Sitting Bull Early Strategy

[Virulent]

I was thinking about giving Sitting Bull and the Native Americans a shot in BtS but looking over their stats I noticed a few things:

-The NA UB is the Totem Poll which gives extra Exp to archery units and replaces the monument. Furthermore Sitting Bull is protective which grants even more bonuses to archery units.

-The NA UU is the Dog Solider which replaces Axeman and requires no resources.

-The starting techs are Fishing and Agriculture.

The starting techs are the issue with me. In order to make use of his UB you need to learn Mysticism and Hunting->Archery. For his UU you need Mining->Bronze Working.

This isn't counting taking detours to Meditation/Polytheism if you want to try for an early religion (might not be a good idea since he doesn't start with Mysticism) or going for The Wheel to hook up resources and Pottery to build cottages.

Anybody have suggestions for a good early tech order for Sitting Bull? I was almost thinking of starting with an Advanced Start and buying Mysticism/Hunting/Archery right off the bat.

 

[petey]

Because of the lack of the need for Copper, the NAs give a great early Axe rush strategy. You don't have to take the time to build a Settler and get a second city before spamming out your Dog Soldiers.

I've found that the best strategy is Warrior-Worker while teching up to BW, although you may want to also throw a Work Boat in there if you have a Seafood resource since you start with Fishing and you're going to be whipping a lot. Have your initial Warrior and the one you built find the nearest capital and try to either grab a Worker or just sit on a hill and force the AI to turtle.

Then start chopping/whipping Dog Soldiers and throwing them at the AI's capital. At lower levels, they're still defending with Warriors, so this is an easy win. At higher levels, they'd have Archers there, so you'd need a greater number of Dog Soldiers to bust through them.

Also, grab Animal Husbandry after BW, so that you can see where the AI's Horses are, so you don't have to deal with Chariots, which would kill the whole strategy.

 

[Scaphism]

Sitting Bull is very strong in the early game. His starting techs aren't bad at all, but they do stop him from an absolutely brutal rush with a big headstart.

If you have 2 or more seafood in your capital you can forgo a worker in the early game, which is really really big. Research mining and bronzeworking right away - you can have Dog Soldiers out before anyone has any axemen, even the civs that start with mining. (Who has Mining+Wheel? Mansa Musa, does anyone else?)

Stonehenge is nice if you want GP. It's easy enough to sit back with a Dog Soldier or two and snag it without many problems.
I've started a lot of games as Sitting Bull already (haven't completed them, just gone through the early game) and found that Stonehenge is nice but not necessary. You can beeline Bronze Working just about as quickly as you can beeline archery, and there is 0 doubt in my mind that Mining->BW is a vastly superior set of techs than Hunting->Archery. You can be producing archers at the same time as Dog Warriors but if you plan to be aggressive at all then Dog Warriors are superior. Protective archers are nice, but at that point you won't have a barracks so you're talking about a Drill1CG1 Archer vs 4Str+100%vMelee Dog Soldier. After you have both barracks and totem poles, building some 6XP archers is fun but still not a great offensive force.

I also found that if I waited for Stonehenge it slowed the number of cities I had, and frankly I didn't want to be producing archers in every city at that point so the Totem Pole was a nice idea but basically just a normal monument in practice. In a strong production (military) city I could build a Totem Pole there without any issues and it could crank out archers for any new cities.

A truly amazing start for Sitting Bull would be 2 seafood resources in a coastal capital with stone in the fat cross or just outside. Sitting Bull + Stone would be a monster - Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Great Wall would all play to his strengths. (Stonehenge for Free UBs, Pyramids for Rep+Philosophical, Great Wall for Spy economy and making neighbors even less likely to attack you in your own borders - as if anyone would be foolish enough to attack Sitting Bull in the early game!)

 

[futurehermit]

Axe rush first and then use protective archers to defend your conquered territory. Fishing/ag means good early growth for your capital at land or sea. To me that means liberal whipping early on (another vote for BW).

Put the GL in a conquered enemy capital and then bulb your way to liberalism.

Protective gunpowder troops are very strong so a nice renaissance war seems fitting.

 

[Chrispy]

My early strategy would be Mining-BW to get the Dog Soldiers. Then Mysticism and make a run for Stonehenge while teching to Archery. The combination of being able to whip out a CGII archer when a conquered city comes out of revolt and having immediate culture is very nice.

Because Dog Soldiers are built without resources, the only risk in this strategy is chariots.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Thus far, I haven't been impressed by Dog rushing. Maybe I'm too slow (I abandoned the axe rush long ago, so I'm out of practice), but it has felt to me as though the strength difference makes a rush a less comfortable proposition against fortified archers.

My thinking has been more in the direction of obsolete's INCONCEIVABLE! walkthrus. Take advantage of the resource-free nature of your early defense and the philosophical trait to emphasize city quality.

 

[Virulent]

So the best start seems to be Mining-> BW for Dog Solider rush and then start worrying about Mystism/Hunting/Archery and fill up the rest of the gaps afterward.

Possibly a good start would be axe rushing an early neighbor or two expand a little bit and then use his super archers to turtle. If you can build the Statue of Zeus and possibly Chichen Itza nobody would be crazy enough to declare war on you especially if you have longbows.

The turtle strategy could possibly work with a Culture win, the downside is that axe rushing usually means forgoing an early religion which are quite useful for culture wins.

Another downside to Axe rushing would be if you are unlucky to start next Hammurabi and he has archers as his bowmen get a melee bonus.

 

[AlessioCerci]

Thus far, I haven't been impressed by Dog rushing. Maybe I'm too slow (I abandoned the axe rush long ago, so I'm out of practice), but it has felt to me as though the strength difference makes a rush a less comfortable proposition against fortified archers.

My thinking has been more in the direction of obsolete's INCONCEIVABLE! walkthrus. Take advantage of the resource-free nature of your early defense and the philosophical trait to emphasize city quality.

Yeah ive tried axe-rushing with dog soldiers and suffered huge losses. Not good - id prefer to have a regular axeman in that situation. I'll have to try your idea about using obsolete's strat, sounds good. (is it just me or when you read the words "INCONCEIVABLE walkthrus" did it look a bit like INCONCEIVABLE walrus )

 

[mice]

My thinking has been more in the direction of obsolete's INCONCEIVABLE! walkthrus. Take advantage of the resource-free nature of your early defense and the philosophical trait to emphasize city quality.

I managed to combine the Obsolete inconceivable approach, and the puppy-rush. Admittedly it was on Noble, but after grabbing a second capital I just used it's GPP(from built wonder) to mass settle both capitals. The advantage was that I had four National wonder spots for my uber cities, not just two.

 

[Melon Head]

Honestly, I don't think that Sitting Bull is as great a rusher. I think he's a bit worse. The dog warriors are great if you're fighting axemen or swords, but against archers they're actually worse than normall axes. That means it's not as good as an early rush. On the other hand, I think that Sitting bull can use his dog warriors to turtle in the beginning (particularly in multiplayer), and then expand in the middle-ages. Totem-pole enhanced longbows and crossbows make incredible stack defenders, and if you use your dog warriors to pick off units in the open when they atack you you will probably have a couple of them decently promoted that you can upgrade to maces for an attack.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

My dream start was to get Pyramids (I had stone) and then Oracle to take Feudalism. I had longbows in the BCs - 9xp longbows with barracks and monument. Then took out the civ that had stonehenge for complete awesomeness.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

My start:

Mysticism, Mining (Masonry if stone), BW, Hunting, Archery, to Pottery

I do try to build Stonehenge to get cities pumping units faster and the bonus om the archers.

I try to get barracks early, and build workers as needed. BW helps to chop/whip Stonehenge and maybe GW if I have stone...

 

[Yushal]

A couple dogmen and a couple archers inside the enemy BFC and your early game competition is neutralized. Make peace at your leisure.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Forget about using Sitting Bull. I'm a huge fan of mix and matching civ's and leaders. I use Boudica now as my #1 Military Leader. I think a rush to Bronze working is the key with this set up.

 

[futurehermit]

i didn't realize dogs were -1 strength. in that case i think you're better off rexing a bit early to nab some land, use protective to ward off enemies while lightbulbing to key military techs, then expand and use protective to ward off enemies again, then lightbulb to key military techs...you get the picture.

of course if you want to go with obsolete's approach that is good as well although some things have changed in the xpac and lightbulbing the 'mids off a GE off the GW is no longer possible...

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Forget about using Sitting Bull. I'm a huge fan of mix and matching civ's and leaders. I use Boudica now as my #1 Military Leader. I think a rush to Bronze working is the key with this set up.

Right on, my friend!

Try Boudica with the Sumerians. Combat I free on a Vulture and faster promotions rule the roost. Add the Ziggeraut available with Priesthood and you have an early REX that encompasses at least one neighbour...

But back to SB. The Dog Soldier is a good anti melee unit, and as such, it's worth having one in each city to take the heat off the Archers. But ultimately, you will want to work with them to keep your neighbour down until you have the strength to put him away. Promote your CR dogs on Barbs and stray units then go for the cities...

 

[kniteowl]

I Don't know about rushing with DS, I'd only Do it if my Neighbor is neither Protective, Creative has a Holy City Capital or Has a Capital on a Hill, because that -1 Strength is a big disadvantage.

At least Chariots can move quickly and are cheaper, an Impi rush would also be better.

Personally I'd do a Longbow Rush, Oracle to Feudalism switch to Vassalage and you have 8XP Longbows 2XP away from the Deady Drill IV and if you get lucky you could get yourself a GG and Produce in you're Heroic Epic City Drill IV Archery Units.

 

[johnny_rico]

The best start I've had thus far with SB was a food rich capital and stone in my second city. Built the second city to gain cows and stone with overlapping corn in the capital. Built the GW and the pyramids. Began making demands of all my neighbors goading them into attacking, which they did. Got a couple of GG's, got the GL, and started bulbing. Built a third city for more units but was in poor territory. Eventually built enough of a force to go on the offensive, however, in cleaning up my BtS single saves folder, I deleted all the SB games on accident. Game ends around 600 AD and haven't seen a start as good since.

I don't think he's a good rusher, and certainly doesn't need a UB in every city. I haven't been founding a religion with him. He's one of those leaders that is pulled in every direction on the tech tree. Stone is really what makes him tick.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Sitting Bull is my new favourite leader! I am a defensive player. A barracks + Totem Pole + Protective means super defense. I like having lots of GP, so his traits are perfect.

 

[madscientist]

I have tried sitting bull a few times. I think his key is to be a rock hard defender. Stonehenge is not important, have 1 or 2 cities with totem is enough to build great archers. Dog warriors with a super promoted archer and one spear are excellent defenders. Build the great wall and beeline asthetics and build the staue of Zues. With resourcelss dog warriors superpromoted archers, the great wall for faster GG's and Zues far greater war weariness noone is going to want to mess arround and if they do it's a suicide mission (getting more GG and promted units. Meanwhile use his philosphical trait to get to education (fast universities) and liberalism quickly. I think Bull is uqipeed to peacefully go to space.