Skullduggery Thread for Demohacking

[Maga_R]

emancipation if you're the only one having it is pretty easily fought out...

first your cities needs to be large, like really large to even notice it and then it scales with the number of teams having it...

which is problem in SP after some point, but will be no big impact right now on anyone...

the other aspect (growing cottages) is stronger motivation for sure here... but that would necessarily mean low production for long time...

so if Poly go that way, they can't realistically commit to the war...

Poly chose Lizzy, they are Philisophical - I think their main motivation to go for Demo would be SoL. If they ever go for Demo Can be also as 2metra said - they stole Lib just because they could

@vranasm: how is emancipation unhappiness scaling with the number of teams having it? I vaguely remember from SP that it was typically -6 for me, but I never paid attention to the number of AIs adopting it.

 

[vranasm]

Poly chose Lizzy, they are Philisophical - I think their main motivation to go for Demo would be SoL. If they ever go for Demo Can be also as 2metra said - they stole Lib just because they could

@vranasm: how is emancipation unhappiness scaling with the number of teams having it? I vaguely remember from SP that it was typically -6 for me, but I never paid attention to the number of AIs adopting it.

it is bigger the more teams have it... don't remember exact formula

-6 has to be some 20+ city with like all teams in?

typically you don't even notice it for very long time i typically see something like -1 - -3 unhappy until I kill all AI's ;-)

 

[Maga_R]

it is bigger the more teams have it... don't remember exact formula

-6 has to be some 20+ city with like all teams in?

typically you don't even notice it for very long time i typically see something like -1 - -3 unhappy until I kill all AI's ;-)

I do not really remember - have not played any civ except our intrateam Pitboss for a long while

You mean, if only one AI is running emancipation, the penalty is lower than if more of them are running it - correct?

 

[Aivoturso]

Isn't non-emancipation penalty simply one unhappy for each civ running Emancipation? So in typical standard size game (7 players) you'd end up with 6 unhappy in each city. At least that's what I have thought.

 

[vranasm]

Isn't non-emancipation penalty simply one unhappy for each civ running Emancipation? So in typical standard size game (7 players) you'd end up with 6 unhappy in each city. At least that's what I have thought.

the size of city has influence too, but basically something like that

lower sized cities are capped so you can have size 20 city with -6 and another size 10 with -1 only or something like that...

would have to recheck... didn't play enough of civ lately to know exactly ;-)

but the point still remains you have a lot of leeway with emancipation especially if only 1 team runs it.

 

[Maga_R]

Isn't non-emancipation penalty simply one unhappy for each civ running Emancipation? So in typical standard size game (7 players) you'd end up with 6 unhappy in each city. At least that's what I have thought.

I vaguely remember -6, too - maybe because I played on standard and every other AI was running emancipation. Was too long ago to remember

 

[YossarianLives]

Just a brief note. According to CivStats, CP and RB have each planted new cities this turn (T160).

RB has not taken any cities from the Germans yet this turn (and neither has WPC, but that's pretty much a given).

 

[YossarianLives]

No analysis tonight, but here's the updated tech screen:



And here are a bunch of graphs

Spoiler :

 

[YossarianLives]

Tech screen from T161:



CP researched Guilds. RB ran through almost 400 gold. CP, Poly and UCiv each ran through about 200.

Bunch of graphs:

Spoiler :

 

[YossarianLives]

I finally managed to go through and update our spreadsheet with the most current tech info:

Spoiler :

Still confused? Ok, here's the breakdown.

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 33,627
Up on us:
1 Medieval tech (Paper), 6 Renaissance techs (Economics, Gunpowder, Education, Liberalism, Printing Press, Replaceable Parts)
Down on us:
3 Classical techs (Aesthetics, Drama, Literature)

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 27,075
Up on us:
1 Medieval tech (Paper), 3 Renaissance techs (Education, Liberalism, Printing Press)
Down on us:
1 Medieval tech (Banking)

3. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 21,699
Up on us:
1 Medieval tech (Paper), 2 Renaissance techs (Education, Liberalism)
Down on us:
1 Medieval tech (Banking), 1 Renaissance tech (Nationalism)

4. CFC
Total Beakers = 20,859
Up on us:
---
Down on us:
---

5. CivFr
Total Beakers = 20,355
Up on us:
2 Medieval techs (Paper, Music), 1 Renaissance tech (Printing Press)
Down on us:
1 Medieval tech (Banking), 1 Renaissance tech (Nationalism)

...(big drop)...

6. UCiv
Total Beakers = 8,142
Up on us:
---
Down on us:
2 Ancient techs (Polytheism, Monotheism), 4 Classical techs (Aesthetics, Drama, HorseBack Riding, Literature), 6 Medieval techs (Banking, Engineering, Feudalism, Guilds, Machinery, Philosophy), 1 Renaissance tech (Nationalism)


7. Germans
Total Beakers = 6,327
Up on us:
---
Down on us:
7 Classical techs (Aesthetics, Alphabet, Calendar, Code of Laws, Drama, Literature, Metal Casting), 6 Medieval techs (Banking, Civil Service, Engineering, Guilds, Machinery, Philosophy), 1 Renaissance tech (Nationalism)


8. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 4,446
Up on us:
---
Down on us:
2 Ancient techs (Polytheism, Monotheism), 8 Classical techs (Aesthetics, Alphabet, Code of Laws, Drama, Horseback Writing, Literature, Metal Casting, Monarchy), 7 Medieval techs (Banking, Civil Service, Engineering, Feudalism, Guilds, Machinery, Philosophy), 1 Renaissance tech (Nationalism)

 

[Maga_R]

Thank you, Yossarian, very interesting Did not realize Poly is doing so well, although they must steal more than 10k beakers recently, right?

 

[2metraninja]

Very good idea of comparing those, Yossa. I see some serious mistakes in Uciv's report though. They do have Machinery. And they have Paper, I think even Education, Printing Press and Liberalism. Must check the others too.

 

[YossarianLives]

I see some serious mistakes in Uciv's report though. They do have Machinery. And they have Paper, I think even Education, Printing Press and Liberalism. Must check the others too.

Yeah, I really shorted UCiv. I wondered for a second how their total ended up so low, but instead of double-checking my work, I just chalked it up to them expanding too fast and crashing their economy. Thanks for looking over that.

I missed Machinery, Philosophy, Paper, Printing Press, Education and Liberalism! Their true beaker total is 18,054. So, their ranking is correct, but they belong on our side of the big drop, not with WPC and the Germans.

 

[YossarianLives]

Updated Tech screen:



I didn't take a picture last turn, so here's what has happened over the past two turns.

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 35,979
Researched Rifling!

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 28,755
Researched Gunpowder

3. CFC
Total Beakers = 22,539
Researched Gunpowder

4. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 21,699
Researched nothing

5. UCiv
Total Beakers = 20,742
Researched Engineering and Feudalism

6. CivFr
Total Beakers = 20,355
Researched nothing

7. Germans
Dead

7. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 4,950
Researched Monarchy

 

[YossarianLives]

Updated Tech screen:



New rankings:

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 35,979
Researched nothing

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 28,755
Researched nothing

3. CFC
Total Beakers = 25,899
Researched Chemistry

4. CivFr
Total Beakers = 22,707
Researched Education

5. UCiv
Total Beakers = 22,254
Researched Guilds

6. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 21,699
Researched nothing

7. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 4,950
Researched nothing

 

[YossarianLives]

Updated Tech screen:



New rankings:

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 36,483
Researched Aesthetics

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 29,931
Researched Banking

3. CFC
Total Beakers = 25,899
Researched nothing

4. UCiv
Total Beakers = 23,430
Researched Banking

5. CivFr
Total Beakers = 22,707
Researched nothing

6. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 21,699
Researched nothing

7. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 4,950
Researched nothing

 

[YossarianLives]

Updated Tech screen:



New rankings:

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 36,987
Researched Drama

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 29,931
Researched nothing

3. CFC
Total Beakers = 25,899
Researched nothing

4. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 25,731
Researched Philosophy Stole Nationalism from RB

5. UCiv
Total Beakers = 23,598
Researched Polytheism

6. CivFr
Total Beakers = 22,707
Researched nothing

7. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 5,370
Researched Horseback Riding

 

[YossarianLives]

Updated Tech screen (T167):



New rankings:

1. Apolyton
Total Beakers = 37,323
Researched Literature

2. Realms Beyond
Total Beakers = 29,931
Researched nothing

3. CivPlayers
Total Beakers = 26,739
Researched Music

4. CFC
Total Beakers = 25,899
Researched nothing

5. CivFr
Total Beakers = 24,387
Researched Gunpowder

6. UCiv
Total Beakers = 23,598
Researched nothing

7. WePlayCiv
Total Beakers = 5,370
Researched nothing

 

[YossarianLives]

Ok, T174 just started, we're about to get into it with RB, and I told 2metra I would do some demo-hacking. Let's start with the simple stuff, research:

Spoiler :

I believe RB is on their way to Rifling, just a turn or two away. 2metra can probably say more definitively. Power analysis in the next post.

 

[YossarianLives]

RB's Power numbers recently:

T168: 1284k
T169: 1310k
T170: 1439k
T172: 1239k
T173: 1006k
T174: 1026k

So, they are currently at about 1 million soldier points (down from a high of almost 1.5 million). Those are coming from Tech, Pop, Buildings and Units.

Tech is the most straightforward. We know exactly what they have, so we can conclusively say they have 92k soldier points in tech.

Next is Pop. RB has 32 cities. We have visibility on 28 of them, showing us 180 total population. A conservative estimate is that they have 15-17 pop in their 4 hidden cities. Let's call it 20 to give us a nice round number. That means they have about 200 population for about 100k soldier points in pop (actually a little under this, closer to 95k probably).

Ok, let's look at buildings. Technically, we could zoom into every single city and get a pretty good picture of this, but that would be a pain in the ass. So, let's just make some basic assumptions, they have Forges in every city and Barracks in half their cities. This is probably giving them too much credit, so we won't even count walls or castles or anything like that. So, 32 Forges at 2k soldier points apiece and 16 Barracks at 3k each gives us 112k soldier points. Then we add The Great Wall, Moai and the Heroic Epic gives an estimate of 140k soldier points from buildings.

So far, we have about 330k soldier points in the first three categories, leaving us with about 670k soldier points in soldiers. Here's how they'll break down:

Cats = 5k each
Pike, LB, HA, Axes = 6k each
XBows = 7k each
War Eles = 8k
Maces and Muskets = 9k
Knights = 10k

We have vision currently on 19 cats, 9 maces, 2 war eles, a musket and a pike on their CP front, for a total of about 205k right there. We don't have vision on the Poly front. In their Globe city they have 5 muskets and an axe for 50k, and in Eastern Dealers they have a musket and axe for 14k (this is the city that is spawning the GP that we have to raze in 2 turns). Total visible power then is 270k. That leaves about 400k in the fog. If we assume the Poly front has similar numbers, then they have another 200k over there, leaving 200k in the fog. Let's say they have on average 6k (1 axe) guarding most of their inner cities, accounting for about another 150k. That means they really have very little (maybe about 50k soldier points), hiding in wait to confront us when we are able to DOW next turn.

My conclusion; RB is in trouble when we jump into the mix