Slow movement for Submarines
- Thread starter redhulkz
- Start date
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
Not really. Older (and even current) diesel-electric subs are considerably slower than most modern surface warships. Nuclear subs are faster, but can't keep up with most modern destroyers, frigates, etc.
ShiplordAtvar
Texan by the grace of God
I was under the impression that while cruising speeds/top speeds for boomers and fast surface ships were within a few knots of each other, a sub still has a shorter mission range due to fuel, supplies, etc.
*disclaimer* I don't have 35 years experience in the US Navy. Or any, for that matter. */disclaimer*
*disclaimer* I don't have 35 years experience in the US Navy. Or any, for that matter. */disclaimer*
Actually, nuclear subs have top submerged speeds roughly equal to the faster destroyers and cruisers, around 30-35 knots. Their hull shapes make them actually faster underwater than when surfaced. However, when going at anything over 10-20 knots they make a lot of noise and thus are easily detectable by enemy sonar, so their cruising speed tends to be down around 10 knots, slightly slower than the oil-fuel-guzzling surface ships, so a five-square move is close enough for me.
If I had my druthers, the nuke sub movement would be six and the conventional sub would still be four, but the detection rules would be heavily modified:
- all sub detection at a one-square distance would be automatic only when the sub uses more than half it's movement allowance in the preceding turn.
- all sub detection at two-square distance would be automatic only when the sub uses it's entire movement allowance the preceding turn.
- all sub detection not covered by the above is at 20% chance for each of your subs/destroyers within detection range during the turn.
- if an enemy sub is fortified for the entire preceding turn the 20% detection chance lowers to 5%.
Of course, the fact that the AI can "see" all subs would nullify this, so perhaps a rule that the AI cannot attack a sub without first having legimately detected it would help balance it out.
*disclaimer* - I spent 8 years as an officer in the U.S. Navy, most of them on sub-hunting destroyers and frigates.
:fish: :rocket:
If I had my druthers, the nuke sub movement would be six and the conventional sub would still be four, but the detection rules would be heavily modified:
- all sub detection at a one-square distance would be automatic only when the sub uses more than half it's movement allowance in the preceding turn.
- all sub detection at two-square distance would be automatic only when the sub uses it's entire movement allowance the preceding turn.
- all sub detection not covered by the above is at 20% chance for each of your subs/destroyers within detection range during the turn.
- if an enemy sub is fortified for the entire preceding turn the 20% detection chance lowers to 5%.
Of course, the fact that the AI can "see" all subs would nullify this, so perhaps a rule that the AI cannot attack a sub without first having legimately detected it would help balance it out.
*disclaimer* - I spent 8 years as an officer in the U.S. Navy, most of them on sub-hunting destroyers and frigates.
:fish: :rocket:
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
btw, in my games I made subs (regardless of their engine) a lot faster to simulate their ability of surprise attack and / or to dive and hide...
Originally posted by redhulkz
how about the attack and defence stats of sub and nuclear sub?
to reality ,how do u think it should be ?
In the CFC Units list, the conventional sub ratings are listed at 8/4/3 and the nuclear sub at 6/4/3 - this can't be right. The C3C civilopedia shows the conventional sub at 8/4/4 and the nuke at 8/4/5. If they were to put my detection/speed rules into place, I'd also adjust the conventional sub to 12 attack and 2 defense, and the nuke to 14 attack and 4 defense. These values would reflect the fact that post-WW2 subs are probably going to be able to sink the first ship they attack, but that because their stealth is their best defense they're going to be much easier to sink when they've been found.
And while I'm on the topic, I'd raise the shield cost for the nuclear attack subs - any country can buy a diesel boat or two, but nuclear power has a big cost in infrastructure and training outside of the expense of actually building the reactor.
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
regarding sub speed" IglooDude hit it right on the head.
Today's modern nuke subs have top cruising speeds of around 30 knots but the slower a sub moves, the quieter it is.
Today's modern nuke subs have top cruising speeds of around 30 knots but the slower a sub moves, the quieter it is.
now i finally learn something about sub speed..
and ya do u think a first strike by a nuclear sub can sink a battleship?
regarding the battleship.. i think 18/12/5 is too weak.. a lucky destroyer can sink a powerful battleship in first try.. i think thats incorrect
so i'm thinking of modding it to 22/16/5
and ya do u think a first strike by a nuclear sub can sink a battleship?
regarding the battleship.. i think 18/12/5 is too weak.. a lucky destroyer can sink a powerful battleship in first try.. i think thats incorrect
so i'm thinking of modding it to 22/16/5
Prismhead
Chieftain
I have a problem with a frigate being able to sink a nuclear sub.
I have nuclear subs. The best the computer has is frigates and galleons.
I attack a stack of frigates and sink one. Then the other two frigates sink my nuclear sub. There should be some lines that can't be crossed. Come one.
I would have no problem with a destroyer sinking my sub...but a frigate?
The frigates should flee in fear of my sub.....with them scratching their heads and shaking in their boots wondering what magical creature could have silently sunk their "mighty" frigates.
I have nuclear subs. The best the computer has is frigates and galleons.
I attack a stack of frigates and sink one. Then the other two frigates sink my nuclear sub. There should be some lines that can't be crossed. Come one.
I would have no problem with a destroyer sinking my sub...but a frigate?
The frigates should flee in fear of my sub.....with them scratching their heads and shaking in their boots wondering what magical creature could have silently sunk their "mighty" frigates.
I serve on board a Nuclear Submarine. They can go as fast as any large surface ship such as a destroyer or bigger. As far as attack, I think they are horribly represented in Civ III. A submarine is capable of destroying anything out there, and despite the fact that the surface boats know it is there and may have a good idea where it is, the actual process of getting an accurate fix is another story. It is far easier for a sub to get a fix on a surface boat because it can "see" what it is doing, while a destroyer has rely on mostly sonar. Yes submarines make more noise going fast, but in a combat situation going somewhere at 3 knots, a submarine is nothing more than a hole in the water. Believe it or not, submarine crews will often times intentianaly make noise in order to assist surface crews in finding them during training operations (I've hit the hull a few times with the sledge hammer myself). Can't get much valuable training if you never even find the sumbarine, and if a sub doesn't want to get found it wont be.
Civ III can not 100% accurately represent everything. Because you can't have two units of different nationality in the same square at the same time, you can find a sub with anything if you happen to try to move into it's square. Anyhow, I think that if they made nuke subs as fast as destroyers and gave them a much higher attack value that would be fair. To answer redhulkz, a first strike by a sub could definately sink a battleship. But to prevent throwing the game balance off, I think that the defence value should still be kept low. The current system for finding subs is also fair enough, I don't think it should be too overly complicated.
Civ III can not 100% accurately represent everything. Because you can't have two units of different nationality in the same square at the same time, you can find a sub with anything if you happen to try to move into it's square. Anyhow, I think that if they made nuke subs as fast as destroyers and gave them a much higher attack value that would be fair. To answer redhulkz, a first strike by a sub could definately sink a battleship. But to prevent throwing the game balance off, I think that the defence value should still be kept low. The current system for finding subs is also fair enough, I don't think it should be too overly complicated.
Nexushyper
Warlord
First, I agree with the above two sub experts that served time on subs. From what I have read and heard (as I am in the military too just not Navy) they are very accurate.
Second, I'm no expert on subs, nor nuke power, however I do remember reading somewhere, or hearing on the discovery channel, or the like, that a nuclear reactor on a ship such as nuke sub can go 20 years (or longer is it?) without refueling since it's using fuel rods for the reactor. As for supplies, is 30 - 45 days that a sub can go submerged? I think I heard/read this in the same place as about the reactor. Either way, it's teh supplies (Food etc) that will limit the subs mission range not fuel. Also, the sub can resupply at any carrier group as they have dozens of supply ships in a carrier group. As for water and air, (again correct me if I'm wrong) nuke subs can get all the air and water they need from the ocean water.
Anyways, I do think nuke sub speed should be faster, as should all the ships in CIV, and I have moded it so for me.
(sorry for spelling errors I have no time to proof read as I need to get to the doctors office cuz I might have acid reflux)
Second, I'm no expert on subs, nor nuke power, however I do remember reading somewhere, or hearing on the discovery channel, or the like, that a nuclear reactor on a ship such as nuke sub can go 20 years (or longer is it?) without refueling since it's using fuel rods for the reactor. As for supplies, is 30 - 45 days that a sub can go submerged? I think I heard/read this in the same place as about the reactor. Either way, it's teh supplies (Food etc) that will limit the subs mission range not fuel. Also, the sub can resupply at any carrier group as they have dozens of supply ships in a carrier group. As for water and air, (again correct me if I'm wrong) nuke subs can get all the air and water they need from the ocean water.
Anyways, I do think nuke sub speed should be faster, as should all the ships in CIV, and I have moded it so for me.
(sorry for spelling errors I have no time to proof read as I need to get to the doctors office cuz I might have acid reflux)
Your recollection is correct regarding nuclear reactor fuel - it lasts years and is independent of the speeds, but refueling is a major shipyard job. Nuclear-powered ships/subs are limited only by crew endurance, food, munitions, and (in the case of nuclear aircraft carriers) jet fuel for the embarked air wing. Subs do "make" their own air and distill their own fresh water, too.
Derekroth is also correct (at least in my surface ship experience) with what he says regarding modern Western subs being near-impossible to find at slow speeds, at least when they're not launching weapons. CivIII just can't (and isn't designed to) replicate real submarine combat.
one thing LACKING in civ3 is that a sub can see a destroyer 2 squares away , but a destroyer can only see a sub at 1 square distance.. this feature reflect the 'stealthness' of a sub.
too bad this feature is not in civ3 anymore.
the moment a sub sees a destroyer through its periscope, the destroyer sees u too
and can a sub realise there's another sub passing by close if they are both moving damn slow?
too bad this feature is not in civ3 anymore.
the moment a sub sees a destroyer through its periscope, the destroyer sees u too
and can a sub realise there's another sub passing by close if they are both moving damn slow?
HalfBadger
The Great Whackyness
Isn't this the same as the Tank vs Spearman idea?
Ivan the Kulak
King
Maybe what we need for the tank vs spearman issue is a "cannot defend against future era" flag. A unit flagged with this can defend against stuff from the next era, e.g. a spearman could stave off a knight or cavalry, but if a tank attacked it would simply be overrun, the spearman might have a chance to remove one hitpoint from the tank to reflect decreased readiness after the slaughter. Problem is, how do you get the AI to upgrade its units in a timely fashion? This is where the strategic resource issue becomes a problem.
RazorChain
Naked Emperor
The issue with the sub is that it has "only" 4 in defense...so it is relatively easy for Frigate to sink a sub, whereas it is a freak chance that the spearman destroys a tank. The issue with the spearman can be easily fixed with adding 2hp to all units....to average out resaults
alpha wolf 64
Byte me
As coded, subs are almost useless because the AI knows where they are at all times. I turned on debug and watched all the AI ships beeline straight to my subs from 20-30 tiles away. 
To simulate modern sub attacks, I'd give them no attack and many tactical missiles. Unfortunately, we cant do anything able earlier subs in way of a torpedo. (ship carrying a torpedo "ship").
To simulate modern sub attacks, I'd give them no attack and many tactical missiles. Unfortunately, we cant do anything able earlier subs in way of a torpedo. (ship carrying a torpedo "ship").
