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So much for throwing water on a fire!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by bhsup, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Complete article.

    Pretty darned cool. I wonder, though, is it "seawater" or just "saltwater" that it works on? Seawater has other stuff. Anyhoo, how would you like to pull into your local service station and tank up with seawater sometime in the future?

    Side benefit #1: Start using seawater in sufficient quantities and we'll nullify rising sea levels due to the alleged global warming!!

    Side benefit #2: WAR! That pesky destroyer eluding your shots? Just set the water around it ablaze!!
     
  2. carmen510

    carmen510 Deity

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    The problem with side benefit 2 is that then we would be violating endangered species protection by burning all the water on Earth. ;)
     
  3. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    details, details...
     
  4. taper

    taper Meet Tux

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    Did you know that if you run an electric current through water, that'll produce ignitable gases too? I'll be impressed only if the energy needed to power the rf generator is less than the energy captured from the burning water.
     
  5. Mango

    Mango Tasty Fruit

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    If so, FREE ENERGY!
     
  6. LightFang

    LightFang "I'm the hero!"

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    What's so good about burning salt water?

    This isn't a sarcastic question, I really want to know.
     
  7. skadistic

    skadistic Caomhanach

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    If you can burn it you can create energy with it. If it produces more power then it takes to "burn" it would be rather profitable to use it to move steam turbines and in turn (pun intended) make electricity.
     
  8. LightFang

    LightFang "I'm the hero!"

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    Hey, that's really nifty. Thanks for explaining it in silly layman terms. :)

    That would suck if it wasn't cost-effective though. We can hope! Running on water! Who would have thought?
     
  9. woody60707

    woody60707 Deity

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    Wait? why would we burn it? The biggest set back with Fuel cell cars have been it cost too much to get hydrogen by it's self?
     
  10. Miles Teg

    Miles Teg Nuclear Powered Mentat

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    We don't need hydrogen, we just need saltwater. Seawater, water with table salt, it makes no difference!
     
  11. woody60707

    woody60707 Deity

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    Also, This isn't the 1st time people have claimed such a thing, some even get shown on big network news stations.

    But to many people have cried wolf before. It would be nice, but I would bet that even if this does work, it take more energy then can be gained form it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2B2HldNdns - Engine that runs on water. As seen on Fox News! So it must be true!
     
  12. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    Another day, another crank.
     
  13. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Hey, if people believe hydrogen will save the infinite growth economy why not saltwater power? They're equally unimplementable at this point (though cute gadgets can be made with either, my GF has a clock that runs on water).
     
  14. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    OK, so it's hitting seawater with radio waves (article calls this radio-frequencies, and it's a little hard to see what they're referring to with their mangled science. I suspect it's in the higher energy part of the spectrum than radio, as they are too low energy to break most chemical bonds, including the O-H bond), releasing hydrogen, and then igniting it.

    Now this hits the same snag as the mythical "water engine". If you break H2O apart to get H2 and then burn it to give H2O, you aren't coming out ahead on energy. At best it's a way of storing energy, and as with the "water engine", one which is not that efficient. It's essentially the same as the "water engine", except he's using EM exposure rather than electrolysis to release the hydrogen.

    While the article specifies seawater, I doubt the impurities in the water are relevant. The quantity of hydrogen containing species other than H2O in seawater is trivial, so it's a straight water in, water out job.
     
  15. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    OK then how come the ocean doesn't explode into flames when I point my walkie-talkie at it?:(
     
  16. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Uh ? didnt scientist say water has about 4 times the energy of Oil
    (or was it 1/4 the energy of oil)
     
  17. b etor

    b etor princess

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    John Kanzius is cool for an old guy.
     
  18. Flak

    Flak vBülletin Förum

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    And this is what I find odd about the articles on this process. Not a single one of them go into the process after the ignition. This is pretty darned important. It is entirely conceivable that this process could work to excite water molecules to the extent that the bonds holding the hydrogen and oxegen seperate. Microwaves excite water molecules to produce heat. Maybe there is indeed another frequency (perhaps something especially harmonic?) in the electromagnetic spectrum that somehow encourages the molecular bonds to break. The hydrogen could then, when out of the range of the emf, resume its normal propensity to match up with any oxegen in proximity to form water, particularly when its of sufficient energy (temperature) to bind with any oxegen around, thus 'burning'.

    It's certainly interesting, but its not free energy, and not entirely unheard. Separating water molecules into hydrogen and oxegen, and igniting the results is a fundamental bit of chemistry that can be reproduced in a variety of ways, no problem.

    The question is: Is this a relatively efficient process when compared to other existing means of producing useful energy i.e. heat, kinetic motion, electricity, etc...?

    It is not a question of whether you get more energy out of it than what you put into it. The would violate the Laws of Thermodynamics (and be very, very cool). It is a question of whether the percentage of returned usefuly energy is sufficiently large when compared to other forms of deriving similar useful energy, in this case heat. There are a lot of things to take into consideration from that standpoint. *shrug* There might be something here. Producing emf waves of most kinds is a relatively straightforward process for us these days. This guy could produce the right frequency using a generator at home!

    So calculate the energy it is taking you to produce your desired frequencies for the required amount of time. Measure the temperature of the hydrogen flame. Knowing the well-established energies required to separate and form the water molecules, do some math, and get the efficiency. Shouldn't take very long.

    About it being salt water, it might be that the emf is actually causing electric current to run through the water. If the current is of sufficient strength, it will cause the water molecules to break their bonds to form hydrogen and oxegen. Everybody knows that salt water is much more conductive than pure water. And there are other solutes that cause water to be even more conductive. It's something to be looked at, but I rather think that this story will disappear once those efficiency tests are performed and the results confirmed.
     
  19. Shaihulud

    Shaihulud Deity

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    I have difficulty seeing how radio frequency could liberate H from salt water, or cause it to burn.
     
  20. JohnRM

    JohnRM Don't make me destroy you

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    I shall maintain my skepticism until this leads to a prototype generator with positive feedback.
     

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