Smegged's shadow training game thread

[smegged]

This is the Shadow Thread for Smegged's Training Day Game


* We're going to have some blurred results because of players finding out things in their versions of the game when they explore in different directions and do different things. This will lead to foreknowledge of some game data that would not be accessible in a normal game. This is unavoidable here, but I ask that players give thought to this and make whatever effort they deem appropriate to base their decisions on what is known in the Official Game. Don't bend over backward, just... pay attention. We are aiming here more at learning than winning, but you don't want to get used to having bonus information.

* We're going to have lots of confusion about this, and also more "contamination" from "alternate timelines" if I try to run everything in one thread. Therefore, I have concluded that I should run ONLY the Official Game in the original thread, and open a shadow thread for everything else.

* The original thread is for the Official Game. What shall be posted there is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

* This thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

* Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. IE, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions.


Everybody is shadowing the game but not part of the Roster, or who in on the Roster but NOT currently "Up", should post their turn reports here. This will include me, when I am not Up.



As for how to post files with your reports, there are a few simple steps.

1) Please identify your savegames. This is ESSENTIAL, so that nobody ever gets files confused. That could waste a lot of time and cause major hassles. Please adopt the follow convention:

Official Turns: no need to do anything special. Just "Elizabeth of the English, ###year" is OK. For OFFICIAL TURNS ONLY.

Shadow Turns: Name them "Smegged, Shadow MyName, ###year.sav"
Examples:

Smegged, Shadow Smegged, 2550BC.sav
Smegged, Shadow Borealis, 750BC.sav
Smegged, Shadow Voodoocat, 50BC.sav
Smegged, Shadow ObserverXYZ, 1000AD.sav

IMPORTANT: if your savegame doesn't observe the naming protocol and you post a shadow turn with "Elizabeth of the English" I will NOT deal with that file, and you will not get any feedback on that turn. No second chances, so do what is appropriate to remind yourself. This is important to SAVE TIME and preserve our energies for the game instead of wasting them on sorting files that are inadequately labeled.


2) Please identify all files related to this game in the following formats:

For Official Turns: gamename-civ-date.extension
Examples:

smegged-english-4000bc.zip
smegged-english-3500bc.zip
smegged-english-50ad.zip

For Shadow Turns: gamename-shadow-yourname-date.extension

smegged-shadow-smegged-3000bc.zip
smegged-shadow-borealis-500ad.zip
smegged-shadow-shdwlord-850ad.zip


3) Currently there is some problem at the CivFanatics file server regarding CAPS for file extensions (.ZIP .JPG etc). So please make sure your files have their extensions in lower case. This issue may have been resolved, I am currently unsure.


4) When you go to upload a file, you have to click Reply to one of the threads, then scroll down to the bottom of the forum reply page. On the far right at the bottom is an Upload Files option. Click that, it opens a mini-window, you can upload up to three files at a time.

5) Once the files are on the server, you have to include a link to them in your post, where appropriate. You can link to images with the IMG vb Code button above the body of your reply message, and can link to zip files with the HTTP:// button.

I keep a shortcut for use in pasting the URL in a text file on my desktop, so I don't have to remember the URL and don't have to type it over and over. Here's a copy:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/

Just add your filename to that in the IMG and HTTP:// buttons.


The game is under way. You'll find the 4000BC save file and more information in the official thread.


- Smegged

Edit: thanks to Sirian for the format and much of the content of this post

 

[Borealis]

Here's my shadow of smegged's first 30 turns. (By the way, smegged, the proper pronoun to use with me is "she.") As I haven't seen smegged's report yet, I'm trying to log this as I would a QSC- I'll switch to smegged's official style once the official thread starts up. Blank spaces means nothing interesting happened other than scouts exploring and me hitting the end of turn button.

4000 BC (1) London founded after scout and worker reveal good enough land nearby to start.
London starts warrior; science goes to 100%, and research is started on Bronze Working.

3950 BC (2) Worker M cow SE

3900 BC (3)
3850 BC (4)
3800 BC (5)
3750 BC (6) London builds Warrior; starts Scout. Warrior fortifies for MP and defense.

3700 BC (7) Scout notices Zulu warrior SE of London. We buy Warrior Code +10 gold from Shaka for Alphabet.

3650 BC (8) Worker R.

3600 BC (9) London builds scout; starts settler. Scout gets Ceremonial Burial from hut near Zulu city.

3550 BC (10)
3500 BC (11) London's cultural boundaries expand.

3450 BC (12) Worker M other cattle square NW of London.

3400 BC (13)
3350 BC (14)
3300 BC (15) London builds Settler; starts Archer prebuild for Spear. Settler is sent to hills just above the dyes. Science rate dropped to 80% to avoid deficit.

3250 BC (16)
3200 BC (17)
3150 BC (18) York founded and starts archer prebuild for Spear. I trade Shaka Ceremonial Burial for Bronze Working. Production in London and York switched to Spearmen. Research switched to Masonry. Science to 90%.

3100 BC (19)
3050 BC (20)
3000 BC (21) London builds Spearman, and starts Settler. Worker ordered to build a road to the grass+ square near York.

2950 BC (22)
2900 BC (23)
2850 BC (24) Contact with China via his wandering warrior. Mao trades me Masonry + 10 gold for Alphabet and Pottery, becoming Polite. Research started on Writing.

2800 BC (25)
2750 BC (26)
2710 BC (27) London builds Settler and starts Spear. Settler sent to coastal tile that will grab the nearby grass+ squares without overlapping London and York.

2670 BC (28) York builds Spear, which fortifies for MP and police duties, and starts Settler. Hut in jungle to the SW gives us maps. The scout to the SE notices a barb camp, and runs away.

2630 BC (29) Worker M grass+ square near York.

2590 BC (30) Nothing happens aside from our Scout running away from the barb warrior that's chasing it... unless the AI interposes a unit, it should escape.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/smegged-shadow-borealis-2950bc.sav

 

[smegged]

Originally posted by Borealis
(By the way, smegged, the proper pronoun to use with me is "she.")

Fixed

I'll critique your turn after I post my turn tomorrow. I have played it.

As an aside, I have actually gone ahead and played to 2550 BC. Out of habbit I counted the first turn as an inherited turn . First point of weed goes to me. We will be playing from this point, so if the shadow turns wish to go to that point, then that is fine. If you want to play one less turn, that is fine too .

 

[LKendter]

@smegged - You may want to use this utility to announce the expected end of turn - it is helping my training day game.

Originally posted by ControlFreak
LKendter -

BTW, SirPleb posted this utility under the Mods/Utilities Forum. I uploaded it. Hopefully you can use it to set the end date of the next turn correctly.

 

[smegged]

Thanks LK, it's pretty useful . But it still doesn't help on the first turn (since the "current" turn counts as turn 0 in the calculator and 4000 BC is really turn 1), but it's a useful utility nonetheless. Thank you for bringing it up.

 

[infoman]

I will send write up later. Had to get back to work. Attached is my save.

 

[voodoocat]

Ummmm. I tried downloading the 4000BC save and the zip file was empty

 

[voodoocat]

Nevermind, I tried using winzip and it worked

 

[smegged]

I just tried downloading the zip file myself, and the save was there. As two other people have already played the game, I don't think there is anything wrong with the zip. Please try it again.

Fixed? Good .

 

[voodoocat]

Yeah. I was using the zip utility built into Win XP and it showed as empty. Stupid MS

 

[smegged]

First a couple of minor points.

What is a QSC?
Please zip all of your save files up. This makes them slightly smaller, and reduces the probability that they will be corrupt.

To the actual game critique...

You make a good start here. You scouted to make sure the original start was in a good spot. You also remembered to start research in 4000 BC, which means we get one turn of research more than we would if you had waited until the popup.

I will make some comments about where you founded. The starting spot was, in my opinion, the second best place to found the capital. It pulls in all three bonus food tiles, but it is not on the coast. It aslo has less hills/mountains in range than one tile due west. This means that in the end game you will have lower production. Other than those few points, it wasn't a bad spot.

Building a warrior first was however, since THIS early in the game you are fairly safe from being invaded. A scout (if available) is almost ALWAYS a better choice. There are exceptions though (like if you are in a super-cramped position (like in the horse feathers epic hosted by realmsbeyond)). In that situation a second scout would not have been necessary. You can always increase the lux tax if you are going to go into disorder.

One advantage to the original start position was that you got tile improvements faster than I did.

On tech trading. This early in the game it is almost always not a good thing to trade tech. Unless you know that your opponent has less contacts than you do, you will probably get ripped off. Alphabet is the most expensive of the first tier techs. Warrior code also happens to be the second cheapest tech. If you look at my tech trading, you will note that I started research on the cheapest tech (ceremonial burial), and pulled warrior code for FREE out of one of the goody huts (I got three goody huts due to the early second scout, two of which were productive).

So as a good rule of thumb, get more than one contact before you start tech trading. Also, you want to be trading as much as possible between two civs that don't know each other. There is almost no compelling reason ever to buy a tech @ 2nd civ pricing UNLESS you have a guaranteed buyer (again, look at my game).

Trading ceremonial burial for bronze working was not a good idea. You had already gotten at least half way to bronze working, and instead of researching it, you traded for it. It would have been best to finish research on it and either let shaka research ceremonial himself, or use ceremonial to trade for his next tech.

Overall grading: B-

count: 2, warrior before scout, and tech trading.
3, initial scouting, 2nd city placement, worker useage

 

[smegged]

Just a reminder to all that you still have around 18 hours to post your turns.

 

[voodoocat]

4000 BC (01) - Move settler west to settle next to the coast. Start working on bronze working
3950 BC (02) - Change production to scout. Science set at 90%
3900 BC (03)
3850 BC (04)
3800 BC (05) - Scout built, working building road towards next city location
3700 BC (06)
3650 BC (07)
3600 BC (08)
3550 BC (09)
3500 BC (10)
3450 BC (11) - Warrior built, changed to settler
3400 BC (12) - Goody hut with Ceremonial Burial found
3350 BC (13)
3300 BC (14)
3250 BC (15)
3200 BC (16)
3150 BC (17) - Masonry and Warrior code traded to the Chinese for Alphabet and Pottery
3100 BC (18) - Built Settler
3050 BC (19)
3000 BC (20) - York founded
2950 BC (21) - Goody hut with map of the region
2900 BC (22)
2850 BC (23)
2800 BC (24) - York builds warrior
2750 BC (25)
2700 BC (26) - London builds settler
2650 BC (27)
2600 BC (28) - worker starts road to bring silks to London
2550 BC (29)
2510 BC (30) - Nottingham founded

Somewhere in there I discovered Bronze working.

I'm going to play my shadow of the 2nd turn and also my real turn tonight after work.

 

[smegged]

Shdwlord are you still playing this game? Since you signed up I haven't heard a peep from you.

As for the rest of you. Borealis seems to be progressing along at lightning pace . Unfortunately I'd like to critique everybodies first move before moving onto the official second move. Please don't play the third round yet.

Infoman, I'm still awaiting a report. What went on in your game and what were the reasons for your decisions?

Finally, voodoocat, I will get around to your critique tomorrow afternoon/night. I ran out of time today. I apologise for the lateness. A couple of your moves appeared very good, while others appeared.... not so good. But I'll get to that tomorrow.

-Smegged

 

[infoman]

Smegged, sorry for the delay. RL was taking up a lot of time.

4000BC (1) Moved scout one square N to see if any other resources are available. Decide to move Settler to same square since it is hill and will have incense and cow in immediate radius and another cow after growth. Move worker 1 square west to cow.

3950BC (2) Settle London on hill, starts warrior. Start research on ceremonial burial. Move scout south. Worker mines cow.

3900BC (3) Scout moves south & worker mines.

3850BC (4) Scout find dyes south of us and worker continues mining cow.

3800BC (5) Scout continues south and west.

3750BC (6) Meet Shaka. Trade Alaphabet for Warrior Code.

3700BC (7) London builds warrior starts another. Warrior moves SW.

3650BC (8) Warrior & scout move. Worker starts road to cow.

3600BC (9) see above.

3550BC (10) see above.

I lost track of turns here.

3200BC (17) Scout get Bronze working from GH. London Builds settler, starts second scout.

3150BC (18) Incense connected to London, mine started. Settler moves SW to new city site.

3100BC (19) Settler & scout move.

3050BC (20)
3000BC (21) London builds scout start spearman. York founded, starts spear.

2950BC (22) Scout moves.

2900BC (23) Scout moves. Meet Mao & trade alphabet & Bronze working for masonry + 10g.

2850BC (24) Scout moves.

280BC (25) Discoer Ceremonial burial. Start Mysticism. (to try and get Oracle first.) Scout moves.

2750BC (26) London builds spear starts settler. Warrior in London awakes & moves south for next city site.

2700BC (27) Scout & warrior move.

2650BC (28)see above

2600BC (29) Worker starts road between London and York. Trade CB to Shaka for 60G (All he had).

2550BC (30) York builds spear starts settler. Scout moves & finds southern zulu border.

2510bC (31) London builds settler, starts spear. Settler heads south to get dyes.

2470BC (32) Warrior, scout & worker move.

2430BC (33) see above.

Sorry I went over. I lost count of turns. I checked diplo each turn and reported if anything happenned. Shaka gennerally either did not have anything to trade or I could not get him to lower his price. I am trying to get to where I can build the Oracle first that is why I am going that tech route.

 

[shdwlord]

4000 BC: Hmmm, looking at the minimap I see that we are in the NW corner, and I see coast to the east, giving us one direction to expand, south. I move the scout NE, then NW, ending up on the hill directly north of his starting position, to expore the coasta bit before deciding where to found London. I was tempted to move the settler NE, but decide to move N to bring the incence online faster, to move onto the coast, to keep both cows in range, and since we are at the top of the map and there is probably not any inhabitable land to the north, it seems like the best chance for not wasting potential land. Worker moves NW to mine the cow, and with F6 I select ceremonial burial.

3950 BC: London founded, scout started. Scout moves SW, then W onto the mountain. Worker begins to mine the cow. Science to 100%, CB in 18 turns.

3950-3850 Scout follows west coast.

3800 Scout has hills 1 square SW and S, so goes SE 1, then SW onto the hill.

3750 Scout heads SW onto the next hill.

3700 London finishes scout, heads 2 S. Will explore to the north with the culture border expanding. Other scout heads south onto a plain, and east onto a hill. London has started a third scout.

3650 Worker finishes the mine, begins a road. Scout near london heads 2 SE onto a hill on the coast. SW scout moves S, looking for a clear tile to get out of the forest, and spots a Zulu warrior across a river on a hill, 2 away.

Zulu scout approaches our scout just S of London.

3600 exploring

3550 third scout done, London MMed to max food, growth to 3 in 6 turns, settler in 10.

3500 worker completes road, moves onto incense.

3300 London grows to size 3, lux raised to 20%

3200 London completes settler, begins granary. Settler heads for hill 4 away, to the SSE. SW most scout discovers Warrior Code from the Alemanni tribe.

3150 Ceremonial Burial learned, Bronze Working began. Worker finishes road to incense, heads south/southeast to build a road on the bonus grassland, planning on moving to cow and mining/roading it after road here is complete, and come back to this square later, after the better ones are.

3000 York founded on the hill. begins a barracks, London can produce settlers, and york will supply veteran militia. Normally I play on huge maps, so I am not used to starting this close to someone, not sure if I should build the barracks first or not.

We are the third largest, behind the Iroquois and the Aztecs.

2950 Road finished, worker moves over to the second cow.

2710 Chinese warrior found by a scout.

Zulu warrior/scout heading SE of their capital, going for a large supply of ivory.

2630 Cow is mined, begin a road.

2590 Chinese border and unescorted settler found with our scout. If it was a warrior, I would try to attack, since china is so far away.

2550 London completes granary, begins a settler.

smegged-shadow-shdwlord-2550BC.zip

 

[smegged]

I'm not usually this slow, but time slipped away from me tonight after a very busy day at work. I promise I'll have your critiques up by tomorrow this time. In the meantime, pick up my save, and play the next 10 turns. And Borealis, go read a book or something (j/k).

 

[smegged]

Your initial move was a good one. And while your reasons weren't as detailed and explained as mine, your reasoning was very sound . You also remembered to start bronze working on the first turn (but if I read it correctly, you didn't switch to full science until the turn after, which, while not completely was pretty close).

Producing a scout to start with was also a very good idea. Another thumbs up. Your build order was pretty good (2 scouts then a warrior). If I play as an expansionist civ, I usually use this order myself. I'll make general comments on the settler in another post.

However, major on the worker actions. I can only really think of one situation where you WOULD build a road directly towards future settlement locations. And that is when the land-grab phase is nearly over. That is NOT the case here. You are wasting valueable early game worker turns that could be spent improving your capital (for more settlers faster, or more military between settlers, or more population, or all three). I almost think that my initial worker turns were wasted on the road. Almost.

When did you make contact with the zulu and the Chinese? I cannot really make any comments on your tech trading without this knowledge. However, in the early game, it is best to make sure to get full miser prices on tech. Recently, I've noticed that the difference between a good player and a great player is their tech trading game. By the industrial ages you should be trading tech later. But more on that later.

I liked both of your city locations as well. These would have been my choices. Nottingham is stealing a good 1st ring location from the Zulu as well.

All in all an above average turn. Though the major worker weed drops you down a bit.

Overall: B

2 - Good city locations (all of em), good build order
0 (no minor weed)
1 - early worker turns

 

[smegged]

I believe that your initial scout move cost you greatly here. When you make the decision to move your capital, you have to really think things through. There are usually a few factors that come into play. Things like coastline, freshwater, food bonuses long term potential and to a lesser extent resources dictate whether you should move or not. And of those, the most important are fresh water and food bonuses, generally in that order. If you start as expansionist, you get a scout which will generally be used to provide you with as much information about the location as possible. Hills and mountains provide the most information. Also, it is a good idea to NEVER FORGET that your scout has a movement rate of 2. EVERY busted tile of fog is valueable, especially in the early game. Another idea is to never forget that coastline reveals a lot of information. In this start you could see that there was coastline to the west. You could also see a mountain. This was what got me to send my scout east first. And by doing so, I picked up a much better site.

"Why is it a much better site?" you ask. Well there are several reasons. Three food bonuses is one of them. Both locations (yours and mine) are on the coast. Yours has better defense, and slightly higher long term sheild potential. In the long term, your site would have more potential, but for a capital, food and growth rate is EVERYTHING. You need enough sheilds to build the settlers and granary fast enough, but other than those handful of sheilds needed for that, FOOD is everything. And for that reason your site was not as good as mine.

Food = population, and population = power. Sirian himself told me this in my first succession game, and I have never forgotten since. No more scenic mountain villages for me . Now mine are scenic production powerhouses, or scenic mountain fishing cities. Your move wasn't too bad, but missing out on the cattle is big. It's the subtleties that make the difference in civ III.

You started on a warrior first. This was not the best idea IMO. I always try to have two scouts going first. You are not going to have an AI attack you in the first couple of turns. Scouting is is important for any civ, especially an expansionist one. Expansionist and commercial together can produce the STRONGEST civs in the long term. If an expansionist civ can pick up an early settler, they are laughing. If they pick up early techs, that's vital early turns saved, or money that does not go into enemy civs pockets.

For some good news, going for the cow first was a very good idea IMO. Always improve your strongest tiles first. In the very early game mines are usually more important than roads as well. Connecting the lux so early was a soso move. It was good, as it means you can reduce lux tax earlier, but it also means that you are neglecting improvement of your better tiles.

You probably traded our tech away a little too cheaply. I would have held onto the techs, or only traded away one of them. Not major, but still important to think about.

However, on the upside, your second and third city placements were very good in relation to your capital.

Overall: C+

count: 2 - good worker useage, good second and third city placements
count: 1 - initial scouting and first city placement

Oh, and as a note, when I said the only wonders we would go for are the oracle....etc. it was meant only as a guide. The idea was that we would not bend our civ towards getting wonders.

 

[smegged]

I liked your initial reasoning for your starting moves. However, read my response to Voodoocat for my thoughts on the actual cities. Your reasoning was more thorough though, and deserves extra marks, even if it was the least optimal location. You also remembered to set our research. That was a good move IMO.

You built more scouts than anyone else. Including myself. However, as can be seen by looking at the save files, the differences between fog revealed probably weren't worth sacrificing the early warrior (which are good for military police).

Normally I play on huge maps

Ah ok. The lager the map the more powerful that the expansionist trait actually is. Getting 3, sometimes 4 or 5 scouts is a very good move on most huge maps. On smaller maps, you can make do with slightly less. We are playing a standard size map, with standard land.

Don't get so comfortable with farmers gambits that you neglect early military. One day you will get burned. I refer you to my report on Epic Eight
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1029139905 Sure, the loss was my fault, but it was my fault because I built no military. I would personally never opt to build a 40 sheild barracks before building any military. Never. Even if I do it after a single warrior. You don't want to be paying maintainance on a barracks that early in the game if you can avoid it. Military in the early game is free, and so should not be ignored. It also provides valueable military police.

Overall it was a good turn, and you were the only other player to build a granary, even though it was after your initial settler.

Chinese border and unescorted settler found with our scout. If it was a warrior, I would try to attack, since china is so far away.

This again would have been a debatable move. It will cost you in the long run. Especially on higher difficulty. You can forget all about it on deity. Not so much for the war factor, but for the reputation factor. A large part of a successful players repetiour is the ability to trade well. This is hampered by ancient era wars like this. The other civs don't like you for doing it. They see you as an agressor and are likely to target you more often in the future.

Overall it was a good set of turns. I also note that you were the only player to build a granary.

Overall mark: B+

count: 1 - NO MILITARY!!
count: 2 - good reasoning for initial city placement, granary!