So, why Pyramids.

[TheMeInTeam]

I think YOU'RE comically misinformed . I have to question whether you've ever actually tried NTB, since you're implying it makes the game EASIER for the AIs! Also, the stuff I bolded seems to undermine your argument somewhat.

NTB and NTT are different animals. NTB probably makes the game easier, because the AI still takes the same research path and now can't trade its new findings around.

I play on deity and don't recall ever getting 8000 beakers worth of tech with code of laws. I also don't recall getting the pyramids with stone ever 'screwing' me.

I don't get 8k on deity either, although I do get more than other difficulties if I manage to swap it around often. Mids can definitely screw you, but the poor hammer sink is not immediately obvious which is why this is still debated even now.

Remember, it's not when you actually win the game that matters, it's when you bulb Liberalism.

. Amusingly, MIDS lose out there too often.

 

[BenDover]

If no one else picked it up, I don't mind sacrificing 16 turns (how much it cost me during my most recent session) for a decent wonder.

 

[ben-jammin]

I think people are missing the point that on Deity (and to a lesser extent immortal) going for the oracle is a big gamble. Going for the 'mids with stone is never a gamble. You win either way. With the oracle you either win big or totally gimp your start.

If you're playing Deity pangea the 'mids can be a solution to getting boxed in, where beelining the oracle and using all your workers to pre-chop it can be a cause of getting boxed in.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Going for the 'mids with stone is never a gamble

Mids can go ~2000 BC lol. Don't give me that.

 

[babar]

@TMIT
I agree mids should lose out on lib dates, but not necessarily on position relative to your opponents when you get lib (assuming you are not bulbing as much and therefore trading less). If I build the mids I invariably get lib, and in a strong position (still going to be cuirassiers vs longbows, and I have good research/production from settled GPs). I'm sure it isn't as good as clever bulbing/trading, but it requires less thought and diplomacy, and I find it more satisfying.

I don't quite get your point about NTB.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

NTB allows you more wiggle room on when you abuse the same tech-path AI on trades, and thus you can finnegle even MORE value. NTT disables your ability to amass value at all, and is therefore harder while NTB is probably easier.

 

[ben-jammin]

Mids can go ~2000 BC lol. Don't give me that.

Maybe you forgot to read the next sentence.

 

[babar]

I don't tend to finagle more value, although I don't dispute it is possible to do so. Most of the advantage comes from the AIs' inability to get hold of key techs in a timely manner.

 

[cseanny]

LoL. This thread makes me smile a lot. Every situation and circumstance will be different......therefore its' literally impossible to throw out statements saying The Pyramids are "a crap wonder" or on the flip side, the Mids are the most awesome, like ever!

I've played timed games where the earliest finish date wins and 2 of my very good scores beat the competition by securing The Pyramids. So in those particular games it wasn't build the Mids win in 1800 and don't build them 1600 but quite the opposite. And again, a different map could make the Mids horrible and push your victory horribly late.

Hum??

Play the Map .

 

[GKey]

I just wonder how is it possible to get 8k beakers from techbrockering with CoL or MC. Are you playing Marathon ZZZ? Gotcha!

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Earth 18 civs map and maybe you'll get 8K beakers

 

[RD-BH]

LoL. This thread makes me smile a lot. Every situation and circumstance will be different......therefore its' literally impossible to throw out statements saying The Pyramids are "a crap wonder" or on the flip side, the Mids are the most awesome, like ever!

I've played timed games where the earliest finish date wins and 2 of my very good scores beat the competition by securing The Pyramids. So in those particular games it wasn't build the Mids win in 1800 and don't build them 1600 but quite the opposite. And again, a different map could make the Mids horrible and push your victory horribly late.

Hum??

Play the Map .

The Pyramids may be one of the better wonders, yet I win earlier without building ANY world wonders.
I am hard pressed to remember a recent game where I thought mids were worth building.

I find world wonders needless gambles on every map save one, archipelago.

'Play the Map' is a nice sentiment (I've said it myself), but I find it better to 'Play the Game'.

So, what is the optimal map for building mids?
... Traits? expansive, industrious? -or- fast worker?
... Starting city? forest, hills? plains hill start?
... AIs? warmongers, peace-niks, gift-givers?
... and how many of those maps would have to be generated to find one where building mids is better than not building them?

 

[Kallikrates]

Rather peaceful neighbours, industrious leader and/or stone nearby, forests for chopping, mining as starting tech all certainly help.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe you forgot to read the next sentence.

Maybe you forgot about opportunity cost while putting so many into a wonder so early.

 

[ben-jammin]

So early? If the 'mids go in 2000 BC why would you have put 'so many' hammers into it? You likely wouldn't have even started yet.

Failing the pyramids with stone funds research right around the time you've produced some libraries and an academy. If I have stone and the 'mids haven't gone yet I generally build it HOPING for the failgold.

I said 'mids were never a gamble, you said "lol not when it goes in 2000BC." And...? Now you're on about the opportunity cost of building wealth with a +100% modifier while beakers are at their most valuable. Maybe you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't understand the game. Or maybe you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, because none of these points actually fly.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I just wonder how is it possible to get 8k beakers from techbrockering with CoL or MC. Are you playing Marathon ZZZ? Gotcha!

Normal, I am no Maranoob like Serail! But the 8k is CoL for Alpha + junk, then Alpha + junk for Math, then Alpha + Math + junk for MC, and so on. If you don't understand why the Oracle nets me thousands of beakers for 150 hammers something is wrong.

 

[vranasm]

Normal, I am no Maranoob like Serail! But the 8k is CoL for Alpha + junk, then Alpha + junk for Math, then Alpha + Math + junk for MC, and so on. If you don't understand why the Oracle nets me thousands of beakers for 150 hammers something is wrong.

would be better not to exaggerate... alpha is like 500 beakers, math around 450, mC around 600.... too lazy to check.

you would have to get through col at least 15 of 500 beaker techs to somewhat go close to your statement and i don't see enough of them.

Once could argue that thanks to early CoL and switching to caste, generating caste and then bulbing Philo yields you even more, but whatever...

I am hard pressed to believe you get 8k beakers from CoL only even with brokering bought Alpha around.

 

[GKey]

It's plain exaggeration even if you consider snowballing effect. 2-3K max in my experience is what you can get if been lucky. Still 2-3K relatively early is huge and put Oracle as #1 wonder in my eyes.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

>.> Yes I was exaggerating with 8k but I regularly net 2.5k-3.5k beakers from CoL, and it gets to be absolutely nuts with Currency allowing you to be able to broker + sell junk for tons of gold to run slider at 100%. With Currency it is probably closer to 5k beakers you can get from the Oracle.

 

[terriFyer]

I only build The Pyramids when I'm playing as Egypt for historical accuracy reasons