Skills needed for Civ 5 modding?

[GlobularFoody]

What sort of skills would one need to mod Civ 5? I figure if I start learning stuff now, I might have a shot at creating the mod I have in mind. I know a decent amount of Python now but not much else, hopefully I can wrap my brain around other languages if needed.

 

[phungus420]

Since it's announced it will use XML as the data container, and have C++ SDK, and it's implied it will use Lua as a scripting language, the answer is that what you need to know will depend entirely on what you intend to do. If all you want to do is add new objects of types that already exist, or tweak values in the existing data, all you'll need to do is be able to read and write; as that's all one needs to be able to do to modify XML. For more advanced modifications, like adding entirely new concepts or structures, you'll obviously need to be semi profficient with C. Python is pretty similar to C though, despite what anyone tells you, so you should be fine if you understand python.

 

[Thyrwyn]

The leap from Python to C++ can be helped with a good reference book. There are also several decent online C++ references. Just search for C++ tutorial.

 

[phungus420]

I really don't see how Python and C++ are that different. Python is a little bit more straightforward with arrays (lists), and it's totally anal about whitespace, but all and all it's pretty much the same. Oh and since C is an old language where memory was actually important, you have to specifically declare what type of data is being stored in a variable when you create one. But loops, and using and calling functions is pretty much the same. Granted I've never done any high level coding, all pretty straightforward stuff, but if you're asking the question the OP is I doubt you're intending on doing high level stuff anyway.

 

[The_J]

The skills needed for basic modding will sure be the same like in Civ 4: common sense and the ability to read some tutorials.

 

[LDiCesare]

I really don't see how Python and C++ are that different. Python is a little bit more straightforward with arrays (lists), and it's totally anal about whitespace, but all and all it's pretty much the same. Oh and since C is an old language where memory was actually important, you have to specifically declare what type of data is being stored in a variable when you create one. But loops, and using and calling functions is pretty much the same. Granted I've never done any high level coding, all pretty straightforward stuff, but if you're asking the question the OP is I doubt you're intending on doing high level stuff anyway.

Errr. Python manages memory for you. C++ doesn't. That is a huge, enormous, awesome difference. Not having to declare the type, but knowing that you must new/delete or new[]/delete[]. Also, C++ has pointers. And some smart pointers. And passing by value or reference. C++ also has some tricky stuff like needing the virtual keyword on the destructor if you declare some virtual method and plan your subclasses' destructors to be called. Unless your superclass already declared the destructor virtual, that is.
Python is way easier than C++. It's not 'a little more straightforward'. Iterate through a map in C++ and compare that to python. Use slices in python and look at what you've got in C++.

 

[Ahriman]

1. Rhythm.
2. Music.
3. ???
4. Profit.

 

[Dale]

What sort of skills would one need to mod Civ 5? I figure if I start learning stuff now, I might have a shot at creating the mod I have in mind. I know a decent amount of Python now but not much else, hopefully I can wrap my brain around other languages if needed.

Well first and foremost, the most important two skills one needs is:

1. The ability to come up with an idea.
2. The ability to throw an idea out cuz it sucked.

If you can do those two, you're well on your way to modding.

And before you question my comments, to mod you need an idea. It also needs to be a good idea. One that fills a perceived gap in the game. For instance, in Civ4 there was a huge gap in bomber abilities, so I came up with the bomber missions mod to fully flesh out bombers and make them much much more useful and important.

Secondly, the ability to throw an idea out is very important. It is unfortunate to see an aspiring new modder come up with an idea, post about it, be told that it's not a good idea and why, and then that modder still uploads the mod and gets frustrated that no one uses it. I see the ability to let something go and move onto the next idea as a very important skill for any designer, be it mod, scenario or even total game designer.

 

[Ahriman]

Secondly, the ability to throw an idea out is very important.

Absolutely. I think the most important task in any mod design is to prevent feature creep.

Brainstorming for all kinds of wacky ideas is great, but you need to be able to think really hard about a feature, and not just "could you add it" but whether adding it would really make the gameplay experience better.

I'd strongly suggest Kale's writeup on designing a mod.
http://planetcivilization.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=23&game=4

I wish people proposing ideas to this forum would read the doc and understand it. In particular the danger of more, and the problem of complexity.

 

[phungus420]

1. The ability to come up with an idea.
2. The ability to throw an idea out cuz it sucked.

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

 

[eireksten]

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

I don't see why that makes it false. No matter how easy it supposedly is to come up with them, you still need ideas. And if you want your mod to succeed, being able to accept that not all ideas improve the game is extremely important.

 

[phungus420]

I don't see why that makes it false. No matter how easy it supposedly is to come up with them, you still need ideas. And if you want your mod to succeed, being able to accept that not all ideas improve the game is extremely important.

It's a stupid and pointless thing to say. It's like saying you need to be alive. Sure, you need to be living to be able to mod. But everyone reading this forum is alive, and everyone reading this forum can come up with ideas. These atributes are not going to make you a good modder, they are just part of being human.

 

[EdCase]

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

Idea guys who can recognize that it is a bad one are one in a million.

All "types" are a dime a dozen. Gifted individuals within a type are priceless.

Don't let your "reality bias" blind you.
Without inspiration you get MOO3, with inspiration you get Sword of the Stars.(My personal bias showing)

 

[Ahriman]

Moo3 is a great example of what happens when designers can't say no to bad ideas.

 

[Dale]

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

Yes idea guys are a dime a dozen, but how many people on CFC can come up with ideas that add to the gameplay experience, is fun, and doesn't break other things on the way? Sure I could throw a million ideas at you, let's say "battles are played in real time first person point of view, and require 100 players on each side to control each person in the unit". It's an idea, but very impractical for Civ. Yet there are people on these forums who persist with a bad idea and then get frustrated and never participate again when told why the idea won't work.

It's part of being a designer, and the first skills you need to be a designer. Otherwise you will ultimately fail. It's that simple, and why it's important to bring it up as a skill.

 

[The_J]

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

You're sure also right, but putting a crappy or senseless idea will not result in anything.
For example, you can look at the modpacks forum and you'll see 1 or 2 threads, where you can clearly see, that there's no real idea behind the mod itself (besides putting 10 civs and 3 new units in), and that it will never be able to compete against other mods with an idea behind them.

On the other site, you can also see projects, where the idea itself got soooo big, that it was or will never be finished. That's also the time, where you have to get rid of the idea itself.

So you're both are right.
You need to have an idea, the ability to abandon the idea, and the will to put some work into your project.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Here's hoping it's not much more complicated than civ4, although they're all but said it will be easier. I got a lot done without any previous programing experience, (except BASIC) so I look forward to still being able to do it.

 

[Crazy George]

All "types" are a dime a dozen. Gifted individuals within a type are priceless.

Oooh, I like that.

But more importantly, what we're basically saying is that with a good idea and a little pocket change, I should be able to get somebody else to do my modding for me. 'Cause that's sounding like the best idea of all.

But just in case it doesn't work out that way, my personal plan is to do a little reading on Lua.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

I don't see why that makes it false. No matter how easy it supposedly is to come up with them, you still need ideas. And if you want your mod to succeed, being able to accept that not all ideas improve the game is extremely important.

You need idea but no one ever said they had to be your own

If you have the ability to sift the wheat from the chaff you can find all the good ideas you need on the forums, their full of people spewing ideas and begging someone to "PLEZZ help make this @W50ME mod!!111 I have no SKILZZZ!!!111", sure 90+% of it is crap but I've found and implemented lots of nice ideas this way.

 

[Afforess]

Well first and foremost, the most important two skills one needs is:

1. The ability to come up with an idea.
2. The ability to throw an idea out cuz it sucked.

If you can do those two, you're well on your way to modding.

This is so false it's not even funny. Everyone and everyone can come up with ideas. Putting them into practice is another matter entirely. Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

Both of you are close...yet, totally off.

As Phungus said, just coming up with ideas is meaningless. I can think of 100's of ideas for Civ mods. Thinking up practical and implementable ideas is important. Some ideas are just impossible in the Civ universe, or would bring mico-management to an extreme that no player wants to face.

Dale is dead on about the second part though. Sometimes I will plan an idea out throughly only to eventually discard it because flaws that ultimately ruin it. Some barriers can not be overcome.

There is an important 3rd and 4th requirement everyone else touched on.

3.) The ability to learn.

Laugh, but some people have really lost the ability to learn new tricks. It happens to the elderly commonly, but people can become so one-sided in some areas that they can not learn anything about certain subjects, due to bias, or just sheer inability.

4.) Perseverance.

Will the person run away from the first error message, the first crash? When I started XML modding I had about 3 error messages for 1 change. Did the person try to analyze the error and solve it, or give up? If it is the latter, modding may not be for you. Countless hours are spent tracking down that one bug that causes random inexplicable crashes.

to Recap, to be a proficient modder, you must be able to:

1.) Create Practical Ideas
2.) Be able to reject ideas, at any stage of development
3.) Be able to Learn
4.) Persevere