Slayer promotions in Fall Further Plus

[Vermicious Knid]

Starting a new thread to give Valkrionn a break.

To briefly recap....

I've made a number of mechanical changes to the Bannor in FF+ to try and make them a little more flavorful/interesting.

The most controversial change has been giving them access to a line of slayer promotions. Each slayer promotion gives +40% vs. units with a particular promotion, much like the existing Undead Slayer and Demon Slayer promotions.

The slayer promotions were added to give a nod to the lore, which describes the Bannor declaring foes unclean and going jihad on them.

The concerns presented thus far:

1. +40% vs. an entire race is too strong.
2. The potential of stacking several slayer promos vs. a single target is abusive.
3. The general strategy of generating a large number of disposable units with a slayer promo using Crusade.

Opening the floor for thoughts/debate. Are the slayer promos too strong? Is the flavor worth giving the Bannor a potentially nasty weapon? Should the slayer promos be limited or reduced in power? Vanilla or Strawberry?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I sugjest that you make the promotions avalable in parts.
Like: Slayer 1 (+20%) Slayer 2 (+40% total).
Make Slayer 1 require strenth 2 and banor, and slayer 2 require slayer 1, strenth 4 and banor.

That way slayer units are not nerely desposable. They are hard to get but worth it when you get them.

 

[Opera]

Hmm... Isn't there a Bannor unit called Demagog? I don't know what it does since I've nearly never played them. Anyway, you could create a spell giving (75% chance) a Slayer promotion to all units in the caster's stack. Each Slayer prom would have a 75% chance wearoff, be just +25% against a race. Of course, one spell for each race, so you can choose what Slayer prom to add to the stack.

That's basically opposite of the general opinion expressed on the FF+ thread... But I don't think they should have permanent slayer proms. The Demagog could fill the units' heart with anger toward a particular race. That's how I would explain my idea above. Maybe the spells could have a little chance to apply Enraged on the units?

Note that this would keep their crusade theme, since Demagogs are only available during Crusade (I think).

However, if it's not a good idea... I'll find another

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A Demagog is a unit that is halfway between an Axeman and Champion in strength (5 instead of 4 or 6), costs as much as an Axeman (60 , half as much as a Champion), requires Iron Working, requires the Crusade civic (it will abandon you is you leave the civic), and can be spawned through the Bannor world spell and randomly from towns/villages (which get downgraded in the process, which can hurt the economy and is a big reason I almost never use the civic) while running the Crusade civic.

 

[Rutee]

Hm. What about 30% for a Slayer Promo? Stronger then Combat (Which is absolutely universal, can not be countered), weaker then Shock/etc (Which is civ-universal, but can be countered).

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Yeah, the slayer promos have to be at least +30%. Otherwise they are strictly inferior to taking a combat 1-5 promotion. I'm not opposed to reducing some/all of them from +40%...although I'd honestly like to see people play it a bit before making a final decision on scaling it back.

My concern with the fixes involving spells/rituals/etc... is that they might be too good. Giving a stack of units a free situationally strong promo on demand is pretty nasty. The way I have it now requires some investment of resources (a promotion choice) from every unit that benefits.

 

[WarKirby]

Why so things always have to be nice round numbers?

What about giving them +27% strength?

 

[far_wanderer]

My problem is not the mechanical effect. I strongly dislike this idea because I think it is entirely out of place for the Bannor. They have no more reason than anyone else to spontaneously develop a hatred of dwarves, elves, or anyone else except orcs. When they crusade, it is against a society, not a race. The crusade civic already represents that quite well.
If you are going to make a system like this, it should go towards a civ that is actually xenophobic, like the Khazad.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Why so things always have to be nice round numbers?

What about giving them +27% strength?

You, my friend, are delightfully contrary.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

My problem is not the mechanical effect. I strongly dislike this idea because I think it is entirely out of place for the Bannor. They have no more reason than anyone else to spontaneously develop a hatred of dwarves, elves, or anyone else except orcs. When they crusade, it is against a society, not a race. The crusade civic already represents that quite well.
If you are going to make a system like this, it should go towards a civ that is actually xenophobic, like the Khazad.

Sure they do. Read the lore text under their description in the civpedia. They are the most blatantly jihadist civ in the game, with further emphasis being provided by the fact that they actually went to hell because Bhall fell.


If they decide that elves are "unclean and in league with hell"...then elfslayers emerge. It is all about the crusade.

 

[far_wanderer]

Sure they do. Read the lore text under their description in the civpedia. They are the most blatantly jihadist civ in the game, with further emphasis being provided by the fact that they actually went to hell because Bhall fell.


If they decide that elves are "unclean and in league with hell"...then elfslayers emerge. It is all about the crusade.

My point is that they would not decide that elves are "unclean and in league with hell", but that the Ljosalfar or the Svartalfar were. You've got them going after races, but civilizations are where they focus their aggression. If they went out to cleanse the Lanun, they would not begin to hate all other humans, but that's what you have them doing with the slayer promotions. The Bannor actually have the best excuse of all the civs to not look at race at all, because they are directly related to Orcs.

And I did check the lore entry for the Bannor:
"People of all races flock to the city to swell the ranks of the Orders, the Halls of Sabathiel have a constant stream of visitors coming to pay tribute or ask favors of his priests, and the bazaars and markets attract traders from far and wide, catering to the needs of a multiracial, multinational, and multicultural army and administration."

 

[WarKirby]

But still, nobody has come up with an answer. What IS elf/orc/dwarf slaying?

With things like Undead or Demon slaying, you could understand things like consecrated weapons. or training in how to kill something that cannot bleed or feel pain, aiming for decapitation and dismemberment, rather than thrusts or wounding strikes as you would use against a living target.

But how do you train in "elf slaying" ? If you stick a sword in an elf, they'll die, same as anything. They don't have a uniform fighting style, and are capable of adapting and learning as much as any sentient being. The only thing I can think of would be poisons that specifically affect elven biology, but poisoning your blade is pretty moot if you've just cut your enemy's head off with it. They're dead either way.

I really don't think elf, dwarf, orc, lizard slaying make sense.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

But still, nobody has come up with an answer. What IS elf/orc/dwarf slaying?

With things like Undead or Demon slaying, you could understand things like consecrated weapons. or training in how to kill something that cannot bleed or feel pain, aiming for decapitation and dismemberment, rather than thrusts or wounding strikes as you would use against a living target.

But how do you train in "elf slaying" ? If you stick a sword in an elf, they'll die, same as anything. They don't have a uniform fighting style, and are capable of adapting and learning as much as any sentient being. The only thing I can think of would be poisons that specifically affect elven biology, but poisoning your blade is pretty moot if you've just cut your enemy's head off with it. They're dead either way.

I really don't think elf, dwarf, orc, lizard slaying make sense.

I don't think it represents particular weaponry or tactics...it represents zealous fury. Just like the enraged or morale promo adds to power. The Bannor in question has convinced himself that the group targeted plans to drag the world down into hell...and he is driven to stop that by any means necessary.

So, if we are trying to imagine how this would look: The Bannor Elfslayer is willing to ignore pain, strikes with no mercy whatsoever, and keeps coming forward with great intensity. He doesn't take breaks, relax by the campfire, or chase tavern wenches when the commander isn't looking. He is sustained and motivated by righteous hate to seek out his chosen foe. The Dwarves over there? He'll fight them if ordered, but he isn't nearly as excited about it.

 

[Valkrionn]

My point is that they would not decide that elves are "unclean and in league with hell", but that the Ljosalfar or the Svartalfar were. You've got them going after races, but civilizations are where they focus their aggression. If they went out to cleanse the Lanun, they would not begin to hate all other humans, but that's what you have them doing with the slayer promotions. The Bannor actually have the best excuse of all the civs to not look at race at all, because they are directly related to Orcs.

And I did check the lore entry for the Bannor:
"People of all races flock to the city to swell the ranks of the Orders, the Halls of Sabathiel have a constant stream of visitors coming to pay tribute or ask favors of his priests, and the bazaars and markets attract traders from far and wide, catering to the needs of a multiracial, multinational, and multicultural army and administration."

The main thing there is that most non-human civilizations are a single race. The only flaw in that rule are the dwarves. There are even two elf-slaying promotions, one is just autoacquired from the other atm. Can easily split it into elf and dark elf, and then you've basically got the ability to declare a Civilization unclean.

Hell, how about this: Add an effect promotion to all Human civs, one for each. It does nothing, other than allow for a Lanun-slaying, Elohim-slaying, etc promotion. Or just do one for ALL civs, and drop the racial slayings, so ones like vamp slaying will affect the whole Calabim civilization. Then, give them a new ritual, that is rather expensive, checks who they are at war with, and, for each opponent, creates a building in the capital which spawns a building in all cities, granting the appropriate slayer promotions, and placing it on all Bannor units in the field as well? So a little ways into the war, when war-weariness begins to build, the priests will begin screaming that the enemy is unclean, evil, lawless, and must be destroyed, filling your armies with righteous rage? I'd honestly LOVE to see the AI Bannor doing that.

 

[Rutee]

That's.. sort of an easy in, isn't it? It's flavorful to use anti-Civ promotions, but a ritual that adds a blanket bonus against an entire civ to every unit ever at no additional cost beyond the ritual? That doesn't seem a /little/ powerful?

 

[far_wanderer]

The main thing there is that most non-human civilizations are a single race. The only flaw in that rule are the dwarves. There are even two elf-slaying promotions, one is just autoacquired from the other atm. Can easily split it into elf and dark elf, and then you've basically got the ability to declare a Civilization unclean.

Hell, how about this: Add an effect promotion to all Human civs, one for each. It does nothing, other than allow for a Lanun-slaying, Elohim-slaying, etc promotion. Or just do one for ALL civs, and drop the racial slayings, so ones like vamp slaying will affect the whole Calabim civilization. Then, give them a new ritual, that is rather expensive, checks who they are at war with, and, for each opponent, creates a building in the capital which spawns a building in all cities, granting the appropriate slayer promotions, and placing it on all Bannor units in the field as well? So a little ways into the war, when war-weariness begins to build, the priests will begin screaming that the enemy is unclean, evil, lawless, and must be destroyed, filling your armies with righteous rage? I'd honestly LOVE to see the AI Bannor doing that.

That would work, but at that point you've gotten to the thing that seems odd to me about this whole idea: Why not just make crusade give a combat bonus? You're looking for something to represent righteous fury at heathens during a holy war, right? Crusade already exists for exactly that purpose, just add to it to get what you want.

 

[Valkrionn]

I dislike that actually. The Bannor are nearly flavourless early game..... This ritual would be available throughout the game, rather than relying on a late game civic.

 

[Opera]

What about a unique military building enhancing the training rate of units and given newly built units a free promotion? I see the Bannor as greatly military, with, say, military training for every people in the state.

By the way, thanks MagisterCultuum for the tidbit about the Demagogs

 

[Mylon]

I honestly think all of the promotions need an overall nerf. 20% -> 15%, 40% -> 30%. If someone gets a tech lead, and then uses that to also get an experience lead, they can become very hard to kill.

 

[Valkrionn]

What about a unique military building enhancing the training rate of units and given newly built units a free promotion? I see the Bannor as greatly military, with, say, military training for every people in the state.

By the way, thanks MagisterCultuum for the tidbit about the Demagogs

I think THAT part is actually well covered by Crusade, seeing as you begin gaining military units from towns.