. We know the leaders, so if we can get settings nailed down in the next 4 hours or so it could start tonight, or certainly by tomorrow. Then as people want to join and take one of the civs from the 2-civ players they can just pick up the civ on the next turn.

As in the main MTDG warmup, I'd set the timer very long, like 72 hours for the first couple of turns. If the double civ players hold off on playing their 2nd civ till the end, then players who join will be in on the 1st turn.

There is no hurry of course, I don't want to rush anyone into starting before they think we're ready. Just letting y'all know that once we are ready it can start without much delay.

 

[Irgy]

The sooner we get this started the more it will serve its purpose of practise *before* the team game. I'm all for starting soon. I propose we just use the settings that are currently winning in our team vote for game settings, on the assumption that most people would vote the same way for this and they're our current best guess at the team game settings anyway.

 

[Altjung]

Technically it could be possible for you to observe the game. But someone would need to send you their password, so that you can log into the game into their civ.

I'll put you on the list of people to potentially join up on a team.

A potential I am then. For now I'll follow the summaries on Civstats.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Good to know, Dave.

I've had a play around with generating maps, and I think I've got it down to my two favourites. I suggest we all vote between these ones.

Option 1: Huge Fractal with Low Sea

- Likely to be two or more continents with several civs each
- Contact with many civs will not be possible until Optics/Astronomy
- Very few (or no) islands
- Unlikely to have an isolated civ (though possible), although because it's a team game the other teammate should be able to meet other civs

Example maps:

Spoiler :

Option 2: Huge Big_and_Small with Low Sea, Normal Continents, Islands, Islands Mixed In

- Likely to be one main continent with lots of smaller islands
- Contact with all (or almost all) civs should be possible pre-Optics/Astronomy
- Plenty of islands
- More likely to have an isolated civ, although because it's a team game the other teammate should be able to meet other civs

Example maps:

Spoiler :

Regardless of the map chosen, I highly suggest we go Huge with Low Sea (so everyone has enough room), and a Temperate climate (since we'll be fairly cramped with 18 players already, no need to give some people crappier land).

 

[Lord Parkin]

As for game settings - I only propose we turn off Vassals (because they're broken between humans, even more so between human teams). I'm also leaning towards turning off tech trading, just to prevent tech progress from being insanely fast, as I'm presuming we'll be on a relatively low difficulty level so the newer players have a chance (e.g. not being swamped by barbs - although I definitely think we should keep barbs on as they're a key part of balancing early expansion). With teams, low difficulty level, and tech trading on, I fear tech progress will be so fast as to mean you hardly have time to build anything before it's obsolete. Plus going with "tech trading off" is a good chance to get some experience with knowing when to research what techs, since you can no longer simply "backfill" as soon as you get Alphabet.

Everything else I propose we leave as defaults to preserve as much of the atmosphere of a "normal MP game" as possible. Difficulty-wise, I don't mind as long as everyone's in the same boat... although since we have a few newer players, I suggest we don't go too high.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Here's some analysis of the teams, for those interested:

1. Ragnar (Agg/Fin) and Huayna Capac (Ind/Fin) - Fishing/Hunting/Mysticism/Agriculture (4)
2. Shaka (Agg/Exp) and Hannibal (Fin/Cha) - Agriculture/Hunting/Fishing/Mining (4)
3. Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org) and Napoleon (Org/Cha) - Hunting/Mining/The Wheel/Agriculture (4)
4. Willem van Oranje (Fin/Cre) and Julius Caesar (Org/Imp) - Fishing/Agriculture/Mining (3)
5. Darius I (Fin/Org) and Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) - Agriculture/Hunting/The Wheel/Mining (4)
6. Pericles (Cre/Phi) and Gandhi (Phi/Spi) - Fishing/Hunting/Mysticism/Mining (4)
7. Elizabeth (Fin/Phi) and Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp) - Fishing/Mining/The Wheel/Hunting (4)
8. Pacal II (Fin/Exp) and Louis XIV (Cre/Ind) - Mysticism/Mining/The Wheel/Agriculture (4)
9. Lincoln (Phi/Cha) and Augustus Caesar (Ind/Imp) - Fishing/Agriculture/Mining (3)

Trait Analysis

Financial - 8
Creative - 4
Organized - 4
Philosophical - 4
Aggressive - 3
Charismatic - 3
Imperialistic - 3
Industrious - 3
Expansive - 2
Spiritual - 2
Protective - 0

There are a lot of Financial civs - not a surprise, although four out of the eight Financial leaders are contained on two teams (teams 1 and 5), so watch out for the research there. Four Creative leaders are spread across four different teams - so be careful of your borders near them (teams 3, 4, 6 and 8). Two out of the four Organized leaders are contained on one team (team 3), so that team will be able to support a very large empire. Also, two out of the four Philosophical leaders are contained on one team (team 6), so expect to see a large amount of Great People coming from that team.

As for the Aggressive civs, one of the three is on a team with a Charismatic leader (team 2), so watch out for highly promoted units being gifted around on that team. There are three Charismatic civs spread across three different teams (teams 2, 3 and 9), so be careful of the more highly promoted units coming from those teams, especially team 2 with the aforementioned Aggressive trait coupling. There are also three Imperialistic civs on three different teams (teams 4, 7 and 9), so expect to see Settlers coming out of those teams much faster than the others. Three of the teams have Industrious civs (teams 1, 8 and 9), so those teams will be getting a bonus in wonder production over the other six teams. There are two Expansive civs on two different teams (teams 2 and 8), so they alone will gain the benefits of faster Workers and Granaries. Finally, there are two Spiritual civs on two different teams (teams 5 and 6), so look out for quick civic changes between war and peacetime with them.

Interestingly, not a single person picked a Protective leader, so that was the only trait which got left out. Not too surprising though, since it's generally accepted as the worst trait in the game for multiplayer.

Tech Analysis

Mining - 8
Agriculture - 7
Hunting - 6
Fishing - 6
The Wheel - 4
Mysticism - 3

Seven teams have four starting techs, and only two (teams 4 and 9) have three starting techs. Every single team starts with Mining except team 1, so team 1 will be slightly further from chopping forests and revealing Copper at the start of the game. Only two teams start without Agriculture (teams 6 and 7), so they will be the only ones unable to build farms from the start of the game. Six out of the nine teams start with Hunting, so will begin the game with Scouts (teams 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7), while the remaining three teams (teams 4, 8 and 9) will begin the game with Warriors. Only three teams begin the game without the knowledge of Fishing (teams 3, 5 and 8), so they will be unable to build Work Boats at the very start of the game.

Slightly less than half the teams (4) begin the game with The Wheel and the ability to make roads (teams 3, 5, 7 and 8). Of these, two (teams 3 and 5) also begin the game with both Hunting and Agriculture, so are potentially one fast-researched tech from Chariots. The others (teams 7 and 8) have either Hunting or Agriculture, so are still potentially one tech from Chariots, although they will not be able to research it quite as fast. Watch out for early mounted attacks from all of these teams! Finally, a third of the teams (3) begin the game with Mysticism (teams 1, 6 and 8), so it is likely that Buddhism and/or Hinduism will be founded by one of these three teams.

Unique Unit Combo's

Team 1: Quechas and Beserkers - not really much (or any) synergy, though decent in their respective eras of the game
Team 2: Impis and Numidian Cavalry - 2 move Spearmen attacking alongside enhanced 2 move Horse Archers... watch out!
Team 3: Oromo Warriors and Musketeers - severely powerful once the game gets to Gunpowder!
Team 4: East Indiamen and Praetorians - not really much synergy, but watch out in their respective eras of the game!
Team 5: Immortals and Skirmishers - very powerful in the early game, with the ability to rush cities and then defend them easily
Team 6: Phalanxes and Fast Workers - be careful of those fast chopped, Chariot-resistant Axes!
Team 7: Redcoats and Keshiks - no synergy here, but both powerful units to help out in two different parts of the game
Team 8: Holkans and Musketeers - no synergy here, but both are decent units in their respective eras
Team 9: Navy Seals and Praetorians - obviously no synergy, but both extremely potent in their respective eras of the game

Unique Buildings

Note these can't be present in the same city at the same time, but it's still interesting to check them out.

Team 1: Terraces and Trading Posts - both good early game buildings
Team 2: Ikhandas and Cothons - very respectable, lower maintenance and more trade routes
Team 3: Steles and Salons - neither are particularly powerful, but still nice to have
Team 4: Levees and Forums - the former is exceptionally powerful, the latter very useful to have... a good combination
Team 5: Apothecaries and Mints - extra health and gold, never a bad thing
Team 6: Odeons and Mausoleums - plenty of extra happiness for this team, good synergy!
Team 7: Stock Exchanges and Gers - completely unrelated, but both very useful to have
Team 8: Ball Courts and Salons - the extra happiness will be handy, the free Artist less so
Team 9: Malls and Forums - both give good bonuses in their respective parts of the game

Hope this has been interesting to some of you.

 

[Lord Parkin]

By the way, my vote on the map type for this game goes for Huge Big_and_Small with Low Sea, Normal Continents, Islands, Islands Mixed In.

 

[champinoman]

I'll take any map type.

Nice write up of chosen civs.

 

[Irgy]

I vote for the fractal map. There's too much difference between being on the centre continent and not in many of the other example maps. I don't like the idea of having my two civs separated by ocean though, I'd vote to reroll maps with isolated civs (I assume someone is looking at the map to at least place the teamed civs next to each other?).

I'd prefer tech trading on. It seems like you could easily fall too far behind and never catch up with trading off - but I haven't tried it so I don't really know.

 

[DaveShack]

I was thinking of turning off random events. As for tech trading, it would be nice to know what the setting will be for the regular game and play the same, but not essential.

I had not planned to look at the map, to avoid gaining an unfair advantage. But if enough of us want the teamed civs to be close to each other then it would be possible to arrange the starts that way and then forget most of it.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I vote for the fractal map. There's too much difference between being on the centre continent and not in many of the other example maps. I don't like the idea of having my two civs separated by ocean though, I'd vote to reroll maps with isolated civs (I assume someone is looking at the map to at least place the teamed civs next to each other?).

Sounds like a fair point. Okay, I change my vote to Fractal then, so we can get this thing started as soon as possible.

See below for a solution to a map with isolated civs.

I'd prefer tech trading on. It seems like you could easily fall too far behind and never catch up with trading off - but I haven't tried it so I don't really know.

You can still gift cities to help someone's research rate, or (more importantly) use espionage to steal techs from someone more advanced than you. So it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Personally I think I'd rather not have alliances of teams blitzing through the tech tree and never having any time to build anything along the way. That kind of game is less interesting to me.

I was thinking of turning off random events. As for tech trading, it would be nice to know what the setting will be for the regular game and play the same, but not essential.

Random events off is fine with me. With tech trading, if we wait for the vote from the main game we could be here for another couple of weeks before this one gets started. So I'd rather we just came to our own consensus.

I had not planned to look at the map, to avoid gaining an unfair advantage. But if enough of us want the teamed civs to be close to each other then it would be possible to arrange the starts that way and then forget most of it.

Here's a potential solution: Simply generate a whole bunch of Fractal maps, saving only the ones which have no civs isolated from their teammates. Once you have somewhere between 3-5 of these maps saved (and it shouldn't take much more than 5-10 regenerations, since at least half of the Fractal maps seem to keep all teams together)... at that stage, you pick one of the saved maps at random, and run with that one. If you're anything like me, after all those regenerations you should be unable to recall which map is which (let alone any details of any of them).

Sound good?

 

[Lord Parkin]

By the way, if we have tech trading off, then having one team isolated from the others doesn't really matter at all (just as long as the individual civs of that team aren't isolated). For instance, I'd be perfectly happy with a 16/2 or 8/8/2 split if I was the 2, just as long as tech trading was off.

In other words: I don't mind whether or not I'm isolated on the map with tech trading off, and I don't think anybody else should mind either.

Tech trading off would also make map generation/balancing a lot easier. For one example, a game with a 12/6 split and tech trading on is not balanced, because the 12 have far better options for becoming technologically advanced. However, with tech trading off, this map is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Irgy]

I'd just kind of assumed that the two civs would start practically on top of each other - in other words, that it would be like generating a map for 9 civs (except bigger), then placing two settlers and two warriors/scouts somewhere near each of the 9 starting points. I'm happy to do it this way though, it sounds like there isn't a straightforward method of doing it the other way.

Is there anyone who's not playing that can look at the map?

Happy to try tech trading off to effectively help balance the starts.

On a technical point though I don't agree that espionage or city gifting are a substitute for tech trading when it comes to catching up in technology. EP aren't any easier to generate than beakers, so I don't see how that helps. All that being behind gives you is more options for what to steal, but the people in the middle that you're trying to catch up to will still have things to steal themselves so you don't really have much of an advantage there.

And I can't imagine why anyone would gift you a commerce city just to help you catch up. Catching up via trade works because each person you trade with is getting something they actually want themselves. They don't want you to catch up, but they lose out by not trading with you when everyone else is.

You do have a point though that tech trading can cause people to fall behind a lot faster in the first place.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I'd just kind of assumed that the two civs would start practically on top of each other - in other words, that it would be like generating a map for 9 civs (except bigger), then placing two settlers and two warriors/scouts somewhere near each of the 9 starting points. I'm happy to do it this way though, it sounds like there isn't a straightforward method of doing it the other way.

It's probably the easiest and quickest way of doing it, and to be honest I'm just keen to get going as soon as possible.

On a technical point though I don't agree that espionage or city gifting are a substitute for tech trading when it comes to catching up in technology. EP aren't any easier to generate than beakers, so I don't see how that helps.

It helps because the amount of EP required to steal a tech is much less (usually about half or less) than the amount of beakers required to obtain that tech yourself. You might ask, then, why anyone would bother researching at all when they can just steal techs. Research does have one advantage on its side - you can't steal a tech that hasn't been discovered yet. So espionage alone can never get you the free Great People from discovering particular techs first, or the free tech from Liberalism. Plus if you want to build a particular wonder, you're better off teching yourself rather than relying on someone else to research it and then stealing it from them (because they'll have a head start on building it by that point).

But the main point is that espionage is certainly a very effective way of keeping up in tech if you're falling behind. All you have to do is focus your economy on espionage, focus all that espionage on one or two people, and build plenty of Spies. Hiring Spy specialists to get a Great Spy to use against someone is also massively helpful.

All that being behind gives you is more options for what to steal, but the people in the middle that you're trying to catch up to will still have things to steal themselves so you don't really have much of an advantage there.

So you steal from the people in the middle until you catch up to them, and then start stealing from the people in the lead. Or just steal consistently from the people in the lead. Either way, it works.

And I can't imagine why anyone would gift you a commerce city just to help you catch up. Catching up via trade works because each person you trade with is getting something they actually want themselves. They don't want you to catch up, but they lose out by not trading with you when everyone else is.

True, this is more of a last-ditch effort thing. If one civ is quite far in the lead and the others don't have much hope of catching up, they might choose to gift many of their cities to the second strongest player in order to help their research and make the game competitive. Although ideally, with people using espionage appropriately, that situation shouldn't arise in the first place.

 

[fed1943]

Nice analisys on the strong points of each team.
Now I just thinking on the weak points of mine (the 5 one) :
one Spiritual no Misticysm and two Financial no Fishing.
About the map: as you wish.