So...No Germany Update?

[bcaiko]

Thinking over the announced BNW changes to the current Civs, I realized that Germany wasn't on that list. Given the Zulu's UA, I think a number of us expected Germany to be getting an overhaul.

Though Venice and Austria, as well as the Shoshone and America, are variations on the same theme in their unique abilities - a big part of both Germany's and the Zulu's main ability are the exact same thing with just slightly different numbers. And post G&K with the barbarian nerf (they appear a lot less than they did in Vanilla), Germany's UA can't exactly be described as stellar.

When addressing the changes to the current Civs, Ed Beach did say there may have been other changes to Civs that he could remember, but I find it hard to believe that Ed would forget an update to a Civ's UA versus a small change to a UB or UU.

What do folks think, is Germany getting a surprise UA update? Should it?

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Nope, next question.

 

[Loucypher]

They might be holding some cards to the chest still to surprise us on release day. Patience.

...I'd really hate it if they kept Germany as worthless as it is though.

 

[Deggial]

I would say, keeping your hopes too high in this respect is nothing but betraying yourself. Face it, guys: If there would be major (or even minor) changes, they would have mentioned it in the meantime.

 

[cairnsy44]

As much as I hate to say it, I fear that will be the case regarding Germany. No changes worth mentioning. they were a lot more fun in Civ IV.

 

[asmartlittleman]

Don't forget that they added a new barbarian UU the tomahawk thrower which Germany will be be the only civ to have access to. This is essentially a third UU if it stays in camps. Another thing I don't get is when people say Zulu and Germany UAs are essentially the same. They are similar but completely different! Zulus UA has a bigger discount but only applies to MELEE units which after the Medieval age disappear so its only effective for the first part of the game. Germanys UA applies to all LAND units which is the entire game plus they can convert barbarians. I like Germanys UA over Zulus but Impi and the UB are better than Germanys UUs.

 

[Leugi]

Well, it seems that updates are mostly linked to new mechanics, more than "fixing" the (lack of) flavor of A or B civ... See India's changes for instance, it's only a +1 Tourism instead of Gold for Mughal Fort, instead of an UA overhaul.

The only major change was France, and it is steal a gearing towards new mechanics. Technically, you could say Germany can be tied with ideologies, but that's a no no because of Nazism.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Germany, like America, seems watered down, but the Zulu ability isn't directly contradictory. The barbarian chariot replacement should hopefully make up for this.

 

[anewone]

Germany, like America, seems watered down, but the Zulu ability isn't directly contradictory. The barbarian chariot replacement should hopefully make up for this.

It seems I've missed something here, how is America watered down in BNW? Shoshone expansion abilities?

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Don't forget that they added a new barbarian UU the tomahawk thrower which Germany will be be the only civ to have access to. This is essentially a third UU if it stays in camps. Another thing I don't get is when people say Zulu and Germany UAs are essentially the same. They are similar but completely different! Zulus UA has a bigger discount but only applies to MELEE units which after the Medieval age disappear so its only effective for the first part of the game. Germanys UA applies to all LAND units which is the entire game plus they can convert barbarians. I like Germanys UA over Zulus but Impi and the UB are better than Germanys UUs.

Ummm... I think melee count are all units that fire from 1 tile away and recieve return fire, not physically the ones that whack eachother with melee weapons. The ability doesn't go away with muskets. The zulu ability also likely applies to melee naval units as it never specifies.

 

[bcaiko]

They are similar but completely different! Zulus UA has a bigger discount but only applies to MELEE units which after the Medieval age disappear so its only effective for the first part of the game. Germanys UA applies to all LAND units which is the entire game plus they can convert barbarians.

That's semantics. They unit maintence portions of the UA are the exact same bonus with different details. They're too close to each other to be "unique".

I think my posting history betrays the fact that I'm not one to advocate massive changes to existing Civs. But I do very much believe that the UAs of Civs should be and feel unique (even if they vary on a theme). Germany's UA only does that partially now, and it doesn't sit well with me.

 

[asmartlittleman]

I thought muskets were considered gunpowder units but it could be the case that they are both melee and gunpowder.

 

[Ikael]

I think that it won't be remade, and it is a damn pity, really. Germany and most of the vainilla civs were badly depicted and / or designed.

Still, I am holding out to the vain hope that they are purpousedly holding down this information only to be revealed at the last moment since Arabia was VERY modified yet we didn't knew about it until very recently.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Well, it seems that updates are mostly linked to new mechanics, more than "fixing" the (lack of) flavor of A or B civ... See India's changes for instance, it's only a +1 Tourism instead of Gold for Mughal Fort, instead of an UA overhaul.

The only major change was France, and it is steal a gearing towards new mechanics. Technically, you could say Germany can be tied with ideologies, but that's a no no because of Nazism.

Oh, come now. There are plenty of ways Germany could have tied into BNW mechanics without invoking Nazism. They could have gotten a Realpolitik UA with (for example) extra delegates to the World Congress. They could have gotten bonuses to GWAM to reference their high artistic output of the Baroque era. They could have gotten an extra Reformation belief for being the birthplace of the Protestant Reformation (though that, admittedly, would be too close to Byzantium). They could even have gotten a bonus to, say, International Trade Routes with City-States, and had the UA called Hanseatic League, if we weren't being inundated by trading civs already. There's a lot of things that could have been done to Germany, even restricting it to changes made only for BNW mechanics.

 

[JokerJace]

It would really be sad if they kept Germany a dead Civ...

I think many community wishes are debatable, but this one has a (based on the posts I read) 95% agreeing rate. I just can't see why they didn't do anything about it.

 

[Ryoga]

That's semantics. They unit maintence portions of the UA are the exact same bonus with different details. They're too close to each other to be "unique".

If you lump all units together and ignore their peculiarities then I argue that Suleiman's UA is a lot closer to Bismark's than Shaka's.

Bismark and Suleimain can convert barbarians on top on the discount on unit maintenance, Shaka does not.

 

[Leugi]

Oh, come now. There are plenty of ways Germany could have tied into BNW mechanics without invoking Nazism. They could have gotten a Realpolitik UA with (for example) extra delegates to the World Congress. They could have gotten bonuses to GWAM to reference their high artistic output of the Baroque era. They could have gotten an extra Reformation belief for being the birthplace of the Protestant Reformation (though that, admittedly, would be too close to Byzantium). They could even have gotten a bonus to, say, International Trade Routes with City-States, and had the UA called Hanseatic League, if we weren't being inundated by trading civs already. There's a lot of things that could have been done to Germany, even restricting it to changes made only for BNW mechanics.

Ok, that's true, there were actually many options... For the sake of it a Great Musician bonus for Germany would have been amazing and very fitting.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Bismark and Suleimain can convert barbarians on top on the discount on unit maintenance, Shaka does not.

Unless he snatches up the relevant Reformation belief, assuming that information was accurate. If that really is a thing that any civ can potentially do now, then Bismarck loses even more of his tenuous uniqueness.

 

[Louis XXIV]

It seems I've missed something here, how is America watered down in BNW? Shoshone expansion abilities?

That's my view, yes.

 

[Ryoga]

Unless he snatches up the relevant Reformation belief, assuming that information was accurate. If that really is a thing that any civ can potentially do now, then Bismarck loses even more of his tenuous uniqueness.

You can't compare an ability that you get from start for free with an ability that you can only get later on by "paying".
The ability to convert barbarians from camps is only worth it at the very start. Moreover Suleiman's already faces the same problem as soon as privateers become available (and he gets completely outclassed since privateers can steal any ship).

But regardless of that let's even say that Shaka gets that "reformation" belief, Bismark in the same time can get another belief or focus on something else and Shaka will still lose a perk in comparison.