So if the even numbered Civs are the better ones, your expectations for 7

I'm just saying that of all the things they could invest their time in, maxing out the graphics probably isn't the best choice. The engine has and will improve with each iteration; that's kind of a given.

And I'm saying graphics improvements is one of if not the only one element that justifies another iteration. Why buy the same game twice ?

Please don't give them ideas. :cringe:

I don't like GaaS usually, but I must say that in the case of Civ, it wouldn't be that silly. :D ;)
 
And I'm saying graphics improvements is one of if not the only one element that justifies another iteration. Why buy the same game twice ?
Because Civ6 is a mess? And I'm not just talking about the bugs, which could be fixed. It has serious core design problems that are not so easily solved: it's systems don't work well together, many of its ideas are good but poorly implemented, religious victory was just plainly a bad idea, etc. Also, I've bought every Civ game since Civ3 and played every Civ game since Civ2, and I've never felt like I was "buying the same game twice"--not even with Civ6, which is probably the most clearly built off the infrastructure of its predecessor. (Also, I'm not saying there should be no graphical improvements; I just take for granted that there will be. It doesn't seem like something worth worrying about.)

I don't like GaaS usually, but I must say that in the case of Civ, it wouldn't be that silly. :D ;)
I think it would be. Civ6 has run its course; NFP is more than enough evidence that it's time for the team to move on. (Actually, IMO it's evidence that the team already had moved on and left NFP in the hands of interns. :shifty: ) But if Civ7 were on a subscription or loot box model, it would get a hard pass from me.
 
Because Civ6 is a mess?

Couldn't we say that for all Civs ? Past, present and future ? It's impossible to contempt everyone. There will be lacks for everybody, the AI will not work as intended because the player is nasty, there will not be 1000 unique civilizations and 10000 leaders to choose from so people will not buy it, etc. etc.

They are all the same game man. Personnally, the last Civ game I bought was Civ5, and that was an error. I bought it for the sake of multiplayer. (DRM : Steam) Huge disappointment, it was all broken. I bought Civ4 because in my illegit version there was a bug in multiplayer, but it was still there with my legit version. (got fixed a little after) I bought Civ3 for the multiplayer too, but I'm not sure. I never bought Civ2 that I had on a crack CD by a schoolmate. As to Civ6, I had it free on the Epic Game Store. As you see, I'm hardly interested by the shy tweaks that have been the whole series since its creation, mostly by the trend that attracts players in multiplayer. But I'm still there, mostly for my ideas. I didn't get paid nor hired for them. So I think it's fair. (not :mischief: )

But if Civ7 were on a subscription or loot box model, it would get a hard pass from me.

Maybe I misunderstood the acronym, but I didn't mean loot boxes by any mean. :p Subscription, why not. Aren't expansions and Passes kinds of subscriptions already ? To be honest, when talking about GaaS, I did think about infinite expansions or passes, with the base game that can be played alone with one single purchase. Just like what they did with NFP, but with no end until a pretty long time. (when there would be no more public I suppose, and Firaxis and 2K urging in catastrophe yet another sequel)

Well that's pretty much what did happen here I'm sure. NFP might have been a test, but the max public got reached pretty quickly, so no more buying.

What's more wonderful to attract more public, or rather the very same, in a "brand new" iteration that is in fact just the same... crap ? Lured by novelty. Novelty ALONE has a deep power of attraction, no matter what it is constituted by. And it's kind of sad. :(
 
Couldn't we say that for all Civs ?
To different degrees. Civ6 has problems with its core design philosophy. It's also been expanded past what I personally think the game can handle. (To be clear, I loved Civ6; I think it's a great game. It just has so many great ideas that were not implemented well.)

Subscription, why not.
Because subscriptions are basically robbery? I'm happy to pay for games--devs deserve to be paid for their hard work--but not more than once.

Aren't expansions and Passes kinds of subscriptions already ?
Not really? I mean, if I had paid the same in subscription that I paid to just buy the DLC and expansions, it would come out to a few cents a month--and my playtime is low compared to many people's here.

To be honest, when talking about GaaS, I did think about infinite expansions or passes, with the base game that can be played alone with one single purchase. Just like what they did with NFP, but with no end until a pretty long time.
That sounds awful to me. An intern turning out cheap content ad nauseum seems like the fastest way to kill a franchise.

I'm hardly interested by the shy tweaks that have been the whole series since its creation, mostly by the trend that attracts players in multiplayer.
I think this is where our difference in perspectives come from. Multiplayer players seem much more willing to put up with subscription models (e.g., in MMOs). I'm a single-player-only player. I don't want other people in my games, and I'm not willing to fork over money to a company on a regular basis for a live service model. :p
 
To different degrees. Civ6 has problems with its core design philosophy. It's also been expanded past what I personally think the game can handle. (To be clear, I loved Civ6; I think it's a great game. It just has so many great ideas that were not implemented well.)

Well one can say the same with any Civ. 1UPT ? Pouah, garbage ! SODs ? Garbage ! AI ? Garbage ! Garbage ! Garbage !

Because subscriptions are basically robbery? I'm happy to pay for games--devs deserve to be paid for their hard work--but not more than once.
[...]
Not really? I mean, if I had paid the same in subscription that I paid to just buy the DLC and expansions, it would come out to a few cents a month--and my playtime is low compared to many people's here.

You can subscribe and unsubscribe, and subcribe and unsubscribe again. If you were subscribing few cents a month during one month, that would be robbery. :mischief: But ok, no subscription for you, so let's get along with expansions.

That sounds awful to me. An intern turning out cheap content ad nauseum seems like the fastest way to kill a franchise.

Would you call Civs expansions cheap content ? New shiny civilizations to discover and play, braaaaannd new modes, new units, new features, etc. Isn't that attracting ? :mischief: That can be endless. And for half of the original game cost ! :eek:
And don't forget, expansions can modify the game in depth ; after all, the devs have the DLLs. :deal:
 
The big difference between expansions and NFP-style content is that expansions can be large and all of the new mechanics can be interwoven and work well together. You can't do that with smaller, NFP-style releases because each release can't assume that any other one is available. This is why Firaxis always includes prior expansion gameplay changes in new expansions. It's also why games from other studios (e.g. Paradox) are full of systems that don't play well together. It's really no good.

If Firaxis (or 2K) really wants a subscription service, then that's fine. They can offer a season pass kind of thing that adds new civilizations to the game every month and we can be happy with monthly patches and all that. But game mechanics should come through well-designed expansion packs.
 
My expectations(note not my wishliat but what I think is coming):

New graphic engine with the map having different altitudes

Limited stacking, creating armies with support units. No separate tactical combat like call to power.

Citizens having different cultures, like a city could be 75% French, 25% Russian, depending on neighboring empires.

More simpler but powerful leader/civ bonuses. Based on how Beach said Civ 6 abilities where sometimes big lists.

Revamped religion system, if included in base game.

Quests and/or random events
 
My expectations(note not my wishliat but what I think is coming):

New graphic engine with the map having different altitudes

Limited stacking, creating armies with support units. No separate tactical combat like call to power.

Citizens having different cultures, like a city could be 75% French, 25% Russian, depending on neighboring empires.

More simpler but powerful leader/civ bonuses. Based on how Beach said Civ 6 abilities where sometimes big lists.

Revamped religion system, if included in base game.

Quests and/or random events
This would make me extremely happy.
 
I think there is a very very strong core of ideas and concepts in Civ6, it just needs a fair amount of polish and reworking, so I hope Civ7 is more of an evolution than revolution.

I like the lower unit density (less micromanagement), but the strict 1 UPT makes you have to solve a sliding tile puzzle every time you move your units, which is frustrating totally uneccessary busywork, since the lower unit density basically makes the need for stacking limits superflous anyway.

Builder charges are a way simpler more elegant system than workers. The only way to improve this is the option to buy tile improvements. Honestly I’d get rid of workers/builders completely and use the district system for everything; all you really need is a Farming District, a Mining District, etc. Less units cluttering the map. If you are producing builders to then move around the map to then say make a farm you are essentially doing this anyways, just with far far more micromanagement involved.

I like the way the district system makes you “play the map”. If this game had more actual warfare in it it would make strategy a LOT more important than just “turtle in city” like earlier titles, since doing so leaves your districts open to pillaging.

I would honestly merge culture and religion. The way religion works in this game feels weirdly tacked on, as amusing as the Apostle Fights are. I’d bring back the ability to steal tiles with enough culture that earlier titles had too.

The concept of “Loyalty” is a good one, the implementation is the typical Civ6 misfire. It should be based on culture, not population. Basing it on population turns it into Yet Another Snowball Mechanic.

If you are going to keep the concept of Gold and Dark Ages, it had to be out of the player’s controls. It’s way way too easy to game. It’s a natural anti-snowball mechanic, but you’ll have to have the balls to actually punish the player in the lead

The AI being a pinata needs to be addressed first, last, and foremost. If the AI can’t or won’t do anything other than passively filling yield buckets to hit an arbitrary win condition, then the game becomes incredibly boring to anyone not a passive sandbox builder. I mean this is the franchise that made Ghandi a symbol of nuclear violence and it might as well be a Sim game.
 
I think there is a very very strong core of ideas and concepts in Civ6, it just needs a fair amount of polish and reworking, so I hope Civ7 is more of an evolution than revolution.

I like the lower unit density (less micromanagement), but the strict 1 UPT makes you have to solve a sliding tile puzzle every time you move your units, which is frustrating totally uneccessary busywork, since the lower unit density basically makes the need for stacking limits superflous anyway.

Builder charges are a way simpler more elegant system than workers. The only way to improve this is the option to buy tile improvements. Honestly I’d get rid of workers/builders completely and use the district system for everything; all you really need is a Farming District, a Mining District, etc. Less units cluttering the map. If you are producing builders to then move around the map to then say make a farm you are essentially doing this anyways, just with far far more micromanagement involved.

I like the way the district system makes you “play the map”. If this game had more actual warfare in it it would make strategy a LOT more important than just “turtle in city” like earlier titles, since doing so leaves your districts open to pillaging.

I would honestly merge culture and religion. The way religion works in this game feels weirdly tacked on, as amusing as the Apostle Fights are. I’d bring back the ability to steal tiles with enough culture that earlier titles had too.

The concept of “Loyalty” is a good one, the implementation is the typical Civ6 misfire. It should be based on culture, not population. Basing it on population turns it into Yet Another Snowball Mechanic.

If you are going to keep the concept of Gold and Dark Ages, it had to be out of the player’s controls. It’s way way too easy to game. It’s a natural anti-snowball mechanic, but you’ll have to have the balls to actually punish the player in the lead

The AI being a pinata needs to be addressed first, last, and foremost. If the AI can’t or won’t do anything other than passively filling yield buckets to hit an arbitrary win condition, then the game becomes incredibly boring to anyone not a passive sandbox builder. I mean this is the franchise that made Ghandi a symbol of nuclear violence and it might as well be a Sim game.

Yeah, everything you mention has some good and bad. 1upt: good because less unit management. Bad because more unit micromanagement. Charges good because easy and convenient. Bad because too much hassle (especially late game when you get a flood or tornado and have to go through tile by tile repairing). Etc...

Some stuff like religion, as dumb as the apostle fights are, it's a big step up from previous games where you literally had no mechanism to defend religious spread. But then again, it's such a pain when you see a bunch of AI apostles walk all over the map and now you have figure out where to place your guys, block them in, worry about zone of control, still worry about fighting over rivers, deal with the weird way that religious units are embarked and you can attack into water, but you can't attack out of it, except sometimes when maybe you can because I still don't understand all the movement rules, etc...

Loyalty I'm a lot less pessimistic on than some people. I think it's actually one of the mechanisms that has the least downside. Yes, it's too dependent on population, and I absolutely hate how when I capture Paris suddenly Orleans becomes loyal to me because those Parisian citizens are immediately 100% mine. But loyalty at least has nuance, you can control its influence based on policy cards, governor placement, and even other stuff like religion and happiness, and it prevents the AI settling right on your doorstep and applies a natural DMZ that can be hard to encroach into.

But overall, figuring out a good way to make it tougher when you're in the lead will be the big key. I still want a challenge even if I am winning, but I also definitely don't want to invest 20 hours into a game and then be hit by a Mario Kart Blue Shell and be knocked back an era in tech. I do think the golden age system could have been that, except that it definitely hurts by being too easy to rack up score when you're ahead. Like if I just finished back to back golden ages and am coasting through the game, it's too easy to be the first to the next era, the first to build a national park, the first solar plant, the first size 20 city, piling up great people, etc... that it's almost impossible to miss the next golden age. There's a part of me that wonders how different the game would play with the simple change of dramatic ages mode being even more dramatic, where anytime you hit a golden age, you 100% are guaranteed a dark age the next era. Or maybe that's a little too mean, but if Dramatic Ages mode was basically that after a golden age, the next era either you hit the marker and go into a normal age, or you drop into a dark age, so that you can't chain back to back golden ages together. At least if there was something that forced a pause in the system the next era, you might still have to fight a little bit.
 
Of course some may debate whether the even numbered Civs are actually better, feel free to discuss that here. I fully admit that's my opinion/observation that 2, 4, and 6 are the superior titles. Not to say the odd numbered ones were bad. I enjoyed them at the time (though I never actually played Civ 1). I think 5 was the best it could be given how many serious changes they made to the formula, though it took two expansions to get to that point. Of course Civ6 really didn't become that great until later updates/expansions. It's hard to believe we used to not have map search or a city remembering what it last built or a queue, but I still liked it out of the gate unlike 3 and 5.

I admit I'm a little worried about Civ7. But they seem to have a good team, one of the strongest they've had so there's that. My main worry is taking the game too far from what it's supposed to be. Of course that is debatable. Can they come up with new ideas to keep it fresh while maintaining that core empire building gameplay? Are there any new ideas that haven't been done? Obviously Humankind tried some new ideas with mixed success. I'm not sure some of those ideas can ever work. I do feel a certain element of roleplay is a strong point of Civ6 and Civ5, so I would rather keep the one civilization entire game aspect the same.

What are your views of the entire Civilization series and the future of the series?

2 and 6 definitely. I've never played, 4, myself (nor 5), but have played 1 and 3. I thus can't comment on ALL the even-numbered ones.
 
I’d bring back the ability to steal tiles with enough culture that earlier titles had too.
This can get a little complicated if they keep Districts in the game. City A steals a tile from City B that has a Campus on it, so City B builds another Campus to make up for the lost research. Then the tile that was stolen by City A flips back to City B, and now City B has 2 Campuses violating the "one Specialty District per city" rule.
 
Builder Charges / Worker Actions: Both Civ3 and Civ4 (and actually Civ2, if we go way back) allowed a tile to be improved more than once. Mine early, irrigate later. Or replace farms with workshops. As the needs of your empire changed over the decades/centuries, your use of the land changed. I know that one can repurpose tiles in BERT, so I'm going to guess that was also an option in Civ5. Never played enough Civ5 to have that memorized.

Does Civ6 even allow a player to change a district into something else? Once I have placed a district -- or completed it -- I always thought that the tile was fixed for the rest of the game.

Unlike @aieeegrunt , I would prefer the option to change how tiles are used over the course of my empire's development.
 
The concept of “Loyalty” is a good one, the implementation is the typical Civ6 misfire. It should be based on culture, not population. Basing it on population turns it into Yet Another Snowball Mechanic.

Reverting to culture-based loyalty takes me back to Civ IV's TSL maps, pitting London against Paris in a battle that would almost inevitably first see the Channel go, and then London itself. Personally, it would make more sense for higher population to weigh against loyalty, especially at/near housing/amenity thresholds, in combination with cultural identity.
 
Does Civ6 even allow a player to change a district into something else? Once I have placed a district -- or completed it -- I always thought that the tile was fixed for the rest of the game.
Answer to your first question is no. You are right, you can't remove a district in Civ6 without a mod, which is in fact one of my "can't play without" mods.
 
Civ5 > Civ6

In the same time, Civ5 to Civ6 transition was by far the least revolutionary in the series (compare enormous jump from civ4 to civ5 on all levels, good and bad). There are multiple core systems almost identical in those games on the fundamental level, and multiple long standing issues that are 10 years old. So much time has passed for us to know which issues simply aren't going to be solved if we remain within those core systems.

Examples:
- In this tech era it is impossible to design not disastrous AI for 1UPT combat on strategic level, which simultaneously doesn't tank performance and turn times. Everything in 1UPT in civ context makes it a perfect programming nightmare to design AI for.
- 1UPT also brings too much micromanagent, and as civ6 showed - it even extends to "unstacked cities"
- Both games failed to invent tall vs wide economic balance, with civ5 being to tall biased (due to too punishing happiness system) and civ6 being too wide biased (due to barely existing happiness system). Something is conceptually fundamebtally wrong here.
- On map religious units are tedious and boring to use. Attempts to make them fun but still simple have failed.
- People love some aspects of this kind of religion system, but it has gotten stale and remained almost identical over last 10 years, some fundamental changes to religion are needed to make it feel more fresh and deep.
- Both game have diplomacy that kinda sucks in some ways, is too arbitrary and illogical and for example doesn't enable coalitions, vassals, world wars etc (intuitive obvious things people desire)
- There is not a single reason to have warmongering penalties, they infuriate everybody and add nothing fun or clever to the game.
- The origin story of Gandhi nuke meme is a complete myth an the meme is awful
- Both games have a big snowballing and endgame problem, with civs power levels being set in stone by the renaissance era. Although I think Civ6 is somehow even worse in both regards than civ5. Civ5 BNW ideology system was awesome in the way it disturbed the world and introduced some chaos in the late game, why the hell wasn't it reintroduced? It should have been made even more prominent, with industrialization, World wars and cold war shaking the established order to the core.
- Nobody likes the way difficulty levels works in both games.
- People want more terrain variation, such as biomes.


So I'd expect civ7 to do something with those things which got stale or haven't worked over last two games. Things that I'm sure will remain/expand cuz everybody loves them:
- Religion you design and control somehow
- Great people and their unique skills
- City states, their quests and abilities
- Great works and archeology
- Trade routes physically connecting cities
- Climate and environment stuff
- Natural wonders and national parks
- Barbarians which transform and can be negotiated with
- Some obvious stuff such as plenty of strong wonders, many 3d leader very distinctive civs, plenty of resources...
 
Last edited:
This is all clearly a matter of personal opinion, not verifiable fact.

My own view is that 2, 3, and 5 were best, 1 and 6 good, and I hated 4.
 
Back
Top Bottom